I feel the players expectations have not been adjusted to the game. This is a game set in 'the dark times' where Jedi lore was all but lost and most force sensitives had difficulty tapping into their power.

Not only that, Force Powers can get ridiculously powerful, the use of having to flip a dark side and tap into the emotions or darker side is to reflect the temptation element of the Dark Side. They may feel that doesn't sit well with them, but clearly if they want to use their power, they have to accept that risk. Now once they get to a higher force rating the chances of them rolling light increases and they perhaps will only rarely need to tap into their emotions and get tempted by the dark side.

If I was GMing this group, I would sit them down and make them reevaluate their expectations of being a force user (not a jedi) in the game. They won't be able to activate Force powers if they don't want to take the conflict and tempting offer, that's why it exists and the trade off for not suffering the effects is not activating your precious power. If players have a problem with that...well...either allow them to work within the confines of the game, roll up new characters, or if they get aggressive, point them to the direction of the nearest exit.

The thing is that starting characters aren't jedi or sith, they are little smucks with no real training, at 150 xp (after character creation) you might be (based on how you spent the xp) at the level of a fresh padawan from the prequel trilogy era.

Eh, this has never sat right with me. 150xp given to characters from any other book results in a wrecking ball character probably at the level of the main cast in Return of the Jedi, if not better.

I think it would be easier to conceptualize that there's a special "Jedi Padawan" specialization that has 2 or 3 cheap (like 10 or 15 xp) Force Rating +1 talents at the expense of lacking in real-world skills. Makes more sense that way.

I feel the players expectations have not been adjusted to the game. This is a game set in 'the dark times' where Jedi lore was all but lost and most force sensitives had difficulty tapping into their power.

Not only that, Force Powers can get ridiculously powerful, the use of having to flip a dark side and tap into the emotions or darker side is to reflect the temptation element of the Dark Side. They may feel that doesn't sit well with them, but clearly if they want to use their power, they have to accept that risk. Now once they get to a higher force rating the chances of them rolling light increases and they perhaps will only rarely need to tap into their emotions and get tempted by the dark side.

If I was GMing this group, I would sit them down and make them reevaluate their expectations of being a force user (not a jedi) in the game. They won't be able to activate Force powers if they don't want to take the conflict and tempting offer, that's why it exists and the trade off for not suffering the effects is not activating your precious power. If players have a problem with that...well...either allow them to work within the confines of the game, roll up new characters, or if they get aggressive, point them to the direction of the nearest exit.

From the sounds of it, it seems like the OP's players are more disappointed in the idea that they HAVE to use the dark side in order to consistently use Force Powers. That's a perfectly reasonable objection, hence why I said to frame it as the character weakening himself to use the Force and thus feeding the Dark Side, rather than tapping into the Dark Side directly. After all, it doesn't really make sense if you conceptualize it as someone choosing to use the dark side in order to move some crates, because in their character's mind they'd never do that.

If you're fleeing stormtroopers, and you feel such an urgent need to knock over a stack of crates that you can't stop long enough to use your hands? You're obviously scared. Maybe even edging into panicked or terrified. If anything, using the dark side pips is *more* appropriate than using light side ones.

You're not out for a morning jog, and thinking, "Hmm... Can I knock those over today? Let me give it a quick try!"

You're running from a squad of armored troops with guns who want to stop you, and probably wouldn't object to doing so *permanently*. You *need* to knock those crates over, to buy yourself a little bit of time, or you're going to end up dead. Or worse.

"From the sounds of it, it seems like the OP's players are more disappointed in the idea that they HAVE to use the dark side in order to consistently use Force Powers."

This is exactly the situation for the players.

"From the sounds of it, it seems like the OP's players are more disappointed in the idea that they HAVE to use the dark side in order to consistently use Force Powers."

This is exactly the situation for the players.

Let them know that they *will* get to the point where they don't have to.

Also, make sure they know that using the 'dark side' pips doesn't mean they're going to fall to the dark side and turn into an evil, puppy-kicking, baby-eating monster. They're using emotion to fuel the use of the power. That's not *innately* bad. It's just something that you want to pay attention to *what* you're doing, and why.

Conflict (the thing that gives you the opportunity to move up/down the morality track) doesn't mean 'doing something bad/wrong/evil'. It means being *conflicted*. "Did I make the right choice? Should I have stepped in and helped? Should I have left instead of helping? Can I *really* trust this person?"

"From the sounds of it, it seems like the OP's players are more disappointed in the idea that they HAVE to use the dark side in order to consistently use Force Powers."

This is exactly the situation for the players.

I think the problem becomes that they are not looking at darkside mechanics as they are presented by FFG but instead as other games us them. In other games using a darkside point was something that meant you were a darksider. But in FFG flipping a dark pip isn't the same as using the darkside of the Force. It's more about the raw emotions that come into play.

In previous systems you had complete and 100% control over your emotions when you used the Force. This system interjects a bit of narrative randomness into it. The FFG way takes 100% control out of their hands, which is good since people don't really have 100% control over their emotions and reactions. Sometimes our anger does in fact get the better of us. And later we feel bad about that. That bad feeling is what this game refers to as Conflict. You gained some Conflict from the act that you need to resolve. Some inner turmoil that you have to work through in regards to how you're using your power. Resolving this Conflict can lead to the darkside, but it doesn't have too. Remember you roll the result of conflict at the end of the session (or adventure really). Thus you have plenty of chances to make up for that one act and to absolve your mind over the matter.

By far the light and dark pip use has been one of the better temptation mechanics I've come across in gaming in general.

There's always a chance the player comes out ahead though. And the mechanics work in such a way that in the long run you don't really become a darksider unless you want to. The players need to rethink the Force in regards to how these mechanics work. If you don't look at the Force the same way FFG pitches it, you're ultimately are not going to be satisfied when those pips come up black. Understanding their logic is very important in enjoying the ups and downs of using the Force in this system.

Though admittedly this isn't for everyone.

Honestly only have two or three issues with this system as a GM and asee a player. The biggest one is force rating starting at one. Honestly feel a two works well to start PC's at if they are starting out as force users and not acquiring later. If I could do system myself I would hAve made you get force rating one for career and 1st force using specialization gives you force rating of +1 and any additional specializations don't grab the this after 1st

I like this systems take on the Force. It does a good job of representing Lukes slow build to being a Jedi. It utterly fails at PT and TCW Jedi play though. At least in an out of the box fashion. If you are wanting to start off as PT and TCW Jedi you either need to sharply increase starting XP or play a different system to be honest. But I do love the slow build to power. And I do enjoy the temptation as you build your power. I like how Force use always runs the risk that you tap into darker emotions and passions.

But this is certainly not a Force system that everyone will enjoy, that's for sure.

I like this systems take on the Force. It does a good job of representing Lukes slow build to being a Jedi. It utterly fails at PT and TCW Jedi play though. At least in an out of the box fashion. If you are wanting to start off as PT and TCW Jedi you either need to sharply increase starting XP or play a different system to be honest. But I do love the slow build to power. And I do enjoy the temptation as you build your power. I like how Force use always runs the risk that you tap into darker emotions and passions.

But this is certainly not a Force system that everyone will enjoy, that's for sure.

It's sounding like it does have the potential to get away from the old WEG and d20 "OMG a dark side point give me your character sheet" silliness, however -- yes, I'm exaggerating, but to make a point -- and allow the game to get away from some of the stranger "orange and blue morality" that the Force has sometimes been given.

It's always bugged me that the Force as depicted in some sources pretends that nothing good every comes of any emotion ever -- that there's no such thing as acting from "righteous outrage" and that no one ever saved their universe because the people they love are in it.

It utterly fails at PT and TCW Jedi play though.

Agree with everything else in your post, but not this. If you want PT and TCW Jedi, then you need PCs with lots of XP, which is entirely appropriate, and this game handles that XP influx really well.

Saga or WEG couldn't handle PT or TCW play out of the box either. Saga would require you to start at level 7 minimum, and WEG...well, Jedi would end up dominating everybody else entirely.

I like this systems take on the Force. It does a good job of representing Lukes slow build to being a Jedi. It utterly fails at PT and TCW Jedi play though. At least in an out of the box fashion. If you are wanting to start off as PT and TCW Jedi you either need to sharply increase starting XP or play a different system to be honest. But I do love the slow build to power. And I do enjoy the temptation as you build your power. I like how Force use always runs the risk that you tap into darker emotions and passions.

But this is certainly not a Force system that everyone will enjoy, that's for sure.

It's sounding like it does have the potential to get away from the old WEG and d20 "OMG a dark side point give me your character sheet" silliness, however -- yes, I'm exaggerating, but to make a point -- and allow the game to get away from some of the stranger "orange and blue morality" that the Force has sometimes been given.

I never played WEG version so I can't comment on that, but in regards to the WotoC run, I feel it effectively avoids that pitfall yes. And it also avoids the problem of players never being tempted by the darkside. Since there is always the chance that you roll a dark pip there is always the chance the player may be tempted to give into the "dark side". No more people artificially being good all the time even when the scene may push for a real moral conflict. Now being 100% good all the time will come with real choices, and real consequences. Characters in this system are better tempted. They may find that they can't just use the Force to solve all their problems and do so with a clean moral slate. Real choices will have to be made over the course of playing Force user in this game and I like that.

Agree with everything else in your post, but not this. If you want PT and TCW Jedi, then you need PCs with lots of XP, which is entirely appropriate, and this game handles that XP influx really well.

Well I did mention that you had to sharply increase xp in order to be at PT and TCW level play from the start. But I do feel overall that Saga, and to a lesser extent, represented PT and TCW a lot better than this system does on younger characters. But I also feel those systems were built that way. This system is built around Luke's journey and as such I feel the climb to being a strong Force user is much slower. Not that I see the slow build as a fault. But I do see the slow build as something that in't going to be as satisfying as Saga or d20's more "instant powerz now" style of play for all people.

This has been quite the active topic so I've not read it all through thoroughly but here's my comments to the original post:

First: The players are making a key mistake in comparing what they can do with what a properly trained Jedi can do. They are more akin to Luke Skywalker in A New Hope or MAYBE Empire Strikes Back depending if they got some training from a mentor at all or not. They're largely untrained, unfocused and just learning how to try to tap into the force. Much like your example with Luke and the Lightsaber on Hoth. Most Jedi have numerous years, a decade or more, of dedicated training from Youngling to Padawan to Jedi Knight.

Second: Use of Darkside points doesn't immediately make one bad, evil or mean turning to the darkside. It doesn't need to be frowned upon or looked at as a completely negative event. Yes, it does mean they gain some conflict.. a point or two in general.. but, in the grand scheme of things, they are still likely to have a net morality increase at the end of the session regardless. All in all, not that big a deal.

Thirdly: Their use of the force could potentially be worked into other existing game mechanics. For instance, they gain some advantage on a roll and choose to inflict a setback die on or slow down one of the stormtrooper minion groups chasing them. Narratively, this could be described as using the force to topple some crates, obstructing their passage and slowing them down or obstructing their view and making the shots they're firing more difficult.

Lastly: As others have said, if they really want their use of the force to be more reliable they need to advance their knowledge of and connection to the force through improving their force rating. Even just increasing it by one will give them a significant improvement in chances for getting at least 1 lightside point. Getting it to 3 would be more akin to your standard Jedi Knight.

It seems the players need some help to adjust to this new system.

1. 2-3 conflict in a session is actually a good thing, it slows your race to Lightside Paragon, and what will they do when they have a Morality of 100? BOREDOM...

2. A real Jedi has a Force Rating of 1 when they are younglings. These players are definitely not Jedi and are therefore very different. They are Force Users, but they have not learnt to control their emotions or powers.

3. these PC's don't know they have rolled a Dark Side pip, only the players and their beliefs of what a Dark side pip is stops them using it

At FR 1, they need to understand that Dark Pips are NOT going to be their slippery slope to the Dark Side. They simply won't be rolling enough of them to send them down that spiral. Sure, if they REALLY want to be Paragons, they need to be careful, but they can be pretty free with them and hover around 50 morality just fine. The main barrier I would have would be flipping the Destiny Point. Something about a DP just seems more intense to me than a point of conflict and strain, but I hesitate to suggest dropping that cost, since it represents how using the Dark Side invites Bad Trouble. Perhaps in your case it might be for the best.

The thing is that starting characters aren't jedi or sith, they are little smucks with no real training, at 150 xp (after character creation) you might be (based on how you spent the xp) at the level of a fresh padawan from the prequel trilogy era.

Eh, this has never sat right with me. 150xp given to characters from any other book results in a wrecking ball character probably at the level of the main cast in Return of the Jedi, if not better.

I think it would be easier to conceptualize that there's a special "Jedi Padawan" specialization that has 2 or 3 cheap (like 10 or 15 xp) Force Rating +1 talents at the expense of lacking in real-world skills. Makes more sense that way.

Nah I don't think so, it's just that jedi knights from the PT era are that good, that powerful. These jedi knights are great at the jedi stuff (using the force, lightsaber combat, knowledge stuff) AND they are skilled pilots, mechanics, negotiators etc. In addition the best of them are skilled strategists and tacticians (those that became generals in the war).

With all that in mind it doesn't make strike me as weird that fresh padawans have +150xp.

Agree because 150xp does not make Jedi that are also good at more than the basics of being Jedi. Remember jedi need to spend their xp on talents, force, powers, and then still skills and non force talents. For game balance I understand everyone has the same amount of xp. For playing in the dark times with no real jedi I might even get it. However if we were going to be true to Kotor or even CW timeliness Jedi just have more xp than non-jedi to have what is portrayed. Again balance is understandable when you have 4 players at a table, but if a GM plays true to what Jedi are or players and the GM are in agreement then Jedi have at least 150 more xp then non jedi at any point in time after they reach padawan.

Best way I plan to do this if I play outside of dark times or force awakens is to give non jedi option to do one of the following...

1)Play two characters to give a different option of cool that makes up for jedi being higher xp

2)Play a character who has a group of 5 minions under him. He can get medical treatment on them after encounters unless critical on them is over 100 and then he loses one permanently. Then in game can role play recruiting new ones.

3)Full sized and started droid more than just for narative.

4)Or my favorite a kick ass ship and narative story that offers a lot of advantages that will show up in every session somehow

Again drawing from a Sam Stewart comment during the O66 podcast that discussed Force and Destiny, but a Prequel-Era Jedi would be one with hundreds of XP invested, as they were broadly capable in many things, not just lightsabers and Force powers. In fact, you're probably looking at about 300 additional XP at the minimum, and that's assuming you went Consular/Niman Disciple at the start.

Having played plenty of WEG d6 and all versions of d20, I can agree with the assessment that this system is very much a slow increase in power, very much like Luke's early development in ANH and ESB. d6 got a little funky due to how Force powers were learned (not too unlike spell slots in D&D, only they didn't vanish once used), and that once a PC got to a decent level of competency, they became incredibly powerful and potentially game-breaking with all the tricks they had at their disposal.

Kael is right in that the d20 games were meant more to mirror the prequel-era Jedi. In fact, the OCR/RCR versions both said that a character could not start as in either of the Jedi heroic classes during a game set in the Rebellion Era to account for the fact that nobody was around to actively train new Jedi from childhood.

Saga Edition had Force users be very powerful at the early stages simply due to how the skill check system worked in contrast to how defenses scaled, with one feat turning a low-level Force use from capable to overpowered, and said feat could be taken as early as 2nd level (1st level if playing a Human) to really skew things in the Jedi PC's favor. It was an issue with the skill system overall (namely how the skill bonus was calculated), but Force powers really highlighted that issue.

I guess it was covered in this long thread I decided not to read, but just adding my voice to the opinion one should not always roll.

If we are talking about dramatic scenes out of combat, allow the effect to happen. Of course consideration always needs to come up when talking about NPCs or important scenes. Moving crates is ok in my book without a roll.

Also, if you are unable to engage in civil conversation with a player or he is unable to accept ruling of the one who is responsible for rulings, boot him out. Its a friendly game, not debate club.

I agree that they are over reacting, we have read the rules and it does not really seem that bad, but the idea of using the Darkside seems off to them from a role-play perspective.

I think things will get better in the long run, they are just unhappy right now.

They don't get darkside. They gain conflict which can lead to the darkside but doesn't have to. Big difference.

Remember that this is a narrative RPG, and the rules say don't require a roll if you don't feel it's called for. Instead, be narrative and allow the crate to trip the stormtrooper in front while the rest jump over their clumsy corporal.

It seems the players need some help to adjust to this new system.

1. 2-3 conflict in a session is actually a good thing, it slows your race to Lightside Paragon, and what will they do when they have a Morality of 100? BOREDOM...

...

3. these PC's don't know they have rolled a Dark Side pip, only the players and their beliefs of what a Dark side pip is stops them using it

This is, perhaps, the biggest speedbump me and my players are having to "get it" in this system. Veteran gamers of 20+ years in Star Wars RPGs and the thought of using Dark Side points is anathema (or at least alien) to them. But folks here are right, it's all about the mentality. I really like Kael's description on this; that they're not calling on the Dark Side but on Conflict. On the path towards the Dark Side but ultimately it's up to the PC to determine how far along that path they're willing to walk for the sake of the scene/session.

But the players need to buy in to that mentality, and it's hard to change the old mental pathways...

Again the GM has to decide if he wants a game in dark times or in a different time. In a different time I would give jedi 150 more xp than non-jedi jedi and give non jedi something else to compensate. So I would probably start jedi at 150 xp if padawan. If running a knight game I would start jedi at 300xp and non jedi at 150 xp and again compensate the non jedi in equipement, minions, 2nd character, and or narative bonuses

Again the GM has to decide if he wants a game in dark times or in a different time. In a different time I would give jedi 150 more xp than non-jedi jedi and give non jedi something else to compensate. So I would probably start jedi at 150 xp if padawan. If running a knight game I would start jedi at 300xp and non jedi at 150 xp and again compensate the non jedi in equipement, minions, 2nd character, and or narative bonuses

That something else you give to non-Jedi, should be the same amount of XP.

Instead of getting a lightsaber, the non-Jedi get a large amount of credits to use to buy equipment.

But this is gone over in the rules for Knight Level play already.

Having the Force and a lightsaber will make them feel like accomplished Jedi, and feel pretty powerful. Don't hamstring the Non-Jedi (further) with an XP deficit.

Again the GM has to decide if he wants a game in dark times or in a different time. In a different time I would give jedi 150 more xp than non-jedi jedi and give non jedi something else to compensate. So I would probably start jedi at 150 xp if padawan. If running a knight game I would start jedi at 300xp and non jedi at 150 xp and again compensate the non jedi in equipement, minions, 2nd character, and or narative bonuses

That something else you give to non-Jedi, should be the same amount of XP.

Instead of getting a lightsaber, the non-Jedi get a large amount of credits to use to buy equipment.

But this is gone over in the rules for Knight Level play already.

Having the Force and a lightsaber will make them feel like accomplished Jedi, and feel pretty powerful. Don't hamstring the Non-Jedi (further) with an XP deficit.

Agreed; equal XP for all if you're going to do this.

hirdly: Their use of the force could potentially be worked into other existing game mechanics. For instance, they gain some advantage on a roll and choose to inflict a setback die on or slow down one of the stormtrooper minion groups chasing them. Narratively, this could be described as using the force to topple some crates, obstructing their passage and slowing them down or obstructing their view and making the shots they're firing more difficult.

I really like this, it has the potential to make the player feel satisfied, and look casual enough that other NPC could remain ignorant of the use of the Force.

I can also suggest to drop the Destiny Point flipping when they use DS pips as long as they are FR 1, and explain that as their use of their emotions not so dangerous for falling to the dark side due to their lack of training. When they hit FR 2, which means more training and better knowledge of the Force, then using ds pips become more dangerous and will require again flipping a DP.

Remember that this is a narrative RPG, and the rules say don't require a roll if you don't feel it's called for. Instead, be narrative and allow the crate to trip the stormtrooper in front while the rest jump over their clumsy corporal.

100% agree.