I figure the black sun crime organization has a ton of fighters to field between the cloakshape, scyk, kihraxz, starviper, z95, etc. The capital ships part is harder as I find very few references and have little knowledge from books or comics myself.

I figure cr90 would certainly be something they would have, and wookiepedia says that verrry late in the legends/comics, around 137 after yavin they have possession of at least one MC80 and nebulon-b. Not sure if I want to take ships from the 150-years-later craziness that I know nothing of.

That leaves me thinking about cr90s and variations on that, gozanti cruisers though they would be a redundant role to the cr90, and some other not noteworthy cruisers. Am I missing anything? Might the Black Sun have a dreadnought heavy cruiser, victory star destroyer, anything big? I know they have enormous power in the galaxy, but maybe not in the form of big spaceships?

From the books and such most factions like black sun pirates never got past having a neb b. It was general cr90. Luck freighter s and such

It takes a lot of crew to man something like an MC80 so it is highly unlikely that someone would have a capital ship outside of the Rebels of Imperials. I think the Zann Consortium would be the closest though.

2nd Zann Consortium.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Wars:_Empire_at_War:_Forces_of_Corruption#app_vehicles

They have a few Unique Classes

Aggressor Class Destroyer

Crusader Class Corvette

Interceptor IV Frigate

Keldabe Class Battleship

Vengeance Class Frigate

These ships all had special abilities and weapons. It would be cool to see how they would translate to Armada

For the curious:

Aggessor: lightly armed save for the Twin linked spine mounted heavy weapons. The first was an Ion shot that would neutralize shields, followed by a spiraling plasma shot that did mass damage.

Crusader: faster than most ships its size, it also had and advanced point defense system that could shoot down missiles.

Interceptor IV: Fast missile carrier

Keldabe: heavy conventional armaments along with 4 Mass Drivers that could fire through enemy shields. Also mounted an energy leach that could drain enemy ship energy to power its own systems.

Vengeance: This ship had no shields but made up for it with a heavily armored hull and a cloaking device. This ship also mounted mass drivers which could bypass shields, and a powerful self destruct system that was designed to damage enemy ships.

Note: these modifications were both highly illegal, and highly expensive.

Also of Note: these ships come from Empires At War; the same source as the MC-30, and MkII Assault Frigate.

The Zann Consortium capital ships do seem interesting to me, though I never played that game. It seems they basically only ever feature in the game itself?

For me wanting to make a fleet though, nobody has modeled Zann ships so they just aren't really an option sadly.

You can always proxy with other models until they become available through official channels

For the curious:

Aggessor: lightly armed save for the Twin linked spine mounted heavy weapons. The first was an Ion shot that would neutralize shields, followed by a spiraling plasma shot that did mass damage.

Crusader: faster than most ships its size, it also had and advanced point defense system that could shoot down missiles.

Interceptor IV: Fast missile carrier

Keldabe: heavy conventional armaments along with 4 Mass Drivers that could fire through enemy shields. Also mounted an energy leach that could drain enemy ship energy to power its own systems.

Vengeance: This ship had no shields but made up for it with a heavily armored hull and a cloaking device. This ship also mounted mass drivers which could bypass shields, and a powerful self destruct system that was designed to damage enemy ships.

Note: these modifications were both highly illegal, and highly expensive.

Also of Note: these ships come from Empires At War; the same source as the MC-30, and MkII Assault Frigate.

Don't forget about the VSD which as also in the game.

You are right however that the Assault Frigate MKII and the MC30c was in there as well. This is one reason I thought initially that FFG was using Empire at War for some of their models and so far they have used a lot of them.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Criminal factions do not operate capitol ships. Criminal factions exist to make money. That is their reason for existing. A capitol ship is a gigantic space-going pit that you shovel money into as fast as you possibly can.

It is entirely beyond the bounds of belivability that any criminal organization has capitol ships, with the following exceptions

* ships of CR-90 size or smaller.

* Exceptionally wealthy (Hutt cartel) organizations might have, possibly, two or three ships in the light-cruiser range. These would mostly be prestige pieces, or used to threaten other pirate gangs.

* The Errant Venture is a special case. It wasn't operated as a warship, but as a mobile trading post. This requires far less crew, and allows certain systems to be retired, or not maintained. Even thus, it barely stayed afloat without the occasional boost from the Republic.

* No pirate gang can stand up to the empire. It's a losing proposition, and they don't want to get their money-pits blown up.

* I played Empire at War. I know about the Zhann Consortium. I don't care. That's even more unrealistic than the Force.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Criminal factions do not operate capitol ships. Criminal factions exist to make money. That is their reason for existing. A capitol ship is a gigantic space-going pit that you shovel money into as fast as you possibly can.

It is entirely beyond the bounds of belivability that any criminal organization has capitol ships, with the following exceptions

* ships of CR-90 size or smaller.

* Exceptionally wealthy (Hutt cartel) organizations might have, possibly, two or three ships in the light-cruiser range. These would mostly be prestige pieces, or used to threaten other pirate gangs.

* The Errant Venture is a special case. It wasn't operated as a warship, but as a mobile trading post. This requires far less crew, and allows certain systems to be retired, or not maintained. Even thus, it barely stayed afloat without the occasional boost from the Republic.

* No pirate gang can stand up to the empire. It's a losing proposition, and they don't want to get their money-pits blown up.

* I played Empire at War. I know about the Zhann Consortium. I don't care. That's even more unrealistic than the Force.

You are correct but at the same time, what easier way is there to create a situation where you can back up the force of your threats with a ship capable of wiping out cities or better? What better way to defend your profits then by having your own security?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Criminal factions do not operate capitol ships. Criminal factions exist to make money. That is their reason for existing. A capitol ship is a gigantic space-going pit that you shovel money into as fast as you possibly can.

It is entirely beyond the bounds of belivability that any criminal organization has capitol ships, with the following exceptions

* ships of CR-90 size or smaller.

* Exceptionally wealthy (Hutt cartel) organizations might have, possibly, two or three ships in the light-cruiser range. These would mostly be prestige pieces, or used to threaten other pirate gangs.

* The Errant Venture is a special case. It wasn't operated as a warship, but as a mobile trading post. This requires far less crew, and allows certain systems to be retired, or not maintained. Even thus, it barely stayed afloat without the occasional boost from the Republic.

* No pirate gang can stand up to the empire. It's a losing proposition, and they don't want to get their money-pits blown up.

* I played Empire at War. I know about the Zhann Consortium. I don't care. That's even more unrealistic than the Force.

You are correct but at the same time, what easier way is there to create a situation where you can back up the force of your threats with a ship capable of wiping out cities or better? What better way to defend your profits then by having your own security?

Most pirate gangs wouldn't need to make city-wide threats. If they did, any starfighter with proton torpedoes should be able to make a large enough hole to be a credible threat.

And one really must balance "security for my profits" with "Oh god, it costs HOW MUCH to replace the hyperdrive motivator?" I would expect starfighters, and a few "heavily modified" freighters to do OK among pirates.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Criminal factions do not operate capitol ships. Criminal factions exist to make money. That is their reason for existing. A capitol ship is a gigantic space-going pit that you shovel money into as fast as you possibly can.

It is entirely beyond the bounds of belivability that any criminal organization has capitol ships, with the following exceptions

* ships of CR-90 size or smaller.

* Exceptionally wealthy (Hutt cartel) organizations might have, possibly, two or three ships in the light-cruiser range. These would mostly be prestige pieces, or used to threaten other pirate gangs.

* The Errant Venture is a special case. It wasn't operated as a warship, but as a mobile trading post. This requires far less crew, and allows certain systems to be retired, or not maintained. Even thus, it barely stayed afloat without the occasional boost from the Republic.

* No pirate gang can stand up to the empire. It's a losing proposition, and they don't want to get their money-pits blown up.

* I played Empire at War. I know about the Zhann Consortium. I don't care. That's even more unrealistic than the Force.

The Errant Venture was also a money sink. In later EU books Booster Terrik constantly lament don't think it would s about the upkeep on his ISD and how it falls into mild disrepair.

For big jobs, merc's just find more merc's, split the booty and go their separate ways.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Criminal factions do not operate capitol ships. Criminal factions exist to make money. That is their reason for existing. A capitol ship is a gigantic space-going pit that you shovel money into as fast as you possibly can.

It is entirely beyond the bounds of belivability that any criminal organization has capitol ships, with the following exceptions

* ships of CR-90 size or smaller.

* Exceptionally wealthy (Hutt cartel) organizations might have, possibly, two or three ships in the light-cruiser range. These would mostly be prestige pieces, or used to threaten other pirate gangs.

* The Errant Venture is a special case. It wasn't operated as a warship, but as a mobile trading post. This requires far less crew, and allows certain systems to be retired, or not maintained. Even thus, it barely stayed afloat without the occasional boost from the Republic.

* No pirate gang can stand up to the empire. It's a losing proposition, and they don't want to get their money-pits blown up.

* I played Empire at War. I know about the Zhann Consortium. I don't care. That's even more unrealistic than the Force.

The Errant Venture was also a money sink. In later EU books Booster Terrik constantly lament don't think it would s about the upkeep on his ISD and how it falls into mild disrepair.

For big jobs, merc's just find more merc's, split the booty and go their separate ways.

I've been enlisted. "Mild disrepair" probably means a tribe of howler monkeys living in the power transfer tubes.

The only pirate force that can gather in numbers strong enough to oppose the totality of the Empire is the Alliance to Restore the Republic. Other real criminal enterprises like the Hutts and Black Sun wouldn't have the numbers for major fleet engagements. Really these criminal organizations operate best by staying underground and out of sight and attention of the Empire, least they be mashed into space dust by an Imperial battle group.

I guess there's the Hutt defenses forces, but they never fight anybody, and they're mostly there to intimidate any spacers in dinky little YTs who come poking around the Hutt home systems. I suppose they could fight with the Rebellion or Empire if they had to, but why would they?

The Zahn consortium always felt like a mary-sue kind of entity in Star Wars. Really, you stole the Eclipse but only gave it back because you didn't feel like keeping it? You're Admiral Thrawn's personal enemy and you're a student of Jabba the Hutt? What's next, Zahn is revealed to be Palapatine's other illegitimate child? Their credibility was stretched too far for me, I'm happy to have them wiped out with the rest of Legends .

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Criminal factions do not operate capitol ships. Criminal factions exist to make money. That is their reason for existing. A capitol ship is a gigantic space-going pit that you shovel money into as fast as you possibly can.

It is entirely beyond the bounds of belivability that any criminal organization has capitol ships, with the following exceptions

* ships of CR-90 size or smaller.

* Exceptionally wealthy (Hutt cartel) organizations might have, possibly, two or three ships in the light-cruiser range. These would mostly be prestige pieces, or used to threaten other pirate gangs.

* The Errant Venture is a special case. It wasn't operated as a warship, but as a mobile trading post. This requires far less crew, and allows certain systems to be retired, or not maintained. Even thus, it barely stayed afloat without the occasional boost from the Republic.

* No pirate gang can stand up to the empire. It's a losing proposition, and they don't want to get their money-pits blown up.

* I played Empire at War. I know about the Zhann Consortium. I don't care. That's even more unrealistic than the Force.

The underlying problem is that Star Wars needs more factions. The number of times they have shoehorned in "scum & villainy" I'd say most game designers would agree.

What Disney really needs to do is Balkanize the Star Wars Universe into a dozen or more competing states. One could even be a Hutt State for all their Scum and Villainy needs.

The only pirate force that can gather in numbers strong enough to oppose the totality of the Empire is the Alliance to Restore the Republic. Other real criminal enterprises like the Hutts and Black Sun wouldn't have the numbers for major fleet engagements. Really these criminal organizations operate best by staying underground and out of sight and attention of the Empire, least they be mashed into space dust by an Imperial battle group.

I guess there's the Hutt defenses forces, but they never fight anybody, and they're mostly there to intimidate any spacers in dinky little YTs who come poking around the Hutt home systems. I suppose they could fight with the Rebellion or Empire if they had to, but why would they?

The Zahn consortium always felt like a mary-sue kind of entity in Star Wars. Really, you stole the Eclipse but only gave it back because you didn't feel like keeping it? You're Admiral Thrawn's personal enemy and you're a student of Jabba the Hutt? What's next, Zahn is revealed to be Palapatine's other illegitimate child? Their credibility was stretched too far for me, I'm happy to have them wiped out with the rest of Legends .

Of critical note: the Alliance isn't trying to make a profit. The Hutt Cartel probably has way more money, but for the Cartel, the money is the end goal.

The Zahn Consortium is actually canon now though how strong they are is unknown. One of the NPCs you can recruit in Uprising was part of the Consortium before the blockade cut them off from contact.

I would rather have a scum Armada faction then one based on a particular group though. Sure the ZC has most of the heavy scum capital ship designs but there are a lot of smaller scum capital ships used by other groups.

The Zahn Consortium is actually canon now though how strong they are is unknown. One of the NPCs you can recruit in Uprising was part of the Consortium before the blockade cut them off from contact.

I would rather have a scum Armada faction then one based on a particular group though. Sure the ZC has most of the heavy scum capital ship designs but there are a lot of smaller scum capital ships used by other groups.

When were they confirmed as canon?

It'd be interesting to see a Mercenary faction that could join either side (mostly likely as desperate allies, especially for the Empire, but sh*t happens). I for one would love to field a Nova-class battle cruiser:

A Hapan Battle Dragon would also be awesome. Something tells me they'd just lump them in with either side, but last I remember they never really allied with either the Empire or the Republic (then again I know so little of the EU all things considered, so yeah...)

The Zahn Consortium is actually canon now though how strong they are is unknown. One of the NPCs you can recruit in Uprising was part of the Consortium before the blockade cut them off from contact.

I would rather have a scum Armada faction then one based on a particular group though. Sure the ZC has most of the heavy scum capital ship designs but there are a lot of smaller scum capital ships used by other groups.

When were they confirmed as canon?

Uprising is canon, so if Uprising mentions the Consortium, it would follow the Consortium is also canon.

It'd be interesting to see a Mercenary faction that could join either side (mostly likely as desperate allies, especially for the Empire, but sh*t happens). I for one would love to field a Nova-class battle cruiser:

A Hapan Battle Dragon would also be awesome. Something tells me they'd just lump them in with either side, but last I remember they never really allied with either the Empire or the Republic (then again I know so little of the EU all things considered, so yeah...)

The Zahn Consortium is actually canon now though how strong they are is unknown. One of the NPCs you can recruit in Uprising was part of the Consortium before the blockade cut them off from contact.

I would rather have a scum Armada faction then one based on a particular group though. Sure the ZC has most of the heavy scum capital ship designs but there are a lot of smaller scum capital ships used by other groups.

When were they confirmed as canon?

Uprising is canon, so if Uprising mentions the Consortium, it would follow the Consortium is also canon.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zann_Consortium'

It'd be interesting to see a Mercenary faction that could join either side (mostly likely as desperate allies, especially for the Empire, but sh*t happens). I for one would love to field a Nova-class battle cruiser:

A Hapan Battle Dragon would also be awesome. Something tells me they'd just lump them in with either side, but last I remember they never really allied with either the Empire or the Republic (then again I know so little of the EU all things considered, so yeah...)

The Zahn Consortium is actually canon now though how strong they are is unknown. One of the NPCs you can recruit in Uprising was part of the Consortium before the blockade cut them off from contact.

I would rather have a scum Armada faction then one based on a particular group though. Sure the ZC has most of the heavy scum capital ship designs but there are a lot of smaller scum capital ships used by other groups.

When were they confirmed as canon?

Uprising is canon, so if Uprising mentions the Consortium, it would follow the Consortium is also canon.

A group is now canon. Not their abilities.

Remember: most of the Rebelllion's greatest military victories came with minimal capital ship support. The return on investment of a capital class so is too low unless you are primarily interested in taking and holding territory. Without that need, they are massive wastes of money and talent to keep operational.

The average Armada game is what? 1~5 ships? I can see enough scum coming together to pull that off. Larger fleet engagements of 500+ points? Hell no. In fact, make that a part of the faction with special objectives, ship rules, and squadron rules. Expensive illegal upgrades.

Imho its not too big of a stretch to see some criminal organisations own a couple of capital ships. Obviously not 30.000 crew imperial star destroyers, but some of the smaller capital ships certainly. Blacks Suns, Exchange and especially the Hutts (the latter which are in essence an empire, so definitely capable of maintaining fleets) spring to mind. Even if its not neccesary for these organisations to own capital ships, it could simply be a status thing or the whims of a megalomanic leader. When you are as wealthy as these organisations, the upkeep of a small fleet is barely noticable. And the Hutts specifically actually have planets/territories to protect/garrison.

In the old X-wing Alliance PC game, the Black Sun in one mission had a Rendili Bulk Cruiser of the Neutron class.

Han Solo even indirectly hinted/mentioned he had on occasssion outrunned the local "Bulk cruiser" as well as the "Big Corellian cruisers"

So the "Bulk cruiser" and "Big Corellian cruisers" are in fact Canon in the Star wars universe, as they are mentioned in the dialog in the OT

How they look like or who operates them, is up to debate.

A scum faction seems reasonable to me for a few reasons:

First up the scale of the game is such that while the forces we play with represent only small engagements for the rebels or imperials they cold represent a significant portion of a pirate force......maybe a players 'scum fleet' represents the entirety of the x,y,z gang?

Next up is the cost and availability of ships seen in the star wars universe. Ships there are quite readily available, they seem to be more comparable in cost to modern naval ships rather than our own space ships. Big ships are economically viable today both as a business, and for the very wealthy, just not for piracy, this relates to the next point:

The scale of the star wars galaxy – with our tech level, on our planet it would probably be 'rather difficult' to hijack a battleship, rob some large container ships, and then vanish into the ether (the days of the 1600-1700's are over). When its possible to get from anywhere to anywhere in less than 24 hours its kind of hard to hide a slow moving ship. By contrast the star wars galaxy is a much bigger place. The empire does not seem capable of having surveillance over most of known space, and they seem stretched too thin to seriously try and hammer down piracy. As a result hiding a capital ship seems plausible.

The nature of capital ships – capital ships in star wars are fast. I don't know if they have a longer hyperspace range than fighters or if they go faster in hyperspace than fighters, but from general absorption of trivia it seems like there isn't a huge disparity (certainly not like between modern ships and aircraft). As such the universe feels a little more like the pre-aviation days where capitals can be both relatively fast and heavily armed.

Finally there is the nature of the targets – I have no idea if cargo ships in star wars are armed or not, nor how well they are shielded? If not then they are pretty similar to our modern ships.......unfortunately this means that a few guys in an inflatable raft with some AK's and a rocket launcher pose a serious threat to pretty much any civilian vessel. Now imagine that the cargo ship either has a capital as an escort, or has a few heavy machine guns, and a turret or two......suddenly the pirates need a bigger ship to take on their prey. Basically do cargo ships in star wars take their safety seriously when heading into the less reputable systems?

There is also the question of available manpower. For the sake of argument lets say an AF2 needs 300 crew and is capable of catching and overpowering any cargo vessel. Is it cheaper and more effective than a comparable investment in one man fighters? I have no idea, probably comes down to the relative cost of manpower vs hardware in the star wars galaxy. lol what we really need is to see how a load of 5ish man boats with a single cannon and a modern electric motor go against some of the old war ships, that seems to be the real world equivalent of what star wars is.

All this isn't to say that I think scum should have access to ISD's, but I could certainly see them having an AF2 equivalent. As a direct comparison some of the more heavily gunned pirate ships had 40-50 cannons, which is roughly half that of the first rate capitals used by the major powers of the time.

Having said all this Im not very interested in scum myself. My preference for increased diversity down the line would be to mess the time line up and have republic, droid, whatever fleets, and maybe 'theme lists' that provide benefits to the more limited selection of units (like theme lists in warmahordes, sectorals in Infinity, and data slates (I think) in 40k) – something like a Mon Cal battle group vs the Imperial navy of the x sector.