Recently in the RT game I just started up the question was asked by my players as to when the imperium asks it's rogue traders to pony up and pay what they owe it. The answer I gave them was every ten years or so they would have to travel back to Terra and pay -10 profit for continued use of their warrant, or -15 if they would be unable to make it to the homeworld and had to meet with a sector's administratum instead.

Think this sounds reasonable?

You wouldn't have to go to Terra, you'd just have to go back to the nearest Sector Capital, if that. Partially because that makes sense, and then because it'd take 5+ years to travel to Terra, so by the time you are half way back to the sector you trade in, you'd have to turn around and go back to Terra to pay again.

Also, remember that the Warrant grants you everything you make outside of the Imperium. If you are doing most of your trading in the Expanse, there's no taxes to pay.

The whole point of a Warrant is that it frees the Rogue Trader to move beyond the strictures of the Imperium. They benifit for the Imperium is that it provides a way for it to expand without any strain on its own resources as Rogue Traders set up colonies and eventually estabilsh themselves as Imperial Govoners. The dues of a Rogue Trader are payed by a flood of wealth coming into Imperial space from outside its borders. By setting up trade routes and mining operations the Rogue Trader not only increases his wealth but the wealth of the Imperium. To have a Rogue Trader return to Imperial space to pay tax would only limit them and be very difficult to enforce.

Kaihlik

Where do you read that a Rogue Trader pays any dues? When the RT warrant says anything about duities it's that the RT must perform some task. (IE founding a colony, eliminating a Xenos world....) At most the RT pays taxes and fees when he docks and sells things at an Imperial court. RTs exist to exspand the Imperium, and explore the unknown not to make the Imperium money.

A rogue trader's "dues" are not paid in cash...

They are paid in the lives of his crew, doing the work of growing the Imperium.

Some maintain entire chapters of Space Marines (small ones, with up to 10 companies, not the larger ones of the age of the Horus Heresy, where a chapter was up to 10 regiments of 10 companies each, perhaps even more) or Imperial Guard... after all, a single regiment of marines is only 1000 marines, and a barracks holds "thousands of troops." (It is thus reasonable that a wealthy RT might be granted a subordinate half-regiment, and dedicate space to grow that regiment as a subset, still nominally under the no-longer directly connected Regimental AK.)

They are paid in bringing the Adeptus Mechanicus outside the limited borders of the Imperium, where they can find and absorb archaeotech and xenotech, and slowly work that which can be purified into the STC system by viral upgrades, transmitted unwillingly by the lesser tech-priests as they commune with the machine spirits of the working systems.

They are paid in helping the inquisition snuff border worlds lost to xenos or heresy.

All this stuff is represented better by in-play reasons to stop them from curing losses to their profit factor rather than direct hits to the profit factor.

@ aramis - on your comments about Space Marines - emm no, I think you may misunderstand the place Astartes have in the background. They are rare, very rare (only around 1million across the whole of the galaxy) and require very specialised skills to create. No chapter would ever willingly attach half its numbers to a Rogue Trader perminantly, in fact it would be a rare chapter that attached half of its numbers even on a temporary basis. Losing half a chapter is a crippling setback and takes decades to recover from not to mention the strain on chapter resourses to lose 500 suits of Power Armour along with other assorted battlegear. In the Taros campaign which was an offensive against the Tau 2 different chapters assigned 3 companies between them to persecute a single campaign after which they moved on to other duties. The Imperium simply cannot afford to have marines sit around in the hold of a Rogue Trader vessel waiting to see if they are needed.

Also they can not be forced to to join a Rogue Trader as they maintain autonomy from Imperial intitutions, any aid from a Space Marine must be requested, it cannot be ordered by anyone less than a High Lord who know thier value enough not to attach them to Rogue Traders.

You seem to have mixed up the terms chapter and regiment so I dont quite understand what you are saying but Imperial Guard are orgainised into Regiments usually numbered in the tens of thousands of fighting men and Space Marines are orgainised into Chapters numbering roughly 1000 marines.

For a marine chapter to grow it has to pick potential recruits from viable stock and implant the 19 organs that create a Space Marine. These organs are grown at the chapters fortress monistary from the progenoid glands harvested from other marines and so all 500 marines would do out with a Rogue Trader is slowly dwindle as they would be unable to replace their numbers (a Rogue Trader vessel cant possess the space for everything needed to create and train a space marine).

In short alocating half a chapter to a Rogue Trader would be a criminal waste of resources on the part of the Imperium and futhermore no chapter would allow it.

Kaihlik

Kaihlik said:

You're confused only because you apparently don't know the various older editions of the games, and that they show different time frames and different marine organizations.

40K 4th ed stuff shows chapters of 10 companies. So does 1st ed 40K... but 1st ed Space Marines doesn't.

1st Ed Epic had chapters of multiple regiments, each regiment of 10 companies (Command Co + 3 Bn of 3 Co each). It specifically shows chapters being considerably larger than M41; Horus Heresy was thousands of years earlier.

Further 40K 1st ed explicitly shows marines in the retinue of Rogue Traders.

I quote from WH40K:RT page 170: " Retinue. Roue Traders do not take to the empty voids of space alone - each commands a small fleet, a contingent of warriors, settlers, and all manner of support personnel. With them go supplies to last for several years, vehicles, prefabricated research stations, housing, transport, weaponry, etc. A typical retinue would be a an entire company of Space Marines (100 warriors) plus two companies of ordinary imperial stroops all with standard vehicles and auxiliary equipment. These can be generated in the normal manner should you wish."

A powerful and well liked trader, given the ship rules, can easily carry thousands of troops, and could get more of a marine contingent aboard. 5 companies (half a Horus Heresy Regiment, half an M41 Chapter) is about as much as any imperial commander is likely to authorize... but also is enough to justify additional assets.

aramis said:

And all of that has long since been overwritten, like much of the Rogue Trader/40k1 background. The nature and origins of the Space Marines in particular were revised in quite a significant manner when 2nd Edition 40k came around.

The Astartes in the current background are fiercely autonomous and enjoy considerable freedom from the laws and commandments of the Imperium, and are certainly not subject to the authority of Imperial Commanders. They would not, long-term, bind themselves to the whims of a Rogue Trader (many of whom, per the background in the Rogue Trader RPG, are given their Warrants of Trade as a means of eliminating a political rival, or as a 'better fate than you deserve' form of punishment). Astartes Captains, let alone Chapter Masters are not the kind of people that normal humans get away with bossing around.

If we use the 'current 40K' along with DH as a basis, the Calixis Sector can support entire squads of full-on Inquisitors (not mere Acolytes) yet there are only 50 Battle Sisters in the Sector. Space Marines are supposed to be even more rare.

Of course, 40K is so inconsistant that the best answer is to just decide where you want to set the bar for your game and stick for consistancy from that point. If you want entire an entire Company of Space Marines attached to a Rogue Trader to be commonplace, it's OK - but it's going to have a different feel from a game where having the services of a single squad of Space Marines is an Acquisition of a lifetime.

Cheddah said:

Even assuming RTs pay some form of dues or taxes, which, as discussed by others, is not commonly assumed to be the case. expecting a payout more than once a century, tops, is unreasonable. Warp travel, especially in the distant reaches RTs operate in, cannot be relied on to get you across sectors that quickly on a regular basis, much less to Terra. Also, a permanent loss of 10 Profit Factor is the kind of financial crisis that makes the current economic woes of America look pretty routine.

RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Some of their holdings on Imperium worlds probably pay some form of taxes. However one of the minions would handle the tax so that the Rogue Trader doesn't notice it unless he looks closely at that holding.

Dalnor Surloc said:

I thought the concept of them was aklin to adventuring privateers: they get the freedom to do their own thing, they just need to cut the crown in on the action.

They get thier cut from the expansion of the Imperium and the goods flowing from outside expanding the wealth of nearby sectors. They can't really charge money as Rogue Traders dont necissarily deal in cash alot of the time and doing something like that would hamstring thier efforts and be worse off for them in the long run.

Kaihlik

Dues? As in... taxes?

Aren't those things that happen to other people?

I mean, it's basically in the name: "Rogue" Trader. The Imperium didn't just give them "lots of rope", they handed him the leash altogether and cut him lose. As long as he doesn't bite the hand that fed him, he can do - mostly - whatever he pleases. "Taxes" come in as soon as he sells things in the Imperium, and even then it's surely not him that pays them... oh, to live the life of a Rogue Trader just once

Yup, the Warrant is pretty much a capitalist's wet dream - the "state" sanctions pretty much every action you deem appropriate and is content with benefiting from the wealth you generate through other parties...

I'll just leave it in as a clause of the warrant of trade. It still makes sense as the PCs' ship got a mysterious benefactor that they are in dept to.

Depending on how much profit you make, -10 will likely still be too much.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

No there is a precedent. Yes much of the older material has been rewritten since the first edition 40K where the marines were most definetly used in the rogue trader background in the work of the rogue trader. Then there is a short story done by William King of the Felix and Gotrek series where Space Wolves working for an enigmatic Rogue Trader board a Tyrannid ship. The Book Legacy of the Shira Capurnia series has in it written that older rogue Traders often have pacts with chapters, and that Shira can think of two familys where that was the case , and last of all there is the new fluff (Is it the Core book, or the history pdf... Ill have to check) where half a dozen squads ofmarines from as many chapters work with a rogue trader. The rogue Trader directs, they employ the means. And as for Hierachy, remember when outside the bounds of the Imperium the Rogue Trader speaks with the authority of the Emoperor himself, which supercedes that of a chapter master, which prbably would massively garte on the marines nerves especially if he is a scoundrel and a cad, but remember... they employ the means

A whole Chapter of marines...?. Very Unlikely unless its a crusade and the Rogue trader is leading it. Would he have a company? Possibly though he would have to pull in some BIG favours...marines are not expendable to colonise some dirtball in the wilderness spaceIt would have to be for a specific purpuse that the Imperium can't trust guardsmen to accomplish. A squad? Quite possibly... especially if they are scouts/neophytes out to prove themselves or belong to a chapter that favour exploration (there is one in paticular second founding one but I cant bring it to mind)Would it be a permenant secondment. Never.

A regiment of Imperial Guards. Almost certainly, though again this would be written in the terms of the warrant. Most of the time he would have to again pull in favours to get one.

Captain Harlock said:

Well, strictly speaking, they don't outrank chapter masters, according to the sample warrant included in the CE. They are granted authority inter alia Imperial Commanders, Chapter Masters of the Adeptus Astartes and Masters of the Inquisitorial Ordos, when they are outside Imperial space. That means (thanks to the use of the phrase inter alia ) that they have the same nominal rank, precedence and authority.

Yes, it also states that beyond Imperial space they speak with the Emperor's Voice, but so do Imperial Commanders, Inquisitors and Chapter Masters .
Also, unless the terms of the original Warrant give them a specific grant of troops from whatever source, they will most likely have to make an agreement to gain the use of them inside Imperial space, in which case they (strictly speaking) do not have the same level of authority as Imperial Commanders etc., but merely have their vast wealth as a bargaining tool.

I'm not saying that it is impossible, as there is precedent (btw, it is the core book), but that is either a case of special circumstances (such as a crusade, as noted), or of a pact formed by trade bonds (possibly the dynasty performed some heroic service for the Chapter in the past, or possibly they simply put in a tender for supplying the Chapter with high-quality materiel of some description), or noted specifically in the terms of the original Warrant (although if that is the case the Warrant is probably a truly ancient one signed and authorised by someone the Astartes in question respect even now- such as the Emperor, the Sigillite or a Primarch). It's unlikely to be more than a Company from a particular Chapter, even then.

Guard regiments? Yeah, it'd be a case of pulling some strings unless it's in the Warrant, but that can be covered quite easily using the Acquisition rules.

As for the question posed by the OP- they may have taxes on their holdings and transaction in Imperial space, but unless the taxes are deliberately punitive for some reason, the odds are they won't really notice it unless they are already in seriously bad shape. Really, the overall would be something along the lines of -1 to -5 PF per century, payable at a sector or possibly segmentum capital, with back taxes if all the dynasty's holdings were outside of Imperial rule for a significant period.
It is worth noting, that if they were in such a position, they'd be wise to get a receipt, as it is theoretically possible that they could pay their taxes at say... Scintilla, and then head to Thracian Primaris (capital of the Scarus sector), to find that the record of them paying hasn't reached there yet

In the background Space Marines used to be organized into Legions prior to and during the Heresy. These varied in numbers hugely with the Space Wolves having about 3,000 while the Ultramarines had 10,000+ Space Marines. These were broken down into chapters of roughly 1,000 Marines and Space Marines were forbidden to command non-Space Marine Forces and are technically supposed to have ships only for the purposes of troop transport and planetary assault. In reality Chapters can range from a few hundred to about 1,500 depending on how well things have been going for them recently. Chapters are kept at 1000 by an agreement made by the Primarchs/those who stood in for the lost Primarchs and the precursers of the Lords of Terra, those Chapters that get overly large have a new Chapter split off from them and those chapters that dwindle below a sustainable number presumeably get reintergrated into another chapter with whom they share a Primarch progenitor. Apart from the size limit Space Marines also have to render up a portion of their geneseed periodically to be tested by the Inquisition and the Tech Priests to make sure that they arn't falling prey to Xenos or Chaos taint. These two rules are enforced largely by other Space Marines (partially as a matter of honour but also because who else could!) but apart from them they are given a fairly free hand. Space Marine Chapters are petetioned for aid, even by the highest Inquisitors, they are loyal servants of the Emperor but their relationship to the Imperium is similar to that of the Tech Priests, they are part of the Imperium but also apart from it.

Space Marines can join with Rogue traders, a Rogue trader may be granted the aid of a squad of Space Marines for a paticular reason, maybe a paticulaly impressive rogue trader could have one or two as bodyguards. Space Marines may also fight alongside rogue traders as part of a large explorator fleet or as part of a Crusade but these would be a Company or two at most.

As I accidently set this to go and there doesn't seem to be a way to edit it I'll just do it as a second post.

With regards to "How often does a dynasty need to pay its dues?" I'll say what I've done in my campaign

The Rogue trader family has a quite militant past history and so they have been given the right to half the imperial guard regiments recruited from a paticular world (the world having to raise one regiment every five years with the exception of emergency situations) however they have to train, equip and transport the other half to wherever they are required. This wasn't a problem until the rogue trader family's fortune came crashing down...