If FFG really wants to save the LGS or help them, they absolutely can give them a competitive advantage. For example B & M stores could be allowed to sell new waves a full week before on-line retailers.

That'd get me to shift from primarily buying on-line to primarily buying in store.

The LGS may steal some sales now because they are more competitive, but I don't think it will move the needle that much.

That very well may be true. But then again the price MM is listing for Wave 8 may be a step up, just because MM is taking advantage of the news to raise their prices. Or maybe it's a temp increase to get people ready for the real increase.But again I agree if the discount is still 25% then this will have very little impact.

If FFG really wants to save the LGS or help them, they absolutely can give them a competitive advantage.

Yes, I think there could be better ways for FFG to give a LGS an advantage. The question is, is there a better way to do that, and increase FFG's profits?

Based on some of the arguments in this thread and some of FFGs own justification for their current plan, providing LGS an advantage such as early release helps the LGS which supposedly helps grow the game which would result in more players and more sales.

Which is another indication of how FFGs PR falls flat. They could probably do many things that would help the LGS compete so it could grow the market, without necessarily impacting customers financially in the process. But the easy button is just to raise the wholesale price/lower the discount to online sellers. Money now, plus a good story/benefit to LGS depending on what you believe.

Realistically this is the change.

Before: online 40% off, FLGS 10% off

After: online 20% off, FLGS 10% off

Does it suck personally for you if you only ever buy online? Yes. Is it a good change for the long term heath of the game? Yes.

That's the dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum.

Why is that a good change for the long term health of the game? What real evidence are you basing that on?

Then you can't have been around for very long.

I'm not certain why you think it is dumb.

I think Peterson is absolutely correct, and Asmodee NA is making a very sound decision. Yes, it will suck for those people buying only online (and not playing at FLGSs) - but it can help the FLGSs, because it can help them compete against the online retailers, who have had to suffer what is essentially an unfair disadvantage while did more to grow the hobby as a whole.

I see this baseless assertion all the time. That LGSs grow the market in any kind of significant manner. There is no proof of this. It seems more to me that the internet, more than anything, has pushed the hobby gaming market into incredible growth in the last 10-15 years and that rising tide has lifted the FLGS boat - not the other way around. There are orders of magnitude more game companies and more games released now than there were even 10 years ago. Do we seriously believe that FLGSs that have existed for decades just suddenly kicked it into gear in the last decade? Of course not. Exposure on the Facebook, on Boardgamegeek, on YouTube, in movies and on TV - there is where the growth comes from. The ability to find these games for sale online, to learn the rules from videos, to see others having fun experiencing them without leaving your couch - there is where the growth comes from. Your LGS isn't even a blip. And for every LGS that actually creates customers, there are 5 with poor lighting, unfriendly employees, a Magic-centric vibe, and dirty play space to scare them away.

And inevitably what I see when new people start buying games (or they buy games as gifts) is that they are SHOCKED by the sticker prices and only slightly less shocked by the online prices. People have spent their whole lives paying $12 for a copy of Monopoly at Wal-Mart.

The other thing I've seen is more and more game stores and game cafés opening than ever before - and by a huge margin. Because the internet created the market, the exposure, and the interest - not the game store down the street. I would wager that 90% of the people in a town with an FLGS don't even know it exists, and 99.9% of them have never set a foot inside.

I've said this before and I'll say it again - If Asmodee wants to raise prices, that's fine. It is a game and it is their product to sell as they wish. But don't think you are tricking me into believing it is about evening the playing field and helping brick and mortar stores who are "so important" to the hobby. They're not. They aren't growing the market - they are the recipients of the benefit of a market exploding around them.

Preach!

The LGS may steal some sales now because they are more competitive, but I don't think it will move the needle that much.

That very well may be true. But then again the price MM is listing for Wave 8 may be a step up, just because MM is taking advantage of the news to raise their prices. Or maybe it's a temp increase to get people ready for the real increase.But again I agree if the discount is still 25% then this will have very little impact.

If FFG really wants to save the LGS or help them, they absolutely can give them a competitive advantage.

Yes, I think there could be better ways for FFG to give a LGS an advantage. The question is, is there a better way to do that, and increase FFG's profits?

Based on some of the arguments in this thread and some of FFGs own justification for their current plan, providing LGS an advantage such as early release helps the LGS which supposedly helps grow the game which would result in more players and more sales.

Which is another indication of how FFGs PR falls flat. They could probably do many things that would help the LGS compete so it could grow the market, without necessarily impacting customers financially in the process. But the easy button is just to raise the wholesale price/lower the discount to online sellers. Money now, plus a good story/benefit to LGS depending on what you believe.

Side note but your entire argument I think is based on misunderstanding. The true benefit for lgs is the ability to purchase directly from ffg which lowers costs by cutting out distributors. I talked with one of my lgs managers and he said that was going to be a significant benefit.

I would love to know what you think my argument is, because I'm failing to see how this counters it.

This will certainly help Amazon the most.

Amazon is generally terrible with FFG products in the UK, especially on release.

Guess I was looking for a reason to stop buying X-Wing by wave on release (or at all, it ain't cheap) anyway, and here's a good one.

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

It does. People want their toys cheap. FFG aren't selling loaves of bread, people. If you want cheap Star Wars miniatures, buy some micromachines and write your own rules (which is actually what some kids used to do).

It's the whole "We're doing this for the LGS! And the children, don't forget the children!" that I take exception to.

I get it. I guess I just don't pay attention to the PR most times. I know PR and advertising bothers some people, but for me it's just noise. So what reason they give simply doesn't matter to me.

But I will assume that a company will not out and out lie, because that's easy to catch and can realy hurt. So unless someone can prove that the people involved have no intention of trying to help the LGS then I'm going to assume the PR is as valid as any PR is... Which at best is an attempt to put something in the most positive light they can manage.

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

I guess that's what happens when you open up miniature gaming to casuals. Cry more about your $15 ships, I'll be over here in a corner assembling 30k models...

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

It is called capitalism. You must compete for my patronage.

But, but, think of the FLGS! They are entitled to your wallet even though they provide you with no useful service!

Math != Business

Clearly.

What did you guys use to calculate profits a page back when you assumed increased sales equal increased cost. I forget.

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

It is called capitalism. You must compete for my patronage.

Because capitalism is great, and nothing unsavory has ever happened under the auspices of capitalism.

They are entitled to your wallet even though they provide you with no useful service!

If yours doesn't, then the F is not correct. Mine however does offer a number of useful services so I don't mind paying more, because those are services that CSI or Miniature Market can't provide.

That however doesn't change the fact that B&M stores can not compete with the discount online retailers offer, and they lose business because of it.

Remember that discount for some covers the shipping, so if you don't have a local store, you still get to play at reasonable prices. Its to easy to call People entiteled or whatever. That stores pushes the game, only to a degree. I have a couple of stores locally where I play and buy, but it was a friend who introduced the game to me privately.

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

Oh tsk tsk, sir. Pulling the "entitlement" wild card so soon? Why we've yet to even reach page 10!

I've not seen anyone say they have a 'right to a discount'. You read the caricature arguments of the caricature people you envision, and not what is actually said.

and not what is actually said.

Now, now... If we start telling people they can't use strawman arguments then these debates would never make it past page 2.

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

Oh tsk tsk, sir. Pulling the "entitlement" wild card so soon? Why we've yet to even reach page 10!I've not seen anyone say they have a 'right to a discount'. You read the caricature arguments of the caricature people you envision, and not what is actually said.

I think it's called 'inference.'

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

Oh tsk tsk, sir. Pulling the "entitlement" wild card so soon? Why we've yet to even reach page 10!I've not seen anyone say they have a 'right to a discount'. You read the caricature arguments of the caricature people you envision, and not what is actually said.

I think it's called 'inference.'

The quality of the inference is so much more often based upon the (reading) comprehension of the inferrer, the quality of the medium to convey a clear message, and any pre-existing biases than it is based upon actual reality. Just because you inferred a conclusion does not make that conclusion sound or accurate.

Math != Business

Clearly.

What did you guys use to calculate profits a page back when you assumed increased sales equal increased cost. I forget.

Arithmetic.

Alright, let's do a simple case study:

Two shops are selling an item which costs them (wholesale) $50. MSRP for this product is $75 which gets them $25 in profit and 50% margin.

Shop A decides to sell at MSRP and sells 20 units. Their revenue is $1500.

Shop B decides to sell below MSRP with a 20% discount and sells 40 units. Their revenue is $2400.

Shop A's COGS (Cost of Goods Sold) are $1000 ($50 wholesale X 20 units) resulting in a $500 profit. Margin on these units is 50%.

Shop B's COGS are $2000 ($50 wholesale X 40 units) resulting in a $400 profit. Margin on these units is 20%.

Shop B sold far more units and had a greater overall revenue ("made more money") but shop A has more money to reinvest in it's business. Who won? Shop A. In small business gross revenue counts for a lot less than profits and profit margin. Increased profits means the business has more money in its pocket to reinvest, buy more product, increase employee pay, or support events.

What is the lesson here? Profit is good.

I just don't get some reasoning, the whole 'I have a right to a discount' is alien to me. Reeks of entitlement.

Oh tsk tsk, sir. Pulling the "entitlement" wild card so soon? Why we've yet to even reach page 10!I've not seen anyone say they have a 'right to a discount'. You read the caricature arguments of the caricature people you envision, and not what is actually said.

I think it's called 'inference.'

The quality of the inference is so much more often based upon the (reading) comprehension of the inferrer, the quality of the medium to convey a clear message, and any pre-existing biases than it is based upon actual reality. Just because you inferred a conclusion does not make that conclusion sound or accurate.

I guess I'll just thank my lucky stars that I'm an excellent reader, then.

So, if the conclusion I'm drawing - 'people are selfish and will use any excuse they can to justify their outrage' - is faulty, then what is the true heart of the matter?

Do we anticipate this having much of an influence on the used market?

Based on the wave 8 pricing we are seeing from MM, the online stores expect to pay a higher wholesale price. The problem is, that gap of going from a 35% discount to 25% is still not enough for the LGS to compete. The LGS may steal some sales now because they are more competitive, but I don't think it will move the needle that much.If FFG really wants to save the LGS or help them, they absolutely can give them a competitive advantage. For example B & M stores could be allowed to sell new waves a full week before on-line retailers. I'm really excited for the Ghost, I'd pay MSRP to get it a week early at an LGS. Yet, FFG isn't doing anything like this that would truly allow the LGS to compete. So no matter how they spin it, they really are just making more money on the on-line sales. I'm cool with that, but I think they should treat us like adults and be up front about it. Others may see it differently.

This is the situation in a nutshell!