That is why I don't buy drinks at starbucks. There is a FLGS which is not that local to me. It is about an 1hr to 1 1/2hr away by highway travel. We were there for a con and decided to stop in. They had the ghostbusters the board game there for 69,99 instead of the msrp of 85.00. We purchased it because it was within 5 to 10 of the online price. That also took into consideration both shipping for online and tax for local. We purchased it local. Now I am not going to run out there all the time to make purchases because I would burn up more money in gas than I would save. So again if more FLGS could do that I would buy more local than online. Remember walmart did not start out as big as they are if they did not make smart decisions. They get the best prices on the goods they sell and pass that along to the consumer that is why most everybody shops there to make their money stretch.

I don't go chasing penny's and lose dollars.

1) This thread's gonna get closed soon

2) Can someone remind me how to block people?

You have to go to your user control panel.

All that in what is essentially a large market town with delusions of grandeur and no university.

Wakefield?

:-)

online 40% off, FLGS 20% off

And how exactly are they supposed to start offering that kind of discount? The only way they could do that is to take a hit on their own profit. Plus increasing the discount online would do nothing but maintain the status quo.

more sales equals more profit. If the LGS tried to compete maybe I would buy from them.

This is the lack of understanding that makes these conversations annoying. There is a really **** good reason when one of the local kids asked the store guy about what the wholesale cost was, he refused to answer. Because once people know the wholesale price, they don't understand why they can't get a discount. Especially when you look at CSI's and MM's discounts.

So, for the millionth time, some real, real basic accounting/business. There is a thing called Gross Margin. It is the difference between how much you sale something for how much you buy something. Sure, you can have a lower margin, but with a lower margin, you need to sell more to make up your other expenses to make a profit. This is the real reason why the big online stores can operate at a much, much lower margin than local stores. They sell so, so much more. I mean, your average store with a decent player base probably sells 5% of what CSI or MM does. So, how exactly can local stores compete if they can never approach the amount the big sellers sell?

Lol. I have a BA in math from a university with 30k students.

You tell me what comes first; my purchase or a competitive price? LGS makes $0 from my lack of purchase due to their price. Im not asking them to sell at a loss. You assume that if they discount there will not be an increase in # of sales.

The above is theory. I do buy from LGS occaisionally, not often.

online 40% off, FLGS 20% off

And how exactly are they supposed to start offering that kind of discount? The only way they could do that is to take a hit on their own profit. Plus increasing the discount online would do nothing but maintain the status quo.

more sales equals more profit. If the LGS tried to compete maybe I would buy from them.

This is the lack of understanding that makes these conversations annoying. There is a really **** good reason when one of the local kids asked the store guy about what the wholesale cost was, he refused to answer. Because once people know the wholesale price, they don't understand why they can't get a discount. Especially when you look at CSI's and MM's discounts.

So, for the millionth time, some real, real basic accounting/business. There is a thing called Gross Margin. It is the difference between how much you sale something for how much you buy something. Sure, you can have a lower margin, but with a lower margin, you need to sell more to make up your other expenses to make a profit. This is the real reason why the big online stores can operate at a much, much lower margin than local stores. They sell so, so much more. I mean, your average store with a decent player base probably sells 5% of what CSI or MM does. So, how exactly can local stores compete if they can never approach the amount the big sellers sell?

Lol. I have a BA in math from a university with 30k students.

You tell me what comes first; my purchase or a competitive price? LGS makes $0 from my lack of purchase due to their price. Im not asking them to sell at a loss. You assume that if they discount there will not be an increase in # of sales.

The above is theory. I do buy from LGS occaisionally, not often.

Math != Business

1) This thread's gonna get closed soon

2) Can someone remind me how to block people?

Apparently ~$5 per small ship makes many people quite vitriolic.

Math != Business

Clearly.

This thread should have ended at 'games grow from my couch.' That easily qualifies as one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on this forum, and that's saying a lot.

Look at it this way: if online retailers had had to charge closer to MSRP from the get-go, would you have never started playing X-Wing at all? If ordering from Amazon was always the same price as going to your local store, would you have decided not to bother due to the cost?

I don't know for sure but likely I would have gotten a lot less if I had to pay MSRP. I originally intended to get just a few models to collect but after talking to the LGS and getting a discount I jumped in, yep I wan't there at the start. As for Armada I mostly only wanted the ISD, Neb B and Corvette expansions. But because of the Christmas sale at Miniature Market guess what. I went all in. The whole shebang in one order.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have purchased anything Star Wars but based on my buying habits for other things most likely if the prices were 20% to 30% higher I would have only collected a few ships and stopped there.

This was like plastic crack. The cheaper prices got me to spends 4 to 6 times more than I would have if I couldn't have afforded it in the first place. Argh the irony of it.

This is the lack of understanding that makes these conversations annoying. There is a really **** good reason when one of the local kids asked the store guy about what the wholesale cost was, he refused to answer. Because once people know the wholesale price, they don't understand why they can't get a discount. Especially when you look at CSI's and MM's discounts.

So, for the millionth time, some real, real basic accounting/business. There is a thing called Gross Margin. It is the difference between how much you sale something for how much you buy something. Sure, you can have a lower margin, but with a lower margin, you need to sell more to make up your other expenses to make a profit. This is the real reason why the big online stores can operate at a much, much lower margin than local stores. They sell so, so much more. I mean, your average store with a decent player base probably sells 5% of what CSI or MM does. So, how exactly can local stores compete if they can never approach the amount the big sellers sell?

Well just so we are clear, there are two distinct camps on the disgruntled side of this. One camp wants the LGS to provide closer to wholesale pricing. As you have pointed out that can't happen since the online retailer basically is paying for warehouse space, while the LGS owner has property taxes, employees, utilities, etc, etc.

The other camp is just chafed because FFG is trying to spin what they are doing as saving the LGS. This is in my opinion, bunk. Based on the wave 8 pricing we are seeing from MM, the online stores expect to pay a higher wholesale price. The problem is, that gap of going from a 35% discount to 25% is still not enough for the LGS to compete. The LGS may steal some sales now because they are more competitive, but I don't think it will move the needle that much.

If FFG really wants to save the LGS or help them, they absolutely can give them a competitive advantage. For example B & M stores could be allowed to sell new waves a full week before on-line retailers. I'm really excited for the Ghost, I'd pay MSRP to get it a week early at an LGS. Yet, FFG isn't doing anything like this that would truly allow the LGS to compete. So no matter how they spin it, they really are just making more money on the on-line sales. I'm cool with that, but I think they should treat us like adults and be up front about it. Others may see it differently.

This is the lack of understanding that makes these conversations annoying. There is a really **** good reason when one of the local kids asked the store guy about what the wholesale cost was, he refused to answer. Because once people know the wholesale price, they don't understand why they can't get a discount. Especially when you look at CSI's and MM's discounts.

So, for the millionth time, some real, real basic accounting/business. There is a thing called Gross Margin. It is the difference between how much you sale something for how much you buy something. Sure, you can have a lower margin, but with a lower margin, you need to sell more to make up your other expenses to make a profit. This is the real reason why the big online stores can operate at a much, much lower margin than local stores. They sell so, so much more. I mean, your average store with a decent player base probably sells 5% of what CSI or MM does. So, how exactly can local stores compete if they can never approach the amount the big sellers sell?

Well just so we are clear, there are two distinct camps on the disgruntled side of this. One camp wants the LGS to provide closer to wholesale pricing. As you have pointed out that can't happen since the online retailer basically is paying for warehouse space, while the LGS owner has property taxes, employees, utilities, etc, etc.

The other camp is just chafed because FFG is trying to spin what they are doing as saving the LGS. This is in my opinion, bunk. Based on the wave 8 pricing we are seeing from MM, the online stores expect to pay a higher wholesale price. The problem is, that gap of going from a 35% discount to 25% is still not enough for the LGS to compete. The LGS may steal some sales now because they are more competitive, but I don't think it will move the needle that much.

If FFG really wants to save the LGS or help them, they absolutely can give them a competitive advantage. For example B & M stores could be allowed to sell new waves a full week before on-line retailers. I'm really excited for the Ghost, I'd pay MSRP to get it a week early at an LGS. Yet, FFG isn't doing anything like this that would truly allow the LGS to compete. So no matter how they spin it, they really are just making more money on the on-line sales. I'm cool with that, but I think they should treat us like adults and be up front about it. Others may see it differently.

Just so we're clear: Camp 1 is full of idiots.

(looks at thread)

Clearly, $2 for small ships clearly is.

As for your point, the issue is that FFG games are not collectible games. Such a thing works with things like Magic or Heroclix, in part due to the secondary market. Waiting on an FFG game isn't really an issue if you are patient.

I do find it interesting about the lack of threads about this in the Armada section.

Let's again look at GW they sell to stores at 55% of rep we know this as a rock solid fact which is why stores sell at 25% off and still make money because they are shifting the numbers to make it worth while.

It's there for reasonable to assume a similar arrangement for ffg, you buy for £8 sell for £10-11 on an individual ship that's not alot but because you're offering a good deal you have the bulk sales to make it worth while.

Compare that to video games where chain companies like game make under £2 per unit sold but have to pay close to retail.

Now your going to have to pay £10 per small ship which means you sell it at £13, that secures your profit but it makes the customer spend more or buy less, if they buy less you will have to stock less or it'll sit on your shelf losing you money which in turn means sales of x-wing drop.

People are very price sensitive they left GW in droves as the value of their product dropped, gamers don't like getting less for their money and these days there's no shortage of options.

The LGS may steal some sales now because they are more competitive, but I don't think it will move the needle that much.

That very well may be true. But then again the price MM is listing for Wave 8 may be a step up, just because MM is taking advantage of the news to raise their prices. Or maybe it's a temp increase to get people ready for the real increase.

But again I agree if the discount is still 25% then this will have very little impact.

If FFG really wants to save the LGS or help them, they absolutely can give them a competitive advantage.

Yes, I think there could be better ways for FFG to give a LGS an advantage. The question is, is there a better way to do that, and increase FFG's profits?

I buy online because of the massive price differance. If prices are slpser then i will be more apt to buy at a FLGS. I always want to buy at the store but right now online is too good of andeal to pass up. This change will not affect how much I buy but will change where I buy it to some degree. Sounds like they knkw what they are doing

People are very price sensitive they left GW in droves as the value of their product dropped, gamers don't like getting less for their money and these days there's no shortage of options.

The increase in price was only part of the issue that GW has.

MaxTeranous, on 30 Dec 2015 - 02:22 AM, said:MaxTeranous, on 30 Dec 2015 - 02:22 AM, said:MaxTeranous, on 30 Dec 2015 - 02:22 AM, said:

Realistically this is the change.

Before: online 40% off, FLGS 10% off

After: online 20% off, FLGS 10% off

Does it suck personally for you if you only ever buy online? Yes. Is it a good change for the long term heath of the game? Yes.

That's the dumbest thing I have ever read on this forum.

Why is that a good change for the long term health of the game? What real evidence are you basing that on?

I have worked in Hobby games marketing for almost 15 years and I am a business major and graduate from San Diego state University.

The basic business model of hobby style specialist games in this market demands that people play them in public, period. If anyone hasnt figured that out yet I assure you it is true.

In order to play them in public we need a store to do so. Go ahead conduct your own market research and ask you local game store owner what his biggest sales market competition is. Most game store owners will tell you online sales due to the disproportionate price difference offered by online retailers.

So simply put they need to reduce the sales of online products in general and increase the availability of products to the "Brick and Mortar" game stores.

Its called keeping the money local...it is the only way my friend, unless you dream of the day when wal mart has a small hobby section for play, because buying online supports large corporation business models and kills local competition.

Look at it this way: if online retailers had had to charge closer to MSRP from the get-go, would you have never started playing X-Wing at all? If ordering from Amazon was always the same price as going to your local store, would you have decided not to bother due to the cost?

I don't know for sure but likely I would have gotten a lot less if I had to pay MSRP. I originally intended to get just a few models to collect but after talking to the LGS and getting a discount I jumped in, yep I wan't there at the start. As for Armada I mostly only wanted the ISD, Neb B and Corvette expansions. But because of the Christmas sale at Miniature Market guess what. I went all in. The whole shebang in one order.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have purchased anything Star Wars but based on my buying habits for other things most likely if the prices were 20% to 30% higher I would have only collected a few ships and stopped there.

This was like plastic crack. The cheaper prices got me to spends 4 to 6 times more than I would have if I couldn't have afforded it in the first place. Argh the irony of it.

Had there not been any other option that I was aware of or available to me - by which I mean, had these prices already been 'fixed' when I started playing - I'm pretty sure I would have gotten almost exactly what I got anyway, and would just have paid more for it. I may have made a few less purchases - still haven't even unboxed the 2nd HWK I bought when I was still in a "must have at least 2 of EVERYTHING" phase, as an example - but it wouldn't have been significantly less and might actually have lead me to make smarter purchases. Or maybe I'd have been just as gung-ho.

The value of something is what we assign to it, and that's usually based on "range of reason" logic, meaning if someone tells you this item is worth $15, you start going up and down based on the $15 start price. If I look at molded plastic with cardboard chits, I have NO IDEA what they are really worth, I just know that FFG recommends they sell at $15 and I buy them at $10 from MM or Amazon or eBay. If they had always been $13 on Amazon, I wouldn't have been having any internal "oh man, NOW i feel ripped off!", I would have been thinking "oh MAN, I just got my collection for cheaper than if I had gone to a LGS and paid full price + sales tax!"

This is all perspective and people will gain some over time, or they will quit. Either way, this endless forum raging and name calling won't change a thing, if you guys want to affect change then you need to vote with your wallets. I will be doing exactly that by continuing to buy products for a game I love.

Fine, prices go up, but stores will still close. I'm glad for the moral minority and those shop owners that will get to keep a few extra coppers in their chest. Here's the stand I'll take: if they stop putting small ship fixes in epic boxes I'll happily eat the additional cost of X-Wing ownership. I felt dirty buying the Raider and Gozanti (which both remain in their box, cards removed), but there was some small salve in getting them online at discount price. I am perfectly happy with fixing ships via new ships, or Aces packs, but the epic bait has to end.

"Buy the cards online", you say. There is marginal difference buying the cards away from the ship; a quick search of Ebay I see X1+ATC sets selling for 15USD--that will only go up. Perhaps if you need one of something paying 15-20 bucks on the aftermarket will be OK, but if you need more you're paying for the ship without getting the plastic (perhaps storage is an issue!).

Yes, I think there could be better ways for FFG to give a LGS an advantage. The question is, is there a better way to do that, and increase FFG's profits?

I don't think there is, no. Again, I'm not opposed to what ANA/FFG is doing, and if FFG portrayed their position as "We are making this change to secure our profitability with the added/needed benefit of making LGS more competitive with online retailers." I'm cool with it. It's the whole "We're doing this for the LGS! And the children, don't forget the children!" that I take exception to. Hope that makes sense.

My attempt to haggle at Starbucks failed. I tried to explain the value of the three shells was clearly equal to the small cold brew.

She just stared back silently.

Judgingly.

People are very price sensitive they left GW in droves as the value of their product dropped, gamers don't like getting less for their money and these days there's no shortage of options.

The increase in price was only part of the issue that GW has.

Yes but if you look at the list of complaints price is always at the top, in my case the blatant cash grab of 7th ed a mere two years after 6th was the final straw.

It's not that I can't afford their prices it's that I can't justify them to myself.

As I said price sensitive 40k stopped being good value for my money so I left, if x-wing went the same way I'd just use what I have and never buy again as I have done with GW.

The LGS may steal some sales now because they are more competitive, but I don't think it will move the needle that much.

That very well may be true. But then again the price MM is listing for Wave 8 may be a step up, just because MM is taking advantage of the news to raise their prices. Or maybe it's a temp increase to get people ready for the real increase.But again I agree if the discount is still 25% then this will have very little impact.

If FFG really wants to save the LGS or help them, they absolutely can give them a competitive advantage.

Yes, I think there could be better ways for FFG to give a LGS an advantage. The question is, is there a better way to do that, and increase FFG's profits?

Which is another indication of how FFGs PR falls flat. They could probably do many things that would help the LGS compete so it could grow the market, without necessarily impacting customers financially in the process. But the easy button is just to raise the wholesale price/lower the discount to online sellers. Money now, plus a good story/benefit to LGS or both depending on what you believe.

Yes, I think there could be better ways for FFG to give a LGS an advantage. The question is, is there a better way to do that, and increase FFG's profits?

I don't think there is, no. Again, I'm not opposed to what ANA/FFG is doing, and if FFG portrayed their position as "We are making this change to secure our profitability with the added/needed benefit of making LGS more competitive with online retailers." I'm cool with it. It's the whole "We're doing this for the LGS! And the children, don't forget the children!" that I take exception to. Hope that makes sense.

It's a valid opinion (though there are relatively few invalid opinions I suppose) but I'm going to assume one of the minority. The pr team is paid to make things look good and 'save the lgs' will probably feel better to many than 'more profit for ffg!'