Starbane, on 01 Jan 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:Starbane, on 01 Jan 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

In regards to cafes and pubs, my biggest question would be, what do they offer FFG that would entice them to support them as partners over an LGS?

An LGS offers:

1. Table space to play FFG games.

2. Shelf space for their products, so people that play there (and people who don't) can buy their products.

3. Promotion through leagues, store championships, and regional championships.

Cafe or pub offers:

1. Table space to play FFG games.

Online sellers offer:

1. A web site for customers to buy FFG products from the convenience of their home.

It is pretty obvious that they all offer something to FFG/ANA as potential business partners, but that the LGS offers the most.

Gaming cafes can offer all 3 of your listed LGS benefits. They could sell in x wing in store if they wished. That would then put them into the category allowing official tournaments. Even if they don't carry x wing they could create non official league play and offer non official prizes etc. Official tournament play is not necessary to have a great x wing league scene.

Cafes/Pubs can have all sorts of gaming league play for different games and genres.

A well funded and run Gaming Café/Store/Pub is light-years better than your average stinky corner gaming hole in the wall. The bad stores still account for the majority of stores since most people opening gaming stores have very limited capital.

Here is link to FFGs own café/store that is right across the street from their headquarters. They serve food, drinks (including beer) and sell many gaming products including NON ffg games. These kinds of stores are the real futures of gaming.

Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H8clpLh3zY

Gaming stores do not need artificial price floors to make themselves competitive. They need to give us what WE WANT to be competitive. The FFG store is exactly what I am looking for in a store.

I think you're confusing 'cafe' with 'any place I deem clean enough to not be an LGS.' You know what you call an establishment that provides table space and retail product? An LGS.

Here is another example of what the future of gaming is -

Snakes and Lattes - Toronto Canada

http://www.snakesandlattes.com/shop/

You tube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPVFmXng2HdbHDtRLReorPg

Really awesome shop. Opening another store I believe soon. Serves food and beer. Watch the you tube videos just excellent to see.

Not every town can support a large store like this but these are excellent examples of successful Game Cafes/Pubs. They didn't need some sort of Corporate enforced price points to be competitive. They are giving customers in their area what they need instead.

Nah, this thread doesn't need to be locked.

1. It's been fairly civil for a while now.

2. If it's locked it'll just spill over into other threads or a new one will get started. Might as well keep it contained here as long as things remain civil.

There is a a whole lot of armchair CEOing going on in this thread by both sides, but especially the adapt or die faction. Has anyone here been a part of the deliberation process Peterson mentioned in the article? Has anyone been privy to FFG's sales data? Marketing research? How about business plan, has anybody read their business plan for FFG? I mean beyond what Peterson wrote of it in the article which seems to be they want to increase their support of LGS.

Did anybody happen to notice where Peterson talked about their sales relationships with retailers and Distributors? Ah hell, I'll just copy it.

"As part of that process, we engage in relationships with distribution and retail businesses that provide services in facilitating our road-to-market for the product, i.e. getting the product to the consumer. These parties take inventory risk, assist in communicating product benefits, and facilitate getting the physical product transacted to the consumer.

In return for services provided, we pay distributors and retailers in the form of trade discounts, this is their incentive to invest, and hopefully allows them to achieve success in their business.

I believe business partners who provide services and investment that we value, relative to others who do not, should receive proportional compensation from us so that they may succeed and continue in such activities.

In comparison to, for example, the online channel of sales, most specialty retailers make investments in areas we consider critical to the health and growth of the gaming hobby, such as a local presence, instant product availability, new customer generation, and crucially, in-store gaming events, demonstrations, tournaments, and organized play facilitation."

Basically he is saying that they give trade discounts in return for services provided and that online sellers were getting equivalent benefits for providing less services. Whether they are right or wrong about it remains to be seen, but they feel LGS's provided more services for the same discount as online sellers were getting and felt a need to balance the scales. Without inside knowledge how can any of us assert this is untrue? How is it bad business to protect your own interest by protecting the interests of your most important partners?

I copied this link from another thread.https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z1omBqcY0moQ.kWX7uMpCOSRQ

How many of those pins represent online distributors or even cafes and pubs?

The major flaw in your logic is the vast majority of local gaming stores are not offering real value to their customers. This has been repeated over and over by many not just in this forum but Boardgamegeek. Many game stores are not decent places. And that does matter for us the customers.

The market pressures that are creating more gaming cafes and pubs is the natural progression of this industry. Not propping up dying game stores who refuse to adapt to take care of their customers.

I would guess there are more good LGS than you credit and your statement certainly doesn't jive with my personal experience as I (coincidentally) elaborated on up thread. That map I linked to sure makes the future of playing X-wing in game store look bright, doesn't it?

Did you ever think that if you had supported your LGS they would have been more successful and better able to grow into the type of shop I have?

So if a local store is NOT giving me the environment, goods and services I want according to you I must support them in the hope they will someday? That's pretty amazing business thinking there.

The major flaw in your logic is the vast majority of local gaming stores are not offering real value to their customers. This has been repeated over and over by many not just in this forum but Boardgamegeek. Many game stores are not decent places. And that does matter for us the customers.

Speak for yourself. I value the free gaming space, active local gaming community, and organized play events provided by my local gaming stores. And all the local stores I am familiar with are clean, well lit, and staffed by reasonably nice people. I'm sorry if your LGS sucks. Mine doesn't.

What value do the online retailers provide? Cheap prices is the only thing. If that is all you care about, then you've got nothing to worry about. Online stores will still be much cheaper than the average local game store even after FFGs new policies take effect.

The market pressures that are creating more gaming cafes and pubs is the natural progression of this industry. Not propping up dying game stores who refuse to adapt to take care of their customers.

Good luck finding a gaming cafes if you don't live in a major metropolitan area. The place where I live has over half a million residents but we still don't have a gaming cafe and I don't expect one to open anytime soon.

I guess this kid expects the industry to bend over backwards just so he can get cheap toys online. It really is no wonder that the international community looks down on us Americans.

Tokyogriz you just made the case against your own argument. Not every town can support a large store like this.

All the Gaming Pubs I have found seem to need a population North of 250k to work. So you are in a sense saying if you don't live in a big city give up OP and suffer in silence.

lol.

They are not enforcing minimum prices.

They are simply choosing to not give online retailers as big a discount as they give actual stores.

I think they're assuming this magical new business model will be entirely self-sustaining. What they don't seem to understand is that if renting table space alone was profitable it would already be a thing - but it isn't.

Three thriving gaming clubs in an obscure UK market town that thinks it's a real city suggests that you can keep the lights on by just providing a place to play. The main club I attend decreased it's prices to £1 a night because the amount of revinue it was generating far exceeds the money necessary to hire the hall, buy copies of games and substantially subsidise drinks. It's an environment where, unlike our LGS, parents are happy to bring their children safe in the knowledge that Conan the nub crusher and friends are not going to destroy their interest in gaming as a hobby. We even ran an escalation league over the summer. No FFG support sadly but it must have taken us all of a couple of hours to organise.

I've also gathered the impression that people don't understand the difference between a true game shop and a Magic store. Any yahoo with a little capital and a Magic collection can rent some real estate to trade out of, but those shops often close just as fast as they open their doors. That's what happens when your entire business model is subject to the whims of the market and you have no retail product to fall back on. "Fees for gaming" just isn't sustainable.

No true Scotsman...

Yeah? I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Go organize an event somewhere that isn't an LGS and tell me how much more time, energy, and personal resources ($$) it takes. Bonus points if you can finagle FFG into selling you an event kit.

X Wing is not my first rodeo. I've particpated in, and ran, events in local stores, church halls, scout halls, municipal halls, town halls, peoples sheds and garages, and anywhere else you can think of.

Honestly, running events in stores can be the WORST place to run them, because the owner sometimes feels like he has to interject, and comes up with all these venue specific rules that make life harder for everyone. Give me a good church hall any day.

I honestly don't understand why people are worried there will be no-where to play, and no one to play against if their local store goes out of business.

I would guess there are more good LGS than you credit and your statement certainly doesn't jive with my personal experience as I (coincidentally) elaborated on up thread. That map I linked to sure makes the future of playing X-wing in game store look bright, doesn't it?

Did you ever think that if you had supported your LGS they would have been more successful and better able to grow into the type of shop I have?

So if a local store is NOT giving me the environment, goods and services I want according to you I must support them in the hope they will someday? That's pretty amazing business thinking there.

If you don't want to put the effort into helping your local community grow you don't have too, but if everybody has that attitude you won't have a community to be a part of.

That FFG Game Center is sweet. As nice as my stores are I'm jealous. I'm pretty sure we couldn't support a facility that size where I live. My largest store has 10-12 war game tables with lots of terrain for them, and at least 10 3x6 folding tables for card and board games. Considering the local population, I'm thrilled to have a clean and comfortable game store that size.

I don't think there are very many cities in this country that could support a game store like the FFG Game Center.

You can't equate UK and US gaming. The cultures are just too different. The concept of "third space" is much more prevalent in the UK.

Yeah? I challenge you to put your money where your mouth is. Go organize an event somewhere that isn't an LGS and tell me how much more time, energy, and personal resources ($$) it takes. Bonus points if you can finagle FFG into selling you an event kit.

X Wing is not my first rodeo. I've particpated in, and ran, events in local stores, church halls, scout halls, municipal halls, town halls, peoples sheds and garages, and anywhere else you can think of.Honestly, running events in stores can be the WORST place to run them, because the owner sometimes feels like he has to interject, and comes up with all these venue specific rules that make life harder for everyone. Give me a good church hall any day.I honestly don't understand why people are worried there will be no-where to play, and no one to play against if their local store goes out of business.

Maybe because it's where they met their gaming friends and first learned to play the games they are currently playing.

Maybe because they will miss the community that grew up around the game store.

Sure you can always play casual games at home, but maybe some will miss the league nights, store championship, and regional championships.

Honestly, I don't want any small business to fail, not even the ones, I don't patronize or even know about. They are important to our local communities and somebody(s) livelyhood.

Not at all. What I'm suggesting is that if everybody in your area buys their games online and then shows up at the local game store to play their online discounted games, then you won't have a game store for very long.

If you don't want to put the effort into helping your local community grow you don't have too, but if everybody has that attitude you won't have a community to be a part of.

That FFG Game Center is sweet. As nice as my stores are I'm jealous. I'm pretty sure we couldn't support a facility that size where I live. My largest store has 10-12 war game tables with lots of terrain for them, and at least 10 3x6 folding tables for card and board games. Considering the local population, I'm thrilled to have a clean and comfortable game store that size.

I don't think there are very many cities in this country that could support a game store like the FFG Game Center.

See, this is sort of what I don't get. Losing a game store doesn't mean losing the gaming community. And simply going to a game store does not equate to building a community. Communities exist separately to games stores and the loss of one does not equate to the loss of the other. A game store is not a requirement for a thriving and active gaming community.

I'd even go so far as to say that taking FFG out of the tournament scene could only be a good thing. When Games Workshop stopped running their official GTs it turned out to be the best thing to happen to the tournament scene in a long time since it freed the community to run any sort of tournament they wanted. I'd love to see an end to FFGs tournament restrictions, and see some great third parties step up to the mark to run a wider range of competitive events.

Not at all. What I'm suggesting is that if everybody in your area buys their games online and then shows up at the local game store to play their online discounted games, then you won't have a game store for very long.

If you don't want to put the effort into helping your local community grow you don't have too, but if everybody has that attitude you won't have a community to be a part of.

That FFG Game Center is sweet. As nice as my stores are I'm jealous. I'm pretty sure we couldn't support a facility that size where I live. My largest store has 10-12 war game tables with lots of terrain for them, and at least 10 3x6 folding tables for card and board games. Considering the local population, I'm thrilled to have a clean and comfortable game store that size.

I don't think there are very many cities in this country that could support a game store like the FFG Game Center.

See, this is sort of what I don't get. Losing a game store doesn't mean losing the gaming community. And simply going to a game store does not equate to building a community. Communities exist separately to games stores and the loss of one does not equate to the loss of the other. A game store is not a requirement for a thriving and active gaming community.

I'd even go so far as to say that taking FFG out of the tournament scene could only be a good thing. When Games Workshop stopped running their official GTs it turned out to be the best thing to happen to the tournament scene in a long time since it freed the community to run any sort of tournament they wanted. I'd love to see an end to FFGs tournament restrictions, and see some great third parties step up to the mark to run a wider range of competitive events.

Well if that works for you, great, but try to realize there are a lot of different gamers out there with different needs and wants. If we lost our game stores it would put a huge dent in my gaming activities and I'm not alone.

If you don't mind me asking what do you have against FFG's tournaments and you do know you can have 3rd party tournaments with your own rules even if FFG tournaments exist, right?

Well if that works for you, great, but try to realize there are a lot of different gamers out there with different needs and wants. If we lost our game stores it would put a huge dent in my gaming activities and I'm not alone.

It doesn't have to put a dent in anything. There are heaps of places where a gaming group can meet znd play games, and there's not even the start up costs associated with a regular gaming group (if X Wing is your only game) since the only "terrain" you need is some black tables.

If you don't mind me asking what do you have against FFG's tournaments and you do know you can have 3rd party tournaments with your own rules even if FFG tournaments exist, right?

This is true, but what we saw with the GW tournaments was that everyone wanted to use the official standard. When that standard was removed, people suddenly felt free to run and to attend any sort of event they wanted.

I have nothing against FFGs tournament rules (although some of them are a bit silly) but I hate the fact that every tournament, and by extension almost all pickup games, are 100 point deathmatches fought in an asteroid field containing exactly 6 asteroids. Variety is the spice of life and I feel like FFGs hand is stifling any variety in the tournament scene.

Maybe one of the reasons that so many of the anti-FLGS crowd doesn't like FLGSs is because they don't know what a real one looks like (compared to a dingy comic-books store filled with non-bathing teenagers - DCBSFWNBT). Also, the adapt-or-die people seem to not see that FLGSs are adapting and thriving.

In my area, there are two FLGSs in bicycling distance; three more if I want to get on the light rail, and another awesome one if I can motivate myself to cross the river. There's also a DCBSFWNBT that seems to want to transition itself into an FLGS. Some of the FLGSs have transitioned into starting to offer more pub-like services. One of them is more of an eatery with a lot of gaming stuff for sale.

Because of liquor laws, a few have to deny service to teenagers or have sequestered spaces for them. Another wanted to expand into a pub-like services, but plans were stymied when their front door got shattered by a car crashing into it, and then the landlord doubling the rent.

The point being: good gaming stores are good and they are adapting. If you don't see it, maybe you live in an area that doesn't have the community to support such a store. Maybe that's because it's filled with people (like yourselves) who prefer a couple dollars off to the chance at having an awesome FLGS. Maybe that's because all you have are one or two DCBSFWNBTs that don't provide one another with enough competition to transition into an FLGS. So, does that mean that FLGSs need a de facto subsidy in order to transition. Maybe, maybe not. It probably depends on your local gaming scene. But, a de facto subsidy can't hurt.

I also had the chance to visit Minneapolis recently, and found that it had a community someone like my own. I imagine that this is the environment that Petersen is looking at, rather than armpit towns with two DCBSFWNBTs and in which he envisions FFG-game-playing communities thriving.

Regarding the social-media argument that some on the anti-FLGS crowd are mentioning. In my town, we have quite a bit of Facebook/Meetup organizing. These don't replace FLGSs; they make FLGSs even more viable, and draw people in. Most of the people I play with I either met at the FLGS or connected with over Facebook and then arranged to meet at an FLGS. I only ever invited people to my home when I already knew them somewhat through encounters at the FLGS.

Maybe one of the reasons that so many of the anti-FLGS crowd doesn't like FLGSs is because they don't know what a real one looks like (compared to a dingy comic-books store filled with non-bathing teenagers - DCBSFWNBT). Also, the adapt-or-die people seem to not see that FLGSs are adapting and thriving.

Regardless of how the LGS or Death! crowd want to spin it a poor LGS is still an LGS. It's not a comic shop (we have one of those and it's a considerably more pleasant space to spend time in than our LGS) or a Magic Shop or anything else you might want to paint it as.

The fact that there are LGSs that are adapting is great, and also proves our point. The old model of a dingy shop filled with people of questionable attitude and even more questionable personal hygiene are in the process of passing. In the process many LGSs will fail and their place in the community will be taken by something else. There will still be public places to play, they just won't be cramped back rooms poorly adapted to the purpose any more. While I'm sure Conan the Nubcrusher and friends will hate it as they'll need to develop actual social skills (and bathe occasionally) most gamers should welcome this change as it'll mean there is somewhere pleasant to meet new gamers and to introduce people to the hobby, especially children.

stuff

One might observe that you're far more likely to encounter a person with poor hygiene just riding the TriMet.

Back to the No True Scotsman fallacy then?

I guess any argument implying specificity is a logical fallacy.

I guess any argument implying specificity is a logical fallacy.

If you can explain the difference between saying that a bad LGS is not a LGS and No True Scotsman I'm all ears.

I guess any argument implying specificity is a logical fallacy.

If you can explain the difference between saying that a bad LGS is not a LGS and No True Scotsman I'm all ears.

If you can explain to me how an informal fallacy actually renders our arguments invalid, I might deign to elucidate you in greater detail on the error of quibbling over word choice. In the mean time, I'm not going to waste my time and energy on a person who thinks that a trite, three word response to an otherwise salient point is anything but disrespectful.

Maybe one of the reasons that so many of the anti-FLGS crowd doesn't like FLGSs is because they don't know what a real one looks like (compared to a dingy comic-books store filled with non-bathing teenagers - DCBSFWNBT). Also, the adapt-or-die people seem to not see that FLGSs are adapting and thriving.

How good an FLGS can be doesn't really matter if you don't have access to a good one nearby. Expecting people to support an FLGS just cause it is one isn't really reasonable. I do agree that support for game stores is important, but those game stores actually have to be community centers then and put effort into building out a community. My local game store does community events but also charges 30%-40% above MSRP on a lot of things, so that still makes it hard to convince myself that I should spend money there, especially since I don't game in the store itself. (I'm actually a big proponent of just a small fee to rent a table or entry for game nights, that feels a lot fairer.)

Well, that's just fine, honestly. Nobody is forcing you to buy from them, especially at 40% over MSRP, which I've never even seen before. That's a bit crazy.

The problem is that right now the opposite is true. Even a good gaming store that spends money on their shop and offers a nice place to play isn't going to sell all of their FFG stuff at 40% off to compete with MM. FFG has decided to level the playing field a bit by reducing the gap between online retailers and brick and mortar ones, LGSs in particular.

You can still buy online. You can still buy online for probably cheaper than MSRP. It's just that it becomes a lot easier to buy where you play when its somewhere in the same ballpark as what is online.

I guess any argument implying specificity is a logical fallacy.

If you can explain the difference between saying that a bad LGS is not a LGS and No True Scotsman I'm all ears.

If you can explain to me how an informal fallacy actually renders our arguments invalid, I might deign to elucidate you in greater detail on the error of quibbling over word choice. In the mean time, I'm not going to waste my time and energy on a person who thinks that a trite, three word response to an otherwise salient point is anything but disrespectful.

Interesting given you are perfectly happy to derail a thread by accusing someone of strawman fallacies when they did no such thing, especially when a few pages before you condemn people for using the fallacy fallacy.

I'm a true Scotsman.

I play the pipes, eat haggis and drink whisky.

I also wear a kilt when appropriate.

Cheers

Baaa

Well if that works for you, great, but try to realize there are a lot of different gamers out there with different needs and wants. If we lost our game stores it would put a huge dent in my gaming activities and I'm not alone.

It doesn't have to put a dent in anything. There are heaps of places where a gaming group can meet znd play games, and there's not even the start up costs associated with a regular gaming group (if X Wing is your only game) since the only "terrain" you need is some black tables.

If you don't mind me asking what do you have against FFG's tournaments and you do know you can have 3rd party tournaments with your own rules even if FFG tournaments exist, right?

This is true, but what we saw with the GW tournaments was that everyone wanted to use the official standard. When that standard was removed, people suddenly felt free to run and to attend any sort of event they wanted.

I have nothing against FFGs tournament rules (although some of them are a bit silly) but I hate the fact that every tournament, and by extension almost all pickup games, are 100 point deathmatches fought in an asteroid field containing exactly 6 asteroids. Variety is the spice of life and I feel like FFGs hand is stifling any variety in the tournament scene.

I've always thought the place six asteroids and go was a little lacking in variety myself. I believe they do it for a consistent tournament experience where ever you may go. Regardless, it seems to be working well for them.

We (this online community, not you and I ) can debate the merits of game stores until we're blue in the face and not reach a consensus. What we need to remember is that, this was a business decision by ANA. It was what they think will be best for their business model moving forward. Whether any of us agree or disagree is irrelevant because we are not privy to all data and information that went into making the decision. Nor, to the best of my knowledge, are any of us staff level employees with input into the decision. We are customers with opinions. If anyone feels strongly enough about their stance, I'm sure ANA would appreciate a well thought out written response complete with charts and the appropriate data explaining why they are making a bad business decision. Short of that our options are to continue giving them our support (purchasing their products and attending their events) or to cease giving them our support. May we all be wise enough to make the decision that is in our best interests.

Of course we can also continue to, ahem, express ourselves on Internet forums too.