mazz0, on 01 Jan 2016 - 4:23 PM, said:

I certainly agree I'd rather play in a pub/cafe environment.

1000% more. Every gaming store I have ever been in stinks and is full of high school rejects. Its not the environment I want to hang out in.

A gaming pub/café that was nice, odor free and full of adults would be world class. That is the place I want to bring my family and friends to play.

Asmodee assuming they can force me to go somewhere I don't want is outrageous. Its absolute no respect for us their customers. And it wont work long term for them.

mazz0, on 01 Jan 2016 - 4:23 PM, said:

I certainly agree I'd rather play in a pub/cafe environment.

1000% more. Every gaming store I have ever been in stinks and is full of high school rejects. Its not the environment I want to hang out in.

A gaming pub/café that was nice, odor free and full of adults would be world class. That is the place I want to bring my family and friends to play.

Asmodee assuming they can force me to go somewhere I don't want is outrageous. Its absolute no respect for us their customers. And it wont work long term for them.

You can't go somewhere that doesn't exist, and the assumption that these magical gaming cafes are just going to pop up on every street corner is pure fantasy.

Why assume that the a gaming cafe will be any different? Just take those smelly people and imagine them drunk.

mazz0, on 01 Jan 2016 - 4:23 PM, said:

I certainly agree I'd rather play in a pub/cafe environment.

1000% more. Every gaming store I have ever been in stinks and is full of high school rejects. Its not the environment I want to hang out in.

A gaming pub/café that was nice, odor free and full of adults would be world class. That is the place I want to bring my family and friends to play.

Asmodee assuming they can force me to go somewhere I don't want is outrageous. Its absolute no respect for us their customers. And it wont work long term for them.

You can't go somewhere that doesn't exist, and the assumption that these magical gaming cafes are just going to pop up on every street corner is pure fantasy.

One place that isn't fantasy, and that is cited as a probably demo space for the flight crew contractors is local libraries. The ones near me have meeting rooms and some already hold cooking classes and other regular non-book events. I could see them as an intermediary until game cafes start popping up.

WonderWAAAGH, on 01 Jan 2016 - 6:26 PM, said:

Tokyogriz, on 01 Jan 2016 - 6:22 PM, said:

mazz0, on 01 Jan 2016 - 4:23 PM, said:

mazz0, on 01 Jan 2016 - 4:23 PM, said:

I certainly agree I'd rather play in a pub/cafe environment.

1000% more. Every gaming store I have ever been in stinks and is full of high school rejects. Its not the environment I want to hang out in.

A gaming pub/café that was nice, odor free and full of adults would be world class. That is the place I want to bring my family and friends to play.

Asmodee assuming they can force me to go somewhere I don't want is outrageous. Its absolute no respect for us their customers. And it wont work long term for them.

You can't go somewhere that doesn't exist, and the assumption that these magical gaming cafes are just going to pop up on every street corner is pure fantasy.

They do exist in some cities. More and more are appearing in fact. Usually in large metro areas. Market pressures bring them into play. There are many adults who want to go to places like this. FFG even has one at their headquarters in Minneapolis.

But Asmodee is trying to interfere with the market and create artificial pressure for us to go to gaming stores instead. The natural market forces are working to create more gaming cafes that would fill this need instead. That's what we as gamers really need, not artificial demands like Asmodee is trying to create with their new policy.

Nah, this thread doesn't need to be locked.

1. It's been fairly civil for a while now.

2. If it's locked it'll just spill over into other threads or a new one will get started. Might as well keep it contained here as long as things remain civil.

There is a a whole lot of armchair CEOing going on in this thread by both sides, but especially the adapt or die faction. Has anyone here been a part of the deliberation process Peterson mentioned in the article? Has anyone been privy to FFG's sales data? Marketing research? How about business plan, has anybody read their business plan for FFG? I mean beyond what Peterson wrote of it in the article which seems to be they want to increase their support of LGS.

Did anybody happen to notice where Peterson talked about their sales relationships with retailers and Distributors? Ah hell, I'll just copy it.

"As part of that process, we engage in relationships with distribution and retail businesses that provide services in facilitating our road-to-market for the product, i.e. getting the product to the consumer. These parties take inventory risk, assist in communicating product benefits, and facilitate getting the physical product transacted to the consumer.

In return for services provided, we pay distributors and retailers in the form of trade discounts, this is their incentive to invest, and hopefully allows them to achieve success in their business.

I believe business partners who provide services and investment that we value, relative to others who do not, should receive proportional compensation from us so that they may succeed and continue in such activities.

In comparison to, for example, the online channel of sales, most specialty retailers make investments in areas we consider critical to the health and growth of the gaming hobby, such as a local presence, instant product availability, new customer generation, and crucially, in-store gaming events, demonstrations, tournaments, and organized play facilitation."

Basically he is saying that they give trade discounts in return for services provided and that online sellers were getting equivalent benefits for providing less services. Whether they are right or wrong about it remains to be seen, but they feel LGS's provided more services for the same discount as online sellers were getting and felt a need to balance the scales. Without inside knowledge, how can any of us assert this is untrue? How is it bad business to protect your own interest by protecting the interests of your most important partners?

I copied this link from another thread.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z1omBqcY0moQ.kWX7uMpCOSRQ

How many of those pins represent online distributors or even cafes and pubs?

it was in a gaming pub that people told the new players to buy on line. it makes no difference

Honestly, the thing I'm most excited about is being able to direct order from FFG as a lgs.

All Shields Forward, on 01 Jan 2016 - 6:40 PM, said:

Honestly, the thing I'm most excited about is being able to direct order from FFG as a lgs.

So are you going to pass on savings to your customers? Or keep it for yourself?

All Shields Forward, on 01 Jan 2016 - 6:40 PM, said:

Honestly, the thing I'm most excited about is being able to direct order from FFG as a lgs.

So are you going to pass on savings to your customers? Or keep it for yourself?

or reinvest the income into more staff and space for events?

It's unlikely that FFG will be undercutting their old distributor rates much.

Nah, this thread doesn't need to be locked.

1. It's been fairly civil for a while now.

2. If it's locked it'll just spill over into other threads or a new one will get started. Might as well keep it contained here as long as things remain civil.

There is a a whole lot of armchair CEOing going on in this thread by both sides, but especially the adapt or die faction. Has anyone here been a part of the deliberation process Peterson mentioned in the article? Has anyone been privy to FFG's sales data? Marketing research? How about business plan, has anybody read their business plan for FFG? I mean beyond what Peterson wrote of it in the article which seems to be they want to increase their support of LGS.

Did anybody happen to notice where Peterson talked about their sales relationships with retailers and Distributors? Ah hell, I'll just copy it.

"As part of that process, we engage in relationships with distribution and retail businesses that provide services in facilitating our road-to-market for the product, i.e. getting the product to the consumer. These parties take inventory risk, assist in communicating product benefits, and facilitate getting the physical product transacted to the consumer.

In return for services provided, we pay distributors and retailers in the form of trade discounts, this is their incentive to invest, and hopefully allows them to achieve success in their business.

I believe business partners who provide services and investment that we value, relative to others who do not, should receive proportional compensation from us so that they may succeed and continue in such activities.

In comparison to, for example, the online channel of sales, most specialty retailers make investments in areas we consider critical to the health and growth of the gaming hobby, such as a local presence, instant product availability, new customer generation, and crucially, in-store gaming events, demonstrations, tournaments, and organized play facilitation."

Basically he is saying that they give trade discounts in return for services provided and that online sellers were getting equivalent benefits for providing less services. Whether they are right or wrong about it remains to be seen, but they feel LGS's provided more services for the same discount as online sellers were getting and felt a need to balance the scales. Without inside knowledge how can any of us assert this is untrue? How is it bad business to protect your own interest by protecting the interests of your most important partners?

I copied this link from another thread.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z1omBqcY0moQ.kWX7uMpCOSRQ

How many of those pins represent online distributors or even cafes and pubs?

The major flaw in your logic is the vast majority of local gaming stores are not offering real value to their customers. This has been repeated over and over by many not just in this forum but Boardgamegeek. Many game stores are not decent places. And that does matter for us the customers.

The market pressures that are creating more gaming cafes and pubs is the natural progression of this industry. Not propping up dying game stores who refuse to adapt to take care of their customers.

All Shields Forward, on 01 Jan 2016 - 6:40 PM, said:

Honestly, the thing I'm most excited about is being able to direct order from FFG as a lgs.

So are you going to pass on savings to your customers? Or keep it for yourself?

or reinvest the income into more staff and space for events?

It's unlikely that FFG will be undercutting their old distributor rates much.

And ... this is FFG keeping more money for themselves not actually helping out Local stores. If what your saying about their direct price being the same as the distributor price. Would not surprise me but supports the idea that this is about money grab for the corporation not "helping" the poor game stores.

Do you know if it will be any cheaper? For me it's about my friends not being forced to buy from a competitor selling online.

@tokyogriz

your the only one framing the issue as "helping the poor game stores"

it's not an act of charity to preserve your important sales and distribution channels.

I'm guessing this is really about cutting third party distributors out of the equation and handling the costs and logistics of distribution themselves. the cost of ordering from a distributor is likely going to rise where the cost of ordering direct is likely to fall or be a parody of the old distributor rates.

Asmodee is trying to capitalize on what they see as a much larger potential market that is underserved by the relatively poor distributor and industrial infrastructure in the US. In europe the industry is overall better organised (there are troubles getting american based product there for sure but that i would fault american distributors and publishers for that)

mazz0, on 01 Jan 2016 - 4:23 PM, said:

I certainly agree I'd rather play in a pub/cafe environment.

1000% more. Every gaming store I have ever been in stinks and is full of high school rejects. Its not the environment I want to hang out in.

A gaming pub/café that was nice, odor free and full of adults would be world class. That is the place I want to bring my family and friends to play.

Asmodee assuming they can force me to go somewhere I don't want is outrageous. Its absolute no respect for us their customers. And it wont work long term for them.

Not me. I have 2 nice game shops within 7 miles. Spacious game tables, mostly showered customers, it's great. All of the people I currently game with, save for one, I met at one of those stores. All of the games I currently play, I was introduced to at one of those stores. Both stores offer a 20% discount on purchases over $100 and a 10% on the rest. Why wouldn't I want to support these businesses? What would a cafe or pub offer me that these stores don't? I don't even have a cafe or pub that is set up to let me play X-wing, at least as far as I know of. I do have a donut shop that sets aside 1 Friday a month for people to come in and play games. Yea, one Friday a month, like that will replace my local game stores.

I realize that this doesn't apply to everyone, but what these store offer me is way more important to me than the discount I can get online, they give me a community. I am sorry for those of you that can't get this experience, but just because you don't have it, don't assume that others don't either. While I am sorry for those who are going to be experiencing a price increase, I understand what ANA is trying to accomplish (grow their business by growing their most important partner's business) and think it's for the best.

Nah, this thread doesn't need to be locked.

1. It's been fairly civil for a while now.

2. If it's locked it'll just spill over into other threads or a new one will get started. Might as well keep it contained here as long as things remain civil.

There is a a whole lot of armchair CEOing going on in this thread by both sides, but especially the adapt or die faction. Has anyone here been a part of the deliberation process Peterson mentioned in the article? Has anyone been privy to FFG's sales data? Marketing research? How about business plan, has anybody read their business plan for FFG? I mean beyond what Peterson wrote of it in the article which seems to be they want to increase their support of LGS.

Did anybody happen to notice where Peterson talked about their sales relationships with retailers and Distributors? Ah hell, I'll just copy it.

"As part of that process, we engage in relationships with distribution and retail businesses that provide services in facilitating our road-to-market for the product, i.e. getting the product to the consumer. These parties take inventory risk, assist in communicating product benefits, and facilitate getting the physical product transacted to the consumer.

In return for services provided, we pay distributors and retailers in the form of trade discounts, this is their incentive to invest, and hopefully allows them to achieve success in their business.

I believe business partners who provide services and investment that we value, relative to others who do not, should receive proportional compensation from us so that they may succeed and continue in such activities.

In comparison to, for example, the online channel of sales, most specialty retailers make investments in areas we consider critical to the health and growth of the gaming hobby, such as a local presence, instant product availability, new customer generation, and crucially, in-store gaming events, demonstrations, tournaments, and organized play facilitation."

Basically he is saying that they give trade discounts in return for services provided and that online sellers were getting equivalent benefits for providing less services. Whether they are right or wrong about it remains to be seen, but they feel LGS's provided more services for the same discount as online sellers were getting and felt a need to balance the scales. Without inside knowledge how can any of us assert this is untrue? How is it bad business to protect your own interest by protecting the interests of your most important partners?

I copied this link from another thread.https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=z1omBqcY0moQ.kWX7uMpCOSRQ

How many of those pins represent online distributors or even cafes and pubs?

The major flaw in your logic is the vast majority of local gaming stores are not offering real value to their customers. This has been repeated over and over by many not just in this forum but Boardgamegeek. Many game stores are not decent places. And that does matter for us the customers.

The market pressures that are creating more gaming cafes and pubs is the natural progression of this industry. Not propping up dying game stores who refuse to adapt to take care of their customers.

I would guess there are more good LGS than you credit and your statement certainly doesn't jive with my personal experience as I (coincidentally) elaborated on up thread. That map I linked to sure makes the future of playing X-wing in game store look bright, doesn't it?

Did you ever think that if you had supported your LGS they would have been more successful and better able to grow into the type of shop I have?

WonderWAAAGH, on 01 Jan 2016 - 6:26 PM, said:

Tokyogriz, on 01 Jan 2016 - 6:22 PM, said:

mazz0, on 01 Jan 2016 - 4:23 PM, said:

mazz0, on 01 Jan 2016 - 4:23 PM, said:

I certainly agree I'd rather play in a pub/cafe environment.

1000% more. Every gaming store I have ever been in stinks and is full of high school rejects. Its not the environment I want to hang out in.

A gaming pub/café that was nice, odor free and full of adults would be world class. That is the place I want to bring my family and friends to play.

Asmodee assuming they can force me to go somewhere I don't want is outrageous. Its absolute no respect for us their customers. And it wont work long term for them.

You can't go somewhere that doesn't exist, and the assumption that these magical gaming cafes are just going to pop up on every street corner is pure fantasy.

They do exist in some cities. More and more are appearing in fact. Usually in large metro areas. Market pressures bring them into play. There are many adults who want to go to places like this. FFG even has one at their headquarters in Minneapolis.

But Asmodee is trying to interfere with the market and create artificial pressure for us to go to gaming stores instead. The natural market forces are working to create more gaming cafes that would fill this need instead. That's what we as gamers really need, not artificial demands like Asmodee is trying to create with their new policy.

Where are these fantasy gaming cafes? Is there actually one near you, or are we still just assuming that enterprising gamers are going to saddle themselves with the same inherent business risks as current LGS owners? "Oh, cafes are on the rise, and someone's undoubtedly going to make more!" amounts to little better than speculation, and not exactly the most well-reasoned, not coming from the biggest tantrum thrower here. Even if we assumed that cafes replacing LGS' was an inevitability, there's no reason to believe that would happen before FFG's coffers dry up.

We get it, you're mad, and you'll say anything to justify your outrage. So keep stamping your feet, keep ignoring every sensible post that crosses your screen, and keep buying online 'cause dammit, you'll show them! Just do us all a favor and brood over your misconceptions in silence. Acting like a petulant child isn't advancing the conversation, and it sure won't undo ANA's new policy.

I also laugh that these gaming cafes will be any different than LGS's. I mean, the same people who get into opening a gaming store will likely be the same people who open these cafes.

And guess what, these gaming cafes are going to need Magic players as well, so a lot of the same issues with clientele. At least with my stores, they schedule time out for my games.

EDIT: Actually, you know what, keep food out of it. Dear god, do you seriously want some of the people who shouldn't have opened a store in the first place to also handle food? Gaming cafes really should not be the future...

My FLGS is opening a bar in the shop next door, with a door between the two. It's going to be sweet!

Community isn't the exclusive domain of the FLGS. Facebook has more to do with growing the X Wing community than FLGS do. Should we also tack a 'facebook tax' onto the price of our models? After all, we seem to think that subsidising the local games store is fine because they grow the community.

You've got it backwards. It is the online retailers that are being subsidized. They are benefiting from the demand that is generated by FLGSs and the Internet but they aren't doing the heavy lifting of running tournaments, providing free gaming space, or promoting products to people who aren't already in the hobby. FFG is giving them a discount in recognition of the work they do which promotes FFGs products, not because they are a charity. Online retailers don't get that discount because they don't get to take credit for the growth in the industry generated by Facebook, YouTube, et al.

In fact, many games stores are smelly nerd dungeons that actively turn people AWAY from the hobby.

The stinky nerds that hang out in local game stores will still stink when they switch to playing in whatever free gaming space you imagine will spring up to replace all the game stores that have gone out of business.

The future is well run shops with drink and food service operated by well compensated professionals along with professional event staff supported by publishers.

I live near many amazing retailers That offer these services and still the prevailing wisdom was to buy online because of the discounts available.

Eat your vegetables.

You expect the whole world to change because you want to save a few dollars a ship.

In regards to cafes and pubs, my biggest question would be, what do they offer FFG that would entice them to support them as partners over an LGS?

An LGS offers:

1. Table space to play FFG games.

2. Shelf space for their products, so people that play there (and people who don't) can buy their products.

3. Promotion through leagues, store championships, and regional championships.

Cafe or pub offers:

1. Table space to play FFG games.

Online sellers offer:

1. A web site for customers to buy FFG products from the convenience of their home.

It is pretty obvious that they all offer something to FFG/ANA as potential business partners, but that the LGS offers the most.

In regards to cafes and pubs, my biggest question would be, what do they offer FFG that would entice them to support them as partners over an LGS?

An LGS offers:

1. Table space to play FFG games.

2. Shelf space for their products, so people that play there (and people who don't) can buy their products.

3. Promotion through leagues, store championships, and regional championships.

Cafe or pub offers:

1. Table space to play FFG games.

Online sellers offer:

1. A web site for customers to buy FFG products from the convenience of their home.

It is pretty obvious that they all offer something to FFG/ANA as potential business partners, but that the LGS offers the most.

I think they're assuming this magical new business model will be entirely self-sustaining. What they don't seem to understand is that if renting table space alone was profitable it would already be a thing - but it isn't. The market isn't going to speak for itself anymore than it already has, not on that front. Does anyone really think that gamers, already accustomed to free table space, are going to go elsewhere and pay for a service they already get for free because it saves them a trip to Starbucks?

I've also gathered the impression that people don't understand the difference between a true game shop and a Magic store. Any yahoo with a little capital and a Magic collection can rent some real estate to trade out of, but those shops often close just as fast as they open their doors. That's what happens when your entire business model is subject to the whims of the market and you have no retail product to fall back on. "Fees for gaming" just isn't sustainable.

Starbane, on 01 Jan 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:Starbane, on 01 Jan 2016 - 10:12 PM, said:

In regards to cafes and pubs, my biggest question would be, what do they offer FFG that would entice them to support them as partners over an LGS?

An LGS offers:

1. Table space to play FFG games.

2. Shelf space for their products, so people that play there (and people who don't) can buy their products.

3. Promotion through leagues, store championships, and regional championships.

Cafe or pub offers:

1. Table space to play FFG games.

Online sellers offer:

1. A web site for customers to buy FFG products from the convenience of their home.

It is pretty obvious that they all offer something to FFG/ANA as potential business partners, but that the LGS offers the most.

Gaming cafes can offer all 3 of your listed LGS benefits. They could sell in x wing in store if they wished. That would then put them into the category allowing official tournaments. Even if they don't carry x wing they could create non official league play and offer non official prizes etc. Official tournament play is not necessary to have a great x wing league scene.

Cafes/Pubs can have all sorts of gaming league play for different games and genres.

A well funded and run Gaming Café/Store/Pub is light-years better than your average stinky corner gaming hole in the wall. The bad stores still account for the majority of stores since most people opening gaming stores have very limited capital.

Here is link to FFGs own café/store that is right across the street from their headquarters. They serve food, drinks (including beer) and sell many gaming products including NON ffg games. These kinds of stores are the real futures of gaming.

Link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H8clpLh3zY

Gaming stores do not need artificial price floors to make themselves competitive. They need to give us what WE WANT to be competitive. The FFG store is exactly what I am looking for in a store.