Anyone else feel Kylo Ren was a metaphorical interpretation of the Star Wars fandom?

His childish tantrums when he didn't get his own way are reminiscent of Star Wars fanatics and how they react to the movies, series, books and games. As well as how they interact with each other.

I can imagine some who comment on the forums smashing their computers in a fit of rage.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

He was wounded, in several places no less, and she was clearly both naturally gifted and trained (she was remembering her training after Kylo reminded her of it, and she gave herself over to the Force to guide her movements, and even then she was hardly a master swordsman).

Yeah, having read the new book about Luke, her "transformation" didn't bother me. Both this movie and the book portray "getting it" with the force in the same way. For some reason it just eventually clicks, usually because you just stop thinking about it due to stress, fatigue, whatever. (Somewhat reminiscent of Yoda training Luke on Dagobah as well actually, with all the running and hand stands and whatnot). It is kind of like learning to whistle. You can tell a person a hundred times how, and they can practice for hours, but eventually they just stumble on the right combination to make it work. Once they do, that's it. It works. Some people stumble on it in the first five minutes, and some people take years and many failures to figure it out.

That, and I'm still pretty convinced Rey was in Luke's Jedi Summer Camp and her evacuation happened when Kylo killed everyone else.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

This is right on. Kylo had likely been practicing for years, had some training at the hands of luke and was good enough to kill every other trainee. The only excuse he has is that he was wounded, which i would have prefered been more obvious if that was the reason.

Then there is maz' ties everything up chracter. When I start having flashbacks to jeepers creepers in the theatre it is a bad sign!

Wtf with sleeping beauty r2d2? I could go on and on with little nitpicky things. I thought the movie was entertaining overall but with the resources at their disposal why wasn't this the best movie I've ever seen?

Not the best movie despite all the money and talent? Is that what you think makes a great movie?

Someone with a vision to tell a story and tell it well, pushing the medium to its limits, this is what makes great movies. On this only Star Wars (the first one, what they call ANH now) out of this saga qualifies because it was a loving homage to movies in general and some in specific including The Hidden Fortress, as well as pushing the boundaries of special effects to amazing heights. Star Wars was a great work of art that told an ancient story but told it well and with great craftsmanship and care, making something unique. Then came the sequels. And yes TESB is a great sequel and I would say a great movie but it can't stand alone, it needs ANH to exist, and it needs ROTJ for closure.

Great movies stand the test of time, true classics like Wizard of Oz, 2001, Metropolis, and hundreds of others. Is TFA a good movie? Yes. Is it great? Well....

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

He was wounded, in several places no less, and she was clearly both naturally gifted and trained (she was remembering her training after Kylo reminded her of it, and she gave herself over to the Force to guide her movements, and even then she was hardly a master swordsman).

Yeah, having read the new book about Luke, her "transformation" didn't bother me. Both this movie and the book portray "getting it" with the force in the same way. For some reason it just eventually clicks, usually because you just stop thinking about it due to stress, fatigue, whatever. (Somewhat reminiscent of Yoda training Luke on Dagobah as well actually, with all the running and hand stands and whatnot). It is kind of like learning to whistle. You can tell a person a hundred times how, and they can practice for hours, but eventually they just stumble on the right combination to make it work. Once they do, that's it. It works. Some people stumble on it in the first five minutes, and some people take years and many failures to figure it out.

That, and I'm still pretty convinced Rey was in Luke's Jedi Summer Camp and her evacuation happened when Kylo killed everyone else.

Or Rey was dumped on that desert planet by a newly dark side Ren to spite Luke and because Kylo wasn't evil enough yet to kill younglings, or kin.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

This is right on. Kylo had likely been practicing for years, had some training at the hands of luke and was good enough to kill every other trainee. The only excuse he has is that he was wounded, which i would have prefered been more obvious if that was the reason.

Then there is maz' ties everything up chracter. When I start having flashbacks to jeepers creepers in the theatre it is a bad sign!

Wtf with sleeping beauty r2d2? I could go on and on with little nitpicky things. I thought the movie was entertaining overall but with the resources at their disposal why wasn't this the best movie I've ever seen?

I think your assumptions about Kylo are just as unknown. He might have spent all his time learning to do force mind tricks and neglected his saber training. His attack on the Jedi might have been sneaky, or he might have just been by far the oldest and most trained amongst children. Or he might have had significant help from Snoke. We just don't know what happened.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

He was wounded, in several places no less, and she was clearly both naturally gifted and trained (she was remembering her training after Kylo reminded her of it, and she gave herself over to the Force to guide her movements, and even then she was hardly a master swordsman).

Yeah, having read the new book about Luke, her "transformation" didn't bother me. Both this movie and the book portray "getting it" with the force in the same way. For some reason it just eventually clicks, usually because you just stop thinking about it due to stress, fatigue, whatever. (Somewhat reminiscent of Yoda training Luke on Dagobah as well actually, with all the running and hand stands and whatnot). It is kind of like learning to whistle. You can tell a person a hundred times how, and they can practice for hours, but eventually they just stumble on the right combination to make it work. Once they do, that's it. It works. Some people stumble on it in the first five minutes, and some people take years and many failures to figure it out.

That, and I'm still pretty convinced Rey was in Luke's Jedi Summer Camp and her evacuation happened when Kylo killed everyone else.

Or Rey was dumped on that desert planet by a newly dark side Ren to spite Luke and because Kylo wasn't evil enough yet to kill younglings, or kin.

At the end of the day, it's a movie.

People are allowed to love it or hate it for their own reasons.

Well, sort of yea.

But if they hate it because Rey "beat a Sith Lord" then they are objectively mistaken.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

But he's not saying that. He's saying Kylo Ren isn't a Sith Lord. He's not.

Kylo is clearly still at the apprentice level when Snoke says "it's time to complete his training."

Having just re-watched The Empire Strikes Back, Luke was a joke as well before he completed his training.

And I haven't seen anyone saying they hate the movie because Kylo was "a Sith lord". Plenty complaining that he was defeated, but narrowing the argument to the single point that he was a Sith Lord is setting up the argument to defeat it.

If avatar had good characters, dialog, pacing, and plot then the complaints that it's just another rehash wouldn't matter much. I'm sure people who don't like the movie feel as I did after seeing avatar.

Indeed. It's like people criticising Avatar for being The Last Samurai - In SPAAAAAAAAAAACE.

And The Last Samurai for being Dances With Wolves - In JAPAAAAAAAAAAAN.

All three are great films, so what if they share plot elements?

Anyone else feel Kylo Ren was a metaphorical interpretation of the Star Wars fandom?

His childish tantrums when he didn't get his own way are reminiscent of Star Wars fanatics and how they react to the movies, series, books and games. As well as how they interact with each other.

I can imagine some who comment on the forums smashing their computers in a fit of rage.

Yes, it's funny, isn't it? There will be at least four more Star Wars films the next years, so everyone will get their fix of Star Wars. Maybe there has never been a better time to be a fan. But some are incredibly worried about whether any single film is 'good' or not. Even the prequels, from up to 17 years ago still make fans smash keyboards.

Not trying to call anyone 'no true Scotsman' or anything, but...why bother with a film series that would cause one so much frustration? It looks like there is a significant or at least vocal group that has been severely disappointed by four Star Wars films in a row, over that 17 year period. Riiiiiiiiiight.

Use the door, Luke!

Anyone else feel Kylo Ren was a metaphorical interpretation of the Star Wars fandom?

His childish tantrums when he didn't get his own way are reminiscent of Star Wars fanatics and how they react to the movies, series, books and games. As well as how they interact with each other.

I can imagine some who comment on the forums smashing their computers in a fit of rage.

Yes, it's funny, isn't it? There will be at least four more Star Wars films the next years, so everyone will get their fix of Star Wars. Maybe there has never been a better time to be a fan. But some are incredibly worried about whether any single film is 'good' or not. Even the prequels, from up to 17 years ago still make fans smash keyboards.

Not trying to call anyone 'no true Scotsman' or anything, but...why bother with a film series that would cause one so much frustration? It looks like there is a significant or at least vocal group that has been severely disappointed by four Star Wars films in a row, over that 17 year period. Riiiiiiiiiight.

Use the door, Luke!

That's a tempting argument, but it assumes people are making logical decisions, when emotions rule. (In this analogy, does that mean the desire stop watching Star Wars films is analogous with Kylo's feeling the pull of the light side?)

Anyone else feel Kylo Ren was a metaphorical interpretation of the Star Wars fandom?

His childish tantrums when he didn't get his own way are reminiscent of Star Wars fanatics and how they react to the movies, series, books and games. As well as how they interact with each other.

I can imagine some who comment on the forums smashing their computers in a fit of rage.

Yes, it's funny, isn't it? There will be at least four more Star Wars films the next years, so everyone will get their fix of Star Wars. Maybe there has never been a better time to be a fan. But some are incredibly worried about whether any single film is 'good' or not. Even the prequels, from up to 17 years ago still make fans smash keyboards.

Not trying to call anyone 'no true Scotsman' or anything, but...why bother with a film series that would cause one so much frustration? It looks like there is a significant or at least vocal group that has been severely disappointed by four Star Wars films in a row, over that 17 year period. Riiiiiiiiiight.

Use the door, Luke!

I was laughing when Kylo went ballistic on the consoles, imagining the cringing officer as JJ Abram's and Kylo as a "true fan of Star Wars".

It's taken me a year to register, and I've commented little since, because I feel like those stormtroopers who wisely turned around and walked away during Kylo's other tantrum.

Do you think angry Kylo is going to become a meme, like Hitler in the bunker?

He'd need to do it with his helmet on - does he? I can't remember if her has his helmet off for all his melting consoles scenes.

Edit: Obviously I'm envisaging people dubbing a rant over the scene, not using subtitles

If avatar had good characters, dialog, pacing, and plot then the complaints that it's just another rehash wouldn't matter much. I'm sure people who don't like the movie feel as I did after seeing avatar.

Indeed. It's like people criticising Avatar for being The Last Samurai - In SPAAAAAAAAAAACE.

And The Last Samurai for being Dances With Wolves - In JAPAAAAAAAAAAAN.

All three are great films, so what if they share plot elements?

Avatar, a great movie....I don't follow. You are talking about James Cameron's Avatar, right?

And I always thought Avatar and Disney's Pocahontas was a better analogy since they were both animated.

If avatar had good characters, dialog, pacing, and plot then the complaints that it's just another rehash wouldn't matter much. I'm sure people who don't like the movie feel as I did after seeing avatar.

Indeed. It's like people criticising Avatar for being The Last Samurai - In SPAAAAAAAAAAACE.

And The Last Samurai for being Dances With Wolves - In JAPAAAAAAAAAAAN.

All three are great films, so what if they share plot elements?

Avatar, a great movie....I don't follow. You are talking about James Cameron's Avatar, right?

And I always thought Avatar and Disney's Pocahontas was a better analogy since they were both animated.

Avatar, a great movie....I don't follow. You are talking about James Cameron's Avatar, right?

It has semi-naked blue aliens. Riding dinosaurs. IN 3D. What's not to like?

edit: (well, apart from the fact that they beat the Colonial Marines from Aliens, that is).

edit 2: Man, it was hopelessly derivative, wasn't it?

Do you think angry Kylo is going to become a meme, like Hitler in the bunker?

I'm also hoping that Health Goth Darth Vader(HGDV) catches on.

Anyone else feel Kylo Ren was a metaphorical interpretation of the Star Wars fandom?

His childish tantrums when he didn't get his own way are reminiscent of Star Wars fanatics and how they react to the movies, series, books and games. As well as how they interact with each other.

I can imagine some who comment on the forums smashing their computers in a fit of rage.

Yes, it's funny, isn't it? There will be at least four more Star Wars films the next years, so everyone will get their fix of Star Wars. Maybe there has never been a better time to be a fan. But some are incredibly worried about whether any single film is 'good' or not. Even the prequels, from up to 17 years ago still make fans smash keyboards.

Not trying to call anyone 'no true Scotsman' or anything, but...why bother with a film series that would cause one so much frustration? It looks like there is a significant or at least vocal group that has been severely disappointed by four Star Wars films in a row, over that 17 year period. Riiiiiiiiiight.

Use the door, Luke!

That's a tempting argument, but it assumes people are making logical decisions, when emotions rule. (In this analogy, does that mean the desire stop watching Star Wars films is analogous with Kylo's feeling the pull of the light side?)

There was some great lateral thinking by Ren. He clearly had a problem with his parents (maybe his dad in particular), whom he could not get away from, because he still loved them. The solution presented itself. He was now thoroughly evil and had severed any relation with Daddy in one stroke.

Yes, 'stop caring about Star Wars' seems like good advice for some. Renounce your Scottish passport, so to speak.

Believing there is only one correct way to follow something is a symptom of fundamentalism.

If avatar had good characters, dialog, pacing, and plot then the complaints that it's just another rehash wouldn't matter much. I'm sure people who don't like the movie feel as I did after seeing avatar.

Indeed. It's like people criticising Avatar for being The Last Samurai - In SPAAAAAAAAAAACE.

And The Last Samurai for being Dances With Wolves - In JAPAAAAAAAAAAAN.

All three are great films, so what if they share plot elements?

I didn't like avatar because I knew the story and was bored, it had some good effects but those alone didn't make it worth watching.

Like tfa it's an okay film not the master piece everyone raved about.

Ep VII: Decent dialog (I'd have changed several things, but they don't have anything too egregious and most of it is fine), great acting

(I especially appreciate how Adam Driver made you think he was just a terrible actor during the bridge sequence only to reveal that he was actually just playing everyone)

, great characters (I can see some of the criticism for Finn, but in general every single new character had a purpose and was interesting, and the old characters felt aged into to me), great choreography (the lightsaber fights felt like what they were - untrained or poorly trained people relying on instinct, while Kylo Ren's saber style was very reflective of his personality), mediocre plot (a little too on-the-nose as a symmetrical reflection of Ep IV, but they did lampshade it a bit, and I get the feeling that they're setting things up for a big reversal in the next film, which if it goes the way I anticipate will make the plot of this one better in retrospect), decent pacing (the end may have been just a little fast for my taste), and amazing effects (they did a wonderful job of integrating practical and digital effects, and so many things offered subtle clues and hooks for the characters and setting).

All in all, I give it a 3.5 out of 5, which is a solid movie but not the best. Depending on how Ep VIII goes, that may be upgrade to a 4.0. Naturally, taste is entirely subjective, and no movie is for everyone. Many people doubtlessly didn't enjoy it, or at least didn't enjoy it enough to recommend it, but nonetheless I suspect some of the people who actively dislike it are those who are either (a) so burned by the prequels that they won't forgive anything, or (b) those who wanted it to be a 5/5 and since it wasn't are insisting that it's terrible.

My impression after one viewing is this: I liked almost every aspect of the film, I should love the film as a whole, but I didn't - it didn't' move me at all. I was never excited, I wasn't shocked or sad when you-know-what happened (I was relieved - if that scene had ended well it would have been pathetic). However, I'm going to see it at least once more at the pictures, and maybe with the weight of expectation lifted it'll feel different.

On the aspects you discuss:

The dialogue - mostly fine, but some aspects were very out of place. The little jokes, often involving Finn (him and Poe "You need a pilot" "I need a pilot", him and Han "what's this with your face" when Han's looking at Rey) seemed wrong, tacky, un-Star Wars, very Hollywood. Rey's complaining about Finn grabbing her hand should fit in that list too, but I actually liked that, maybe because every time people run onscreen while holding hands I want to shout out how stupid that is and how it'll slow them both down (there were some other jokes I liked too but can't remember).

Acting - yeah, was spot on. I thought Chewy's 'weeeeeell......' face when Han was saying he hadn't let those guys down looked a little off, but apart from that, yeah, perfect.

Characters - what was wrong with Finn? I liked all the good guys, but I thought Ren and Hux lacked intimidation. Ren was reasonably scary before taking his helmet off and again after you-know-what happened, but Hux? He's what, 22? And he's the military chief of the whole First Order? OK...

Choreography - yep, these felt like fights, not dances. Best lightsaber fighting since Jedi, probably the second best over all in fact.

Plot - I honestly didn't care (at least not in a negative way) that they mirrored so much of the plot from New Hope. It was deliberate, it was carefully done, and there characters involved, their motivations, the meaning of what was happening was different.

The pacing - I don't know, perhaps this was off for the whole film and that's why I didn't love it, or perhaps it was fine and there's another reason. However, the end, everything after Starkiller Base went all stary, that was not "a little fast", it was rushed to the point of nonsense. R2 waking up out of the blue like a little robotic deus ex machina, Rey going off on her own as the only person sent to find possibly the most important good guy in the galaxy, crazy. Needed another five minutes to explain these things and stop it feeling so incredibly rushed when if anything the urgency has decreased.

I think the general criticism of TFA can be summed up in one word:

Rushed

It's almost as if they didn't want to drop or shorten any action scenes, and did that at the expense of scenes that might have put some meat on the bones of the story.

A case in point was Max Von Sydow's character - he shows up - he's clearly got a really important connection with the events leading up to what's going on - but instead of allowing him to fill us in, they kill him off straight away.

Shocking under-use of a top-drawer actor.

In contrast we've got fairly long sequences that were almost completely extraneous to the story.

Like the confrontation with Han and the two smuggler groups (don't get me wrong - it was a good sequence - it just added next to nothing to the story) - that could have easily been dealt with in 1 or 2 mins of screen time by having the First Order show up (they were still in orbit around the same planet after all - and would have been tracking the Falcon).

Nothing a special extended edition can't fix - but I find it odd that it the cinematic release omits scenes that would have been essential to the story - but keeps scenes that are only worth putting into an extended edition - go figure?!

The prequel butt hurt is stronngggg with some of you.

The prequel butt hurt is stronngggg with some of you.

Where?

The prequel butt hurt is stronngggg with some of you.

What do you mean?

The prequel butt hurt is stronngggg with some of you.

Only mention of the prequels I've seen are butt-hurt Jar Jar fans. Make your own Prequel circle-jerk thread if criticism triggers you.