I think you mean subjectively.

I think you mean subjectively.

No, he means objectively. Kylo isn't a Sith Lord.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

I think you mean subjectively.

If it was subjective there would be no need to correct it.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

Have you seen any evidence that he was skilled with his weapon? Might want to give it a second viewing.

I've seen it three times. Thanks.

Star Wars fans are the toughest fan base around. No matter what movie came out half the fan base would reject it. Am I surprised by the reactions, No. You could have almost written the reviews for this movie from a fans perspective 6 months ago. Star Wars fans unlike any other fan base actually hate Star Wars. They stand in a corner with their arms wrapped around the 'Original Trilogy" denying anything else exists movies wise. We see this even with this game as FFG moved into the EU for ships. How many times did we see a thread about the HWK when it was first revealed about how they wouldn't buy it because it was not in the movies. Lucas lived in this wild fandom of Star Wars and sure he was happy to let it go if nothing else then to get out of the crosshairs of the fans. Star Trek fans are equally as passionate for their franchise. You would never here that fan base talk about Gene Roddenberry as the Tar Wars fans talk about George Lucas. You can almost hear Lucas saying "see I told you" to disney after some of the fan reactions. So for those with their arms wrapped tightly around the "Original Trilogy" they have made more bad movies now then good ones. You have to ask yourself, are you really a Star Wars fan?

The base has been broken for a long, long time.

Kylo is clearly still at the apprentice level when Snoke says "it's time to complete his training."

Having just re-watched The Empire Strikes Back, Luke was a joke as well before he completed his training.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

He was wounded, in several places no less, and she was clearly both naturally gifted and trained (she was remembering her training after Kylo reminded her of it, and she gave herself over to the Force to guide her movements, and even then she was hardly a master swordsman).

Ep VII: Decent dialog (I'd have changed several things, but they don't have anything too egregious and most of it is fine), great acting

(I especially appreciate how Adam Driver made you think he was just a terrible actor during the bridge sequence only to reveal that he was actually just playing everyone)

, great characters (I can see some of the criticism for Finn, but in general every single new character had a purpose and was interesting, and the old characters felt aged into to me), great choreography (the lightsaber fights felt like what they were - untrained or poorly trained people relying on instinct, while Kylo Ren's saber style was very reflective of his personality), mediocre plot (a little too on-the-nose as a symmetrical reflection of Ep IV, but they did lampshade it a bit, and I get the feeling that they're setting things up for a big reversal in the next film, which if it goes the way I anticipate will make the plot of this one better in retrospect), decent pacing (the end may have been just a little fast for my taste), and amazing effects (they did a wonderful job of integrating practical and digital effects, and so many things offered subtle clues and hooks for the characters and setting).

All in all, I give it a 3.5 out of 5, which is a solid movie but not the best. Depending on how Ep VIII goes, that may be upgrade to a 4.0. Naturally, taste is entirely subjective, and no movie is for everyone. Many people doubtlessly didn't enjoy it, or at least didn't enjoy it enough to recommend it, but nonetheless I suspect some of the people who actively dislike it are those who are either (a) so burned by the prequels that they won't forgive anything, or (b) those who wanted it to be a 5/5 and since it wasn't are insisting that it's terrible.

My impression after one viewing is this: I liked almost every aspect of the film, I should love the film as a whole, but I didn't - it didn't' move me at all. I was never excited, I wasn't shocked or sad when you-know-what happened (I was relieved - if that scene had ended well it would have been pathetic). However, I'm going to see it at least once more at the pictures, and maybe with the weight of expectation lifted it'll feel different.

On the aspects you discuss:

The dialogue - mostly fine, but some aspects were very out of place. The little jokes, often involving Finn (him and Poe "You need a pilot" "I need a pilot", him and Han "what's this with your face" when Han's looking at Rey) seemed wrong, tacky, un-Star Wars, very Hollywood. Rey's complaining about Finn grabbing her hand should fit in that list too, but I actually liked that, maybe because every time people run onscreen while holding hands I want to shout out how stupid that is and how it'll slow them both down (there were some other jokes I liked too but can't remember).

Acting - yeah, was spot on. I thought Chewy's 'weeeeeell......' face when Han was saying he hadn't let those guys down looked a little off, but apart from that, yeah, perfect.

Characters - what was wrong with Finn? I liked all the good guys, but I thought Ren and Hux lacked intimidation. Ren was reasonably scary before taking his helmet off and again after you-know-what happened, but Hux? He's what, 22? And he's the military chief of the whole First Order? OK...

Choreography - yep, these felt like fights, not dances. Best lightsaber fighting since Jedi, probably the second best over all in fact.

Plot - I honestly didn't care (at least not in a negative way) that they mirrored so much of the plot from New Hope. It was deliberate, it was carefully done, and there characters involved, their motivations, the meaning of what was happening was different.

The pacing - I don't know, perhaps this was off for the whole film and that's why I didn't love it, or perhaps it was fine and there's another reason. However, the end, everything after Starkiller Base went all stary, that was not "a little fast", it was rushed to the point of nonsense. R2 waking up out of the blue like a little robotic deus ex machina, Rey going off on her own as the only person sent to find possibly the most important good guy in the galaxy, crazy. Needed another five minutes to explain these things and stop it feeling so incredibly rushed when if anything the urgency has decreased.

Star Wars fans are the toughest fan base around. No matter what movie came out half the fan base would reject it. Am I surprised by the reactions, No. You could have almost written the reviews for this movie from a fans perspective 6 months ago. Star Wars fans unlike any other fan base actually hate Star Wars. They stand in a corner with their arms wrapped around the 'Original Trilogy" denying anything else exists movies wise. We see this even with this game as FFG moved into the EU for ships. How many times did we see a thread about the HWK when it was first revealed about how they wouldn't buy it because it was not in the movies. Lucas lived in this wild fandom of Star Wars and sure he was happy to let it go if nothing else then to get out of the crosshairs of the fans. Star Trek fans are equally as passionate for their franchise. You would never here that fan base talk about Gene Roddenberry as the Tar Wars fans talk about George Lucas. You can almost hear Lucas saying "see I told you" to disney after some of the fan reactions. So for those with their arms wrapped tightly around the "Original Trilogy" they have made more bad movies now then good ones. You have to ask yourself, are you really a Star Wars fan?

one could argue that a person who stands blindly and with no critique behind anything might be a fan, but only in "as in fanatic". one could further argue that it's a "3 monkey principle" and belongs more in otherworldy stuff - like religion, politics or economy

praising things which are good..is good. but you also have to have an educated opinion, however that may look like. and it's the same in startrek, too.

how many trekkies do you know that reeeally like voyager and say so? and how many of those justify that with "because it's startrek.. so I LOVE it. blindly"?

critique, both good and bad, is -mandatory- when talking about -anything-. else you're really "just a fanboy", and people look down on them for a reason.

now, IMHO the most/all the forumites fall into the category of "has an educated guess, has a reason for his opinion". and no offense meant, but I think that basically saying "you have to love everything god almighty (lucas or whoever) throws down to us is super, else you're not a fan" is .. belittling, at the least.

let the people who enjoy, enjoy. let those who do not offer a reason and try to understand where they come from. we're all in the same boat here and there really is no point in bickering about what boils down to "different taste".

I've seen it three times. Thanks.

Me too! I love it!

Rey remembered what Maz told her when Ren said 'force', so she close her eyes, focused, and let the Force beat Ren. Remember it can control your actions as well as obey your commands. When you are at peace, you will know the light from the dark, and have a clear view of what must be done. At that moment Ren was beaten. You saw the OT too right?

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

I actually have no problem at all with that scene. She was already accomplished in mêlée combat (though a staff weapon is significantly different from a lightsaber, and whilst they did give her a distinctive style it didn't look to me like the way somebody used to staff fighting would use a lightsaber), and clearly she had a strong connection with the Force, which she realised not when he said something to her, but when he used the force to enter her mind. I know JJ has a habit of messing up in-fiction science/magic (such as making it now possible in Star Trek to teleport between planets making spaceships obsolete), but I think this scene was justified. It's also hinted that she'd had prior training.

Edit: oh yes, and he was wounded.

how many trekkies do you know that reeeally like voyager and say so?

Ones who've only seen Voyager and Enterprise might say that

At the end of the day, it's a movie.

People are allowed to love it or hate it for their own reasons.

Well, sort of yea.

But if they hate it because Rey "beat a Sith Lord" then they are objectively mistaken.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

But he's not saying that. He's saying Kylo Ren isn't a Sith Lord. He's not.

Kylo is clearly still at the apprentice level when Snoke says "it's time to complete his training."

Having just re-watched The Empire Strikes Back, Luke was a joke as well before he completed his training.

The most unbelievable thing about the movie, for me, wasn't the fight between Rey and Ren.

It was that the target practice remote was still on the falcon after 34 years and after three other owners besides Han. Really?!

Current order of "like" from favourite to least favourite:

Empire Strikes Back

Return of the Jedi

The Force Awakens

A New Hope

Star Wars: Rebels

Revenge of the Sith

The Phantom Menace

Attack of the Clones

I saw The Force Awakens on 21st December. Since then I've been trying to decide between it and A New Hope. Still very close between the two.

I've not watched The Clone Wars series. That is why it isn't included.

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

Have you seen any evidence that he was skilled with his weapon? Might want to give it a second viewing.

Ren comes across as an archetypical executioner-type warrior, the dark knight who is extremely skilled. During the course of the film, this image collapses somewhat. A character going against his own archetype to that degree is rare in Star Wars, so this might be what makes some uneasy. Maybe they're disappointed he does not live up to his own image.

I bet it's not even 'his' weapon. Maybe Snoke made it for him.

I fail to see why this also needs it's own thread.

I've seen it three times. Thanks.

Me too! I love it!

Rey remembered what Maz told her when Ren said 'force', so she close her eyes, focused, and let the Force beat Ren. Remember it can control your actions as well as obey your commands. When you are at peace, you will know the light from the dark, and have a clear view of what must be done. At that moment Ren was beaten. You saw the OT too right?

Yes, I own the unedited DVD collection. I actually think the fight was the best saber fight after ROTJ. Which only gets first for the godly score that accompanies it.

Look, I like this movie. I'm just tired of the crowd that rages when people criticise it, and that side of the fan base "no true Scotsman"ing the other side.

Like assuming I've only seen it once. Or asking if I've seen the OT. That's incredible insulting, and diminishing of my opinion.

I fail to see why this also needs it's own thread.

Remember to justify all threads by filling out the required forms in triplicate and submitting them to the Office of Serious Forum Seriousness.

Loved the movie. I'm very critical on things, but the issues didn't bug me with VII. I think a lot of people are imaging problems because they expected a different movie, but the extreme similarities are the only serious problem (IMO)

If avatar had good characters, dialog, pacing, and plot then the complaints that it's just another rehash wouldn't matter much. I'm sure people who don't like the movie feel as I did after seeing avatar.

Back to the watch test: I didn't look at my watch once. I didn't have any food or drink with me for the movie. In fact, it all seemed to be over so fast. I didn't get hung up on any CGI stuff or technology I couldn't make sense of. I just enjoyed the ride. And then I went back for seconds.

The only thing I didn't like was having to watch where and what I say while I impatiently wait for the rest of the world to go see it!

I've seen it three times. Thanks.

Me too! I love it!

Rey remembered what Maz told her when Ren said 'force', so she close her eyes, focused, and let the Force beat Ren. Remember it can control your actions as well as obey your commands. When you are at peace, you will know the light from the dark, and have a clear view of what must be done. At that moment Ren was beaten. You saw the OT too right?

Yes, I own the unedited DVD collection. I actually think the fight was the best saber fight after ROTJ. Which only gets first for the godly score that accompanies it.

Look, I like this movie. I'm just tired of the crowd that rages when people criticise it, and that side of the fan base "no true Scotsman"ing the other side.

Like assuming I've only seen it once. Or asking if I've seen the OT. That's incredible insulting, and diminishing of my opinion.

Well if you aren't insulted then we weren't doing our job!

(And no, none of that was serious. I do agree with being fed up with the silly extremists on here, one side saying TFA was flawless while the other saying its bantha poodoo. Really?)

Okay, just as long as hating it because an inexperienced character, using easily countered stabbing attacks, using a highly dangerous new weapon, who was previously immobilized by the mind alone of her opponent, who suddenly became a badass because her opponent said the word "force" defeated an opponent who was vastly more skilled, who had previously held his opponent immobilized with his mind alone, who was familiar with his weapon, is okay.

This is right on. Kylo had likely been practicing for years, had some training at the hands of luke and was good enough to kill every other trainee. The only excuse he has is that he was wounded, which i would have prefered been more obvious if that was the reason.

Then there is maz' ties everything up chracter. When I start having flashbacks to jeepers creepers in the theatre it is a bad sign!

Wtf with sleeping beauty r2d2? I could go on and on with little nitpicky things. I thought the movie was entertaining overall but with the resources at their disposal why wasn't this the best movie I've ever seen?