Second time running EotE and first time allowing F&D characters. I am planning a mixed game of EotE/AoR with options for players to use F&D if they want to go jedi. I am wondering about the Force Exile and Force Emergent specs from EotE/AoR and how to integrate them. It seems to me players have the following options:

1) Start with and AoR/EotE career, add either (or both?) of the force sensitive universal specs to get at least Force Rating 1 (or even FR2 if they take both?) and then pick up a jedi specialization from F&D either at creation or down the road.

2) Use a F&D career right off the bat, providing FR 1 and take an "outside" career in order to explain their history up to this point. It seems I can also allow them to take one or both of the universal force sensitive specs to bump up their Force Rating.

I guess my biggest concern is that it seems the force sensitive universal specs are cheap ways to pump up your FR early on and I don't know if I should be worried about that. If they are thinking long term it seems there are more efficient ways to get a higher FR so maybe I don't need to worry about this anyway.

I need to do some math to calculate this all out but I guess my main questions would be

A) Does a character from AoR/EotE HAVE to take one of the universal specs before they can take a F&D specialization? If not, does that mean F&D specs automatically add a Force Rating?

B) Can F&D characters take one or both of the universal specs for the FR bump?

You only get a Force Rating from a Universal if you didn't have one already. Just like if you had Exile and then took Emergent, you didn't get a secoind boost, you are still at one. Likewise, if you start as an F&D career, and take Exile or Emergent, you don't get boosted to 2 instantly.*

EDIT: And the F&D Specs don't give a Force Rating, only the Career does. So yes, if you started with an Edge or Age Career, you need to go through Emergent or Exile to get the Force Rating to get an F&D Spec.

EDIT 2: * Barring if they max out the Talent tree to the Force Rating bump.

A) Does a character from AoR/EotE HAVE to take one of the universal specs before they can take a F&D specialization? If not, does that mean F&D specs automatically add a Force Rating?

Yes. F&D specs do not provide a Force Rating for any other careers.

B) Can F&D characters take one or both of the universal specs for the FR bump?

They can take either or both, but they do not get the FR bump. They already have FR1, so there is no further benefit (except for the excellent Talents in those trees).

Basically, all characters start at FR0. To get FR1 you can either have the PC's starting career be an F&D career; or if you start with an AoR or EotE career, you can take one of the universal specs.

In no case does taking the spec bump your FR beyond 1. If you want more than FR1, you have to buy your way to the Force Rating Talent in each spec.

Now, you could have an AoR or EotE career, and take a F&D spec, but you would still have FR0 until you buy the Force Rating Talent in that F&D spec.

Ok, that clears things up for me.

Thanks!

Now, you could have an AoR or EotE career, and take a F&D spec, but you would still have FR0 until you buy the Force Rating Talent in that F&D spec.

I could swear that I read the F&D Specs require a Force Rating to take?

Now, you could have an AoR or EotE career, and take a F&D spec, but you would still have FR0 until you buy the Force Rating Talent in that F&D spec.

I could swear that I read the F&D Specs require a Force Rating to take?

The specs don't require a Force Rating, but the Force Rating talent itself does, as it's a Force talent.

This actually was specifically addressed by Sam Stewart during an O66 podcast, when discussing a listener question. The RAW is that Force Rating talent is useless without already having a Force Rating of 1 or better, as per the rules that you can only use talents designated as Force talents if you have a Force Rating, which itself is called out on page 136 of the FaD core rulebook. And the Force Rating talent itself is flagged as a Force talent, both in the talent trees and in the talent's full description in each of the core rulebooks.

That said, in the same podcast it was said that as a house-rule, the GM could waive the Force Rating requirement for the Force Rating talent, and let a PC acquire a Force Rating that way. It was seen as not being problematic since the Force Rating talent is generally buried at the bottom of each FaD spec that has it.

Ah, my bad, I didn't note that Force Rating was a Force talent (which, of course it is...doh!)

But technically you *can* take the spec...not that I would recommend it since the value is limited...

But technically you *can* take the spec...not that I would recommend it since the value is limited...

Depends on the spec and the intent.

Someone that just wants to bash things can benefit from Shii-Cho Knight's defensive traits, be they using a lightsaber or a melee weapon. A Marauder/Shii-Cho Knight with a vibro-ax can not only deliver wicked punishment but have a pretty strong ability to negate an enemy's attack or even pull off a counter-attack thru Improved Parry. Heck, a Marauder/Aggressor due to all the ranks of Fearsome they can pick up, and an Enforcer/Aggressor perhaps more so.

Protector and Warden have similar overall utility for a non-FS character, offering useful/handy talents that don't require a Force Rating to function.

Don't have the book handy, but there are probably a few others. The player just has to acknowledge that they may have to burn XP on talents they can't use if they want to get into the lower rows of the spec, or just accept that they're only going to be able to delve so far before hitting 'roadblocks' in terms of talents they can't use.

IMO:

The Age and Edge careers are inferior to Force and Destiny ones, don't take them.

IMO:

The Age and Edge careers are inferior to Force and Destiny ones, don't take them.

No they are not inferior.The Careers in Age and Edge are perfectly viable. They just are not force focused. And the Universal force specs actually have one of the fastest routes to force rating with some very solid talents.

IMO:

The Age and Edge careers are inferior to Force and Destiny ones, don't take them.

No they are not inferior.The Careers in Age and Edge are perfectly viable. They just are not force focused. And the Universal force specs actually have one of the fastest routes to force rating with some very solid talents.

Exactly.

I've played in games where the AoR and EotE characters have been just as effective, if not more so, than the FaD characters.

The only place that an AoR/EotE-based character "falls short" is as a Force user. Which makes sense, as neither of those books have Force usage as a primary component; if anything, being a Force user in an AoR or EotE game is more of an afterthought than a core character option.

It's going to be interesting to see what the other F&D Careers get as Capstone Skills (whatever those ones in the career books are called, I keep forgetting the exact name), because that's going to make a big difference on them as well.

IMO:

The Age and Edge careers are inferior to Force and Destiny ones, don't take them.

No they are not inferior.The Careers in Age and Edge are perfectly viable. They just are not force focused. And the Universal force specs actually have one of the fastest routes to force rating with some very solid talents.

And lets not forget the Sense Danger and Touch of Fate talents (remove 2 blacks or add 2 blues to any single check per session). And the fact that you can get talents that just straight up increase your ranged and melee defense by one. Oh and not to mention they are one of the cheapest routes to not only FR +1 but Dedication as well, as well as 2 ranks of Uncanny Reactions/Senses.

So, are they better/worse? That depends on what you're comparing them to and why you are comparing them, Will an Emergent/Exile beat a Makashi Duelist/Ataru Striker at lightsaber combat? No probably not, but would a F&D spec combined with one of these be a bitchin-ass Force User? You bet your sweet kyber crystals they will.

The universal specs (Exile/Emergent and Recruit) are just that, they are meant to be universal so they can be picked up and benefitted from by -anyone-. And honestly, if you're looking for something to shore up any weak spots in your character build and don't want to spend the xp to go out of career, I would highly recommend picking up a Universal spec. They are pretty amazing.

IMO:

The Age and Edge careers are inferior to Force and Destiny ones, don't take them.

I'm sure he meant in the context of creating a Force user.

The Force and Destiny careers are the only way to start with a Force Rating 1.

Force-Sensitive Exile and Force-Sensitive Emergent are universal specializations and you can't start with them. You have to choose another Career and specialization first.

If you already have a Force Rating from a Force and Destiny career, taking Exile or Emergent won't automatically increase your Force Rating.

If all you care about is getting a tree with quick access to the Force Rating talent, you could take a Force and Destiny specialization that has it twice in one tree.

IMO:

The Age and Edge careers are inferior to Force and Destiny ones, don't take them.

I'm sure he meant in the context of creating a Force user.

The Force and Destiny careers are the only way to start with a Force Rating 1.

Force-Sensitive Exile and Force-Sensitive Emergent are universal specializations and you can't start with them. You have to choose another Career and specialization first.

If you already have a Force Rating from a Force and Destiny career, taking Exile or Emergent won't automatically increase your Force Rating.

If all you care about is getting a tree with quick access to the Force Rating talent, you could take a Force and Destiny specialization that has it twice in one tree.

You certainly *can* start as an Emergent or Exile, it just can't be your initial, free, specialization.

You have to spend the 20xp to buy into the specialization out of your initial allotment, and be force sensitive right out of the gate with a Force Rating of 1. I've made a number of characters that way.

Same. It's not always ideal, but if you can't afford to raise a stat in CG and have the 20 XP left, definitely a good way to do it! It's how I made my Force Sensitive Sniper in the Age Beta my group briefly did.

And sometimes just starting as an Emergent or Exile can lend your character some neat traits.

My first character in this system was a Smuggler/Scoundrel/Force Exile, giving him some pretty nifty extra tricks to help out. Sadly, the campaign winded up doing a crash & burn for assorted reasons, so the character never really got a chance to develop in that game. I did rebuild him using Force Emergent for another campaign, and even got so far as to pick up Ataru Striker and start delving into that spec before the campaign ended.

IMO:

The Age and Edge careers are inferior to Force and Destiny ones, don't take them.

No they are not inferior.The Careers in Age and Edge are perfectly viable. They just are not force focused. And the Universal force specs actually have one of the fastest routes to force rating with some very solid talents.

Hey... that was just like, my opinion, man.

Yes, in the context of creating a Force User, for a campaign of Force and Destiny, I like the F&D careers much more. They provide everything we need to create a balanced group of Force users while each fulfilling a party role.

IMO:

The Age and Edge careers are inferior to Force and Destiny ones, don't take them.

No they are not inferior.The Careers in Age and Edge are perfectly viable. They just are not force focused. And the Universal force specs actually have one of the fastest routes to force rating with some very solid talents.

Hey... that was just like, my opinion, man.

Yes, in the context of creating a Force User, for a campaign of Force and Destiny, I like the F&D careers much more. They provide everything we need to create a balanced group of Force users while each fulfilling a party role.

In Daeglan's defense, you didn't exactly provide a lot of context for your response. Both of us read that as a blanket statement that EotE and AoR careers suck in general and should be avoided entirely.

From your follow-up post that doesn't seem to have been the intent, but your initial post on its own certainly suggests that anyone using an EotE/AoR career for their character no matter what style of campaign has made a bad decision by not picking a FaD career.

You do have to have the career to gain the force rating but you can still use the non force talents from them.