Which and mutants are still human to begin from. Not xenos.

We know very well they are. At least, as much as Space Marines are. They come from humanity and even if they are reluctantly tolerated (at least, those useful for humanity), this is only because of those two facts:

-They are not (completeley) unknown creatures that comes from the horrible depths of unknown spaces.

-They have the same basics of a human in their physiology, DNA and such.

-They still, in great part, look like men or close to them.

Maybe they are far from the norm, but they still are closer to men than orks or tyranids.

This is really not nessesary true for warp mutants. Also (as always in space operas) xenos are very humanlike, driven by completly understandable human motives. Except Tyranides and, maybe, old Necrons.

This is really not nessesary true for warp mutants. Also (as always in space operas) xenos are very humanlike, driven by completly understandable human motives. Except Tyranides and, maybe, old Necrons.

Well, that's not true for 40k.

Orks doesn't think nor have human motives

Same for Eldar.

Some for Slaughts.

Same for Tyranids.

Same for Necrons.

Same for Kroots.

Same for Vespyds.

Actually, maybe a little the Necrontyr pre-biotransferance and Tau comes close to mankind, and even them, I'm not sur about that.

Saying that they are humanlike is like saying that dogs are humanlike. That's ethnocentrism (in this case, not a bad once, since it's a game).

Warp mutant can differ and get out of the human-like way of thinking, indeed, same as rad-mutants gene-mutants since they could have genetic mutations that stop them from being human, even if they still we be cousin to mankind, compare to orks or eldars.

Eldar do - they have absolutly human-type arrogance and self-preservation. Also do Orks - they are not very different from any human teen rabble who lives for good fight (and have nothing else in their lives). Not to mention pre-modern nomad tribes who have fight as only worthy doing at all.

You see I mean they have human understandable motivations, not modern European/American motivation (that's about ethnocentrism) . Humans can think different ways. Imperium simply include pre-space feudal knights and transhuman Adepta Mechanicus at once, so it's not ethnocentric.

If you look at it, all races and factions in 40k Represent a human emotion, or are an exaggeration of how we humans in the real world act.

But this is all starting to get a wee bit off topic

The very concept of "Too alien to fathom" is a misnomer! It is often IRL a statement applied to people from another culture and is itself inherently racist. (At least to the current sociology paradigm.) It implies that other cultures are not intelligent enough to understand your "superior" way of thinking. That's b.s.! We have whole books written about how Eldar, Orks and whatever "think" so understanding is not the problem. Where the current social thought goes wrong though is that understanding does not necessarily imply agreement! One may understand that the Tyranids want to eat the universe but that certainly doesn't mean they want them to do it! I personally understand that ISIS and other Jihadi lunatics want to burn the western world to the ground but that doesn't mean I plan to let them do it! Big difference!

Eldar do - they have absolutly human-type arrogance and self-preservation. Also do Orks - they are not very different from any human teen rabble who lives for good fight (and have nothing else in their lives). Not to mention pre-modern nomad tribes who have fight as only worthy doing at all.

You see I mean they have human understandable motivations, not modern European/American motivation (that's about ethnocentrism). Humans can think different ways. Imperium simply include pre-space feudal knights and transhuman Adepta Mechanicus at once, so it's not ethnocentric.

We can recognise or understand the logic principle behind it: Orks are a specie that think war is a game and and is fun, so they tend to go to war when possible. But no, you can't but not at all compare orks to violent adolescents. Violent adolescents have problems, violent adolescents are psychologically disrupted and wouldn't do that if they had help/had been in a normal situation.

An ork is genetically and mentally made for agression and finding fun in battle. The closest you can get to an ork mind, is a violent psychopath that revel in battle...psychopath that are always very hard, if not impossible to understand. And that's the closest.

And yeah, it's ethnocentric at the imperial level. Saying that eldar do this because of this, is basing the fact that we understand what they do based on a human bias. It's imperialocentrist or humanocentrist, if you prefer the words. But eldars aren't thinking like mankind. They aren't humanlike, but not at all.

It's the main concept of 40k. Mankind can't and won't ally with aliens because the majority of them are so unfathomable that you can only understand that they're fuc*'up and they will act fuc*'up. And if they are a specie that doesn't act fuc*up, we can't take the chance, because eldars sometime look like not fuc'up to betray you 2000 years later because they manipulated you on a scale you can't see coming, so better safe than sorry, eliminate other xenos.

That's tragic. There is hypocricy in the imperial rule and it's probable that some species come CLOSE to the way mankind thinks and are treated the same as orks or tyranids, but in the end, the reason the Imperium call them xenos is because they are these: xenos. Strangers. Incomprenhensible.

Yeah, you can understand concepts about them, but you won't be able to relate. They aren't human. And even what they can live similar to human (vengeance for a dead eldar son), they won't live it the same way. They won't have the same compulsion. They won't feel the same tragedies. Because they are not human. They have a different brain, they have different chemical patterns in their brain, they have different cultures, they have different extincts, they have different needs, etc.

Maslow's pyramid is an other good example. These the principle components of what a human need. A dog doesn't need the same things, neither do the ork, the genestealer nor the eldar.

The 40k species are not human like, like a baboon or a tiger aren't humanlike.

The closest you can get to an ork mind, is a violent psychopath that revel in battle...psychopath that are always very hard, if not impossible to understand.

Nope. The closest I can get to an ork mind are savage cultures in Africa or Polinesia. You know, that guys who says "Hamlet was stupid, he should just kill everybody in castle and his problem solved itself". And they are human. It's not so easy to believe when you compare black African savage and Chinese mandarin of later Qing, but they are both humans. It wasn't so obvious just five hundreds years before, when Pope should seriously debate about "are american Indians humans, do they have a soul, can they be salvated", but today it's solved question. At least as I know it's quite a fact that ***** (black man - you know I used a word that counted as degratory, because sometimes it was said that they are not more close to humans - white mans they mean - as Baboo is), indian, chinese and european are humans, and they were in 14th century.

They have very different cultures. their Maslow's pyramids will be different, their motives, tragedies and compulsions were different, but they ARE humans.

You see, Mankind CAN ally with aliens. They ally with Eldars - in some circumstances. They ally with Orcs - in some circumstances. They ally with Tau - in some circumstances. They even happens to ally with Necrons, when concept of Triarch came. But Mankind don't ally with aliens, because they want to stay one and only species in Galaxy. It's religion, not rational. It's the same question why Jews killed every one Canaanite, including male children and non-virgins (and **** virgins) - because Jew God says it. And, you know, both Jews and Canaanites was humans.

As I see (you use Maslow, right?) when you speaking "hey, they are not humans", you mean "hey, they are not modern, 21st century, middle/lower high class European/American white humans". Common human in Moscow (or in London, or in New YorK) can't really understand motives of shahid who explode himself on the central square. They says "ah, he is a psychopath, no normal man can do it!", but their holy book (Bible) teachs us about a man who did exactly like that. Common human in New York, liberal and enlightened, just couldn't understands motives of Soviet war leaders who allow NKVD to shoot them without any objections. It's cultural, not physiological.

Yes, Eldar physiology is very, very different from human. But by classical space opera paradox they behave themselves just as they were the same, differences are not bigger than between ancient Jew and modern liberal social sciences professor of Chicago University.

This reminds me I did have an idea for a DH2 game where the players get called into a newly discovered planet to investigate the primitive Xenos found there, leaving the group wondering why they have been called in at all and the Xenos not simply exterminated.

When they arrive after some investigation and talking to baffled leaders of the expedition there they discover that a Rogue Trader landed here in old times and, as part of a side bet with his seneschal that he couldn't, decided to convert this new species to the worship of the Emperor.

He actually proved quite successful appearing as an already godlike messenger to the primitive creatures, however once the scope for profit and adventure diminished he moved on to other conquests leaving a race of fanatically loyal Emperor worshipping Xenos behind.

It was to be up to the players to decide if the species should be destroyed off hand or have their fanaticism and belief in the superiority of humans and their one God (seeing humans pretty much as angels of the Emperor) exploited as either effective slave labour or cannon fodder to be used in campaigns against other enemies of humanity. And if they did persue this path what difficulties they may encounter in using Xenos in an intolerant Imperium.

They have very different cultures. their Maslow's pyramids will be different, their motives, tragedies and compulsions were different, but they ARE humans.

No.

They still have the same needs, otherwise they'll weaken and die. Otherwise you don't know maslows' pyramid.

Nope. The closest I can get to an ork mind are savage cultures in Africa or Polinesia. You know, that guys who says "Hamlet was stupid, he should just kill everybody in castle and his problem solved itself"

Wow...very racist of you. You consider these people to be stupid, caring only for battle, thinking that killing is fun and needing it to not get bored and not being able to solve problem other ways?

The closest that comes to an ork, is not a human being. Not at all, or at least, a total psychopath. You can't compare warrior-like cultures to the ork specie, unless you know nothing about both.

You see, Mankind CAN ally with aliens. They ally with Eldars - in some circumstances.

Yeah. Not because I can have a dog mean that I think like a dog.

Common human in New York, liberal and enlightened, just couldn't understands motives of Soviet war leaders who allow NKVD to shoot them without any objections. It's cultural, not physiological.

Because they were told exactly the same cr*p as you said about polynesian and such. These soviet leaders were described as not who they were, as much as Barack Obama isn't described as who he is nor is Putin. Everything comes down to propaganda. But in the end, these men have human brains. Not dog's. Not baboon's. Not zebra's.

They can be understood in human principles. Not animals.

Eldar have eldar's brain and orks, ork brain's.

Thinking otherwise is making anthropomorphism, which is a **** stupid mistake.

As I see (you use Maslow, right?) when you speaking "hey, they are not humans", you mean "hey, they are not modern, 21st century, middle/lower high class European/American white humans

No. I mean they are no human period.

From our ancestors 10 000 years ago to medieval knights to samuraï to spartan, to farmers in india to slaves in south-america to criminal masterminds to waffen SS membres to italian black shirt to KGP operatives to roman legionnairies to vikings and to many things that if you just got a little intel about humanity's basics, you would see there is **** way many stuff that always come back.

That you won't get with aliens....because they are not human.

They can be better than human, they can be wilder than human. They can be close to human, and some could even be like human. But they aren't human. And thinking they are is:

-Either a contradictory perception of 40k universe (but you can create your own headcanon as you see fit, like everyone).

-Either the most terrible mistakes in comprehending other species (be it animals or aliens when it will come to it) of anthropomorphism.

But by classical space opera paradox they behave themselves just as they were the same, differences are not bigger than between ancient Jew and modern liberal social sciences professor of Chicago University.

Well, no 40k sources told me and presetend the eldars as behaving exactly like humanity.

They were presetend as having a language so complexe, with symbolism and ideas so strange to humanity that to master it to a human is nearly impossible. They were said to have such a complex mind that they acted in way impossible to fathom for normal minds and saw with a perspective that normal mind can't perceive, except rare gifted few, and even then, they had a simplistic perception of it.

No, eldar doesn't act like humanity.

Ork even less.

It's not because they have leadership (dogs too, you know), that they have ambitions and that they have the ability to speak, learn and think, that they act like humanity. Otherwise, you just look and the superficial and not at what makes the eldar what they are. In the end, you just analyse in an egocentric way.

He actually proved quite successful appearing as an already godlike messenger to the primitive creatures, however once the scope for profit and adventure diminished he moved on to other conquests leaving a race of fanatically loyal Emperor worshipping Xenos behind.

Well...yeah, because they were converted not to Imperial Faith (which is already a lie) but to a lie about the lie, because Imperial Faith speaks of the destruction of non human creatures.

They still have the same needs, otherwise they'll weaken and die. Otherwise you don't know maslows' pyramid.

These soviet leaders were described as not who they were, as much as Barack Obama isn't described as who he is nor is Putin.

Sorry, I don't understand you here.

There is a historical fact. No matter who soviet leaders was, in 1930s there was Great Army Purge, when soviet secret police - NKVD - just destroyed all but handful top military rulers of Soviet Union. Soviet war leaders were content about it and simply allowed it, not any try to use their military power.

Why? Nobody knew. It's not so easy question even today, what was their psycology, why don't even one of them use their loyal forces to their defence. It's not about who they were, it's about what happened.

Barack Obama have 2009 Noble Peace Prize. No matter how he is descripted, what propaganda about him is - he just have that prize.

That you won't get with aliens....because they are not human.

Physiological needs are lowest level, it's need for eat, sleep, and other self-preservation needs (and this kind of needs are the same for human and eldar I should notice - eldars eat, they need for shelter, they sleep). But top levels - need for psychological safety, need for love, need for self-esteem, need for self-actualisation - are not physiological. And you know there are people who just don't fit Maslow's pyramid. There was Janne d'Arc, who definitly put top levels first. There are shahids who are doing the same. Maslow's pyramid, the very point of that was "people solve their needs in the order Maslow described" just don't work.

Orks doesn't need shelter. They doesn't need love.

As I said. Orks come close to what here we would call sociopath and psychopath. Yeah, there can be human (such as your example, an example that is a rarity, not a common thing) that comes close to these, but these are exceptions. Exceptions that are actually not very human-like.

The very reason we see these people as being so special is that: they are special. They are far from the common men. They are far from what a human can achieve normally. And even then, your ultra barbarian beast won't be like an ork. Won't be an ork, won't think like an ork.

And yes, they always fight, their fathers and fathers of their fathers fighted. And it's fun. It's very satisfactory when you strike your enemy by axe and feels like his life flow away. That cultures belive that if you kill your enemy his life force going to you (and even better if you drink his blood and eat his liver). And that is, I'm afraid, physiological - human beings get their fun by harrasing weak, killing prey, fighting. It have it's own physiological mechanisms (adrenalin have the main role, but not only), and proved by experiments on very european being, physically normal - look to Zimbargo experiments. You need cultural blocks to prevent such habits.

Thinking that this is the reason and the explications of such complicated socio-economi context is over-simplification. It's like saying that young today play playstation just for fun. There are so many other facets that you elude in your arguments.

I'll stop here since you have fun taking back my arguments, saying something else with them for it to fit your point of view, and we'll start back forever.

There is a historical fact. No matter who soviet leaders was, in 1930s there was Great Army Purge, when soviet secret police - NKVD - just destroyed all but handful top military rulers of Soviet Union. Soviet war leaders were content about it and simply allowed it, not any try to use their military power.

Why? Nobody knew. It's not so easy question even today, what was their psycology, why don't even one of them use their loyal forces to their defence. It's not about who they were, it's about what happened.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

My call was: we don't know for sure how where those political/military leaders. We have exagerated visions of them done by propaganda and such. But in the end, like the majority of people on Earth, I'm sure that if we exchange role for Obama and Putin, the results would be the same or close to it. Because there are no big differences between both. Context makes much more of what happen than the actual people playing a role in it.

rks are not stupid. Orcs are unsophisticated - and pre-writing (it's a term) cultures are unsophisticated too. People there just don't understand complex relationships used in European or Far East culture (it was tested you know), and they don't want to. And they are caring for battle as the first priority, where low-level crafting and food creating are secondary activities pointed to better combat effeciency. This cultures completes total genocides to the neibourghood as common place.

Main difference is that human can be sophisticated, can find interests in it. Orks won't. They are not like that. You can see them as such extremes that they won't ever get close to what we are. And such extremes are impossible in the human race, simply because we aren't like that.

Are you sure you don't use circular arguement?

No I don't. I use some of your examples before as a basic to continue, I case it wasn't clear enough/ you didn't wanted to understand them.

You (and Eldars) speaks very beatuful words about lesser races who just can't be such complex as higher. Well, I heard it before. You know it's not need to allow blacks to visit university because they have just that degraded ***** physiology and mentally worse that whites. Yes, there are rarest exceptions but even they can take only basics and never can master it. Ah, wait, we dismissed that!

Your arguments are the basis of your fault.

Black, caucasian and Asian and all are HUMAN.

Eldars and Human are Eldars and Human.

As I stated a few times before, yeah, we have common concepts. ****, I can be hungry and a dog too. The dog still not manlike.

And I'm not saying that the dog is inferior, contrary as to what you seem to imply. I'm saying that they are different. They work differently, and they are not alike.

For sure it's stupid to say things about black people not being like us. They are like us, it's a scientific fact that we are of the exact same specie. There is little more difference between any asian/african/whatever person and my own mother to me. This is scientifically proved.

I'm pretty sure that there is more than a few percents of DNA difference between an eldar and human. I'm pretty sure that a man can't have a baby but copulating with a crab. Those are basis for defining what races are.

And if these races are differents, it's because they do not work the same way. Otherwise evolution would have put them on the same way.

And to think that different species work the same way that we are is anthropomorphism. It's a proven mistake again and again and again.

Sorry for double post, my first didn't want to take it all.

Orks doesn't need shelter. They doesn't need love.

My call was: we don't know for sure how where those political/military leaders. We have exagerated visions of them done by propaganda and such. But in the end, like the majority of people on Earth, I'm sure that if we exchange role for Obama and Putin, the results would be the same or close to it. Because there are no big differences between both. Context makes much more of what happen than the actual people playing a role in it.

Mankind has no "need for extremely intensive discipline or die" in their "maslow's pyramid".

If two species can barely communicates, it says along way about their difference.

Yeah. That's exactly why Ancient Greeks puts a line between them and barbarians - even the word "barbaros" came from humans who can't speak Greece but using their "bar-bar-bar" slang.

And yes, barbarians wasn't humans by Greek point of view. You could kill barbarian - and have nothing to regret (if you killed another Greek you needed special rituals to be put into human society).

****, we already have human that can't be understood and can connect with other human because of their special brain function.

EXACTLY. You don't even need to be a savant for this. You just can born in completly another culture - and you will not understand another human. Yes, every xeno is exactly like that.

In the end, go check back 40k's fluff. It is written everywhere that the other species of the galaxy aren't like human. Partly because of proganda, partly because they are different.

So modern teen today, if you ask him, tell you "I play playstation for fun".

But orks won't have it for depression. Won't have it for lack of other partners, won't have it for lack of self confidence. These are concepts orks won't ever know.

Even if it's so (and that's something should be proved) that's just not matter. Orks behave themselves as unsophisticated humans. Yes, maybe they are limited in such role, that's pity for them (or not), but it's complete human-like behaviour.

The reasons why ork fight are deeply different than human.

No human charge a warhound titan because it's cool, unless he is crazy. Orks charge warhound titans because it sounds like a good game. (I've read this in I don't know any book).

So hasn't Eldar. It's just one technique that one Eldar culture (and there is more that one Eldar culture!) use to defend themselves. Another culture, for example, use unification in some artifacts builded in maiden worlds. And there are some Eldars who just ignore this need.

Yes they need, otherwise they would have died. And those eldars that ignore this, are dying if they do not make people suffer extreme of pain, or they die (other way of doing so). Find me a human that work that way. There is none.

Yeah. That's exactly why Ancient Greeks puts a line between them and barbarians - even the word "barbaros" came from humans who can't speak Greece but using their "bar-bar-bar" slang.

And yes, barbarians wasn't humans by Greek point of view. You could kill barbarian - and have nothing to regret (if you killed another Greek you needed special rituals to be put into human society).

I'll repeat myself: Again, those are of the same specie. You mix two things: lack of knowledge and real difference.

Ancient greeks could have learn those languages like we can learn chinese.

Human can't learn eldar.

When WH humans meet same problem they created exactly same technique - hard discipline to soothe temper. It's quite obvious - if you have human-like mind and human-like psychology.

But you don't. The reasons aren't the same. In one it's to obtain psychological/physical results. In the other, it's to net get their soul eaten.

You just can born in completly another culture - and you will not understand another human. Yes, every xeno is exactly like that.

The difference is, there are concept that aren't included in humanity. French isn't pheromone spoken, while some xenos races speak their language in part with pheromone. Try to translate that with your 5 senses. You can't learn that, it's biological, and some concepts are too closely knit to be understood.

Yup. And there is more then once - when some human really put an effort he used to came to accord with orcs, eldars or even Necrons.

****, one Necron came to correspondence with human!

You didn't understand what I mean't.

In 40k, in many codices, it's clearly stated that eldar have language, mind and emotions that can't be understood nor do they exist in the human spectrum, which make both impossible to understand.

How does it works? Name any emotion Eldar can feel and Human can't.

Name any ghost you can see.

If human can't understand them, there aren't word for it.

Go read eldar codexes through the iterations of the game. Go read some background. You'll have the numerous occasions where it states that mankind can't feel nor understand everything of eldar nature...because eldar are not men.

The background of wh40k states this again and again and again. In the end, you can decide that for you the setting is different, but your only examples are limited to human vs human comparison and "some rare situations where there was alliances between both". And as again, men and dogs can both be thirsty and can both be allied, but I get back to your first assumption.

NO, 40k xenos aren't manlike.

They have similarities, like a human can have similarities with a plant. But a plant isn't manlike.

Ork isn't more manlike than a genestealer or a vespyd or necron.

After that, say what you want, 40k as made it a theme of its universe that the xenos are totally inhuman in all ways.

I would say Orks are more man-like than Genestealers and Necrons (the baseline) for sure, actually. I've mentioned this before; Orks literally have sections of their society (Blood Axes, Kommandos, Freebootas) that copy Mankind because the Humies are full of neat tricks. They feel happiness, rage, an urge for 'innovation,' show respect to their 'equals,' etc. There are plenty of differences; Orks have no need to breed and their survival instinct in the face of poor odds is mediocre, on top of the plethora of societal concerns; they're still, to an extent, understandable. Much like people can understand pack dynamics amongst wolves, or the hive structure of ants. It isn't a perfect understanding, but it is there.

The theme by my interpretation isn't that they are inhuman in all ways; it is that they're inhuman when it matters. Otherwise, the whole concept of the Ordos Xenos trying to understand and counteract Xenos would be pointless and they'd never have it.

No human charge a warhound titan because it's cool, unless he is crazy.

We can't check for titans, but humans charge tanks and machine guns positions. Also they tried to charge battleships. With primitive weapons, on canoes.

Results not encouraging, but humans tried.

Yes they need, otherwise they would have died. And those eldars that ignore this, are dying if they do not make people suffer extreme of pain, or they die (other way of doing so). Find me a human that work that way. There is none.

In 40k, in many codices, it's clearly stated that eldar have language, mind and emotions that can't be understood nor do they exist in the human spectrum, which make both impossible to understand.

You clearly do not read my posts, except what pleases you ,so this ends here.

We read them; we just disagree.

Gentlemen , calm you self's.

So they got into an argument over wether if a bunch of made up aliens would worship a made up god.

LOL!