At this point, based purely on the evidence in canon material, it takes more work to dismiss the existence of Imperial Army infantry soldiers than not.

At this point, based purely on the evidence in canon material, it takes more work to dismiss the existence of Imperial Army infantry soldiers than not.

I don't follow. Show me an image of an Imperial Army Trooper (to be clear, I'm speaking of the trooper originated by WEG) that actually comes from a canon source (movies, the Clone Wars series, Rebels). In fact, the image linked a few posts above is from WEG since an image of the Army Trooper* can't be found in an official canon source pre or post-Disney, thus far. It's always been a reach into EU areas to have the WEG Army Trooper exist. You didn't have to do anything to dismiss the Army Trooper* since it didn't exist. WEG had to create it. If you just make a list of every Empire uniformed personnel that's seen on screen, you have everything covered from vehicle crew to elite infantry without the need to shoe horn in a new creation. See Imperial Uniforms in my signature to see what I mean.

*Again, I'm not saying Imperial ground forces, Imperial infantry, an "Army", does not exist. There are obviously Imperial ground combatants and infantry that we can see within the Empire-era on-screen in Ep 4, Ep 5, Ep 6, and Rebels.

So it's just some silly semantic thing that they're not called "Imperial Army troopers " in order to dismiss any connection between the concepts published by WEG and the Imperial Army ground infantry soldiers as depicted in the movies?

If you don't mean Stormtroopers, then I'm not sure what movie you are speaking of.

I give up. My responses are above and in my signature.

ETA - not sure how my quotes below were missed:

Go ahead -- giving up doesn't make the Imperial Army clearly shown in the movies and other established canon material, and detailed in the older RPG products, go away.

E -- How could the Stormtroopers to be BOTH the "elite" forces of the Empire, AND the "rank and file" ground soldiers?

I love the EU/Legends details. The books are so much better then any of the movies, but books usually trump movies in story. Saying that, I like the idea of Stormtroopers being the elite shocktroops of the Empire. I handle this by using the standard Stormtrooper stats as the Army Troopers, and then buff them a bit for the actual Stormtroopers. Really though, it's up to you and your preferences. It's easy to say that the Stormtroopers are the regular troops because that's what we always see in the movies. The movies also referred to them as just a part of the army, and did refer to them as the elite shocktroops. So a case can easily be made either way.

Bottomline, use the Stormies however you like for your game!

These two, and others under their command, for starters.

(Unless we're going to pretend that they're Navy officers, commanding unarmored ground troops and Stormtroopers...)

I didn't want to go into this because I felt like I was nerding too much out on the subject, but since it was brought up.

There is an Imperial Army Officer Corps, guys like these and General Veers are Army Officers. However, they most likely went to an Officer Academy because they were connected (and/or talented enough) to attend and graduate from the Academy. While they were given the some of the same basic military training and conditioning, most of their education involves running a military unit. This would includes military strategy and company-level (and higher_ tactics and well as the management and communications skills to keep a unit in proper order.

The Stormtrooper corps has their organization, but those units in the organization can be assigned to Army garrisons or Navy ships. They're assigned to Army or Navy officers as commanders. This explains why Stormtroopers are often lead by unarmored Officers who're most often complete tools. (see above photo)

I know the First Order isn't quite the same as the Empire, but Phasma, commander of the Stormtroopers, was basically a "Captain". You also had 3 other ranks of Stormtroopers (Black, White, and Red), which could include Section (half a squad) Leaders, Squad (10 troopers) Sergeants, and Platoon (4 Squads) Lieutenants. This sort of implies that anything run at a company level is going to be run out of a command vehicle by a Major or higher.

I will say this, if you really want the existence of Imperial Army non-Stormtrooper Infantry, they're mostly likely going to be ground-based military police, running detention blocks. I just don't see them being used in Stalingrad-like human wave tactics, the Empire likes numbers but the can afford Armored Vehicles.

No one said anything about "human wave tactics", and "unarmored" was only meant relative to the Stormtroopers.

Wait... So because a guy drives a tank (or walker), he's no longer a member of the Army?

...I think you might need to break that news to a whole *bunch* of enlisted folks. They probably aren't even *aware* that they've gone AWOL.

No. There is obviously an Imperial Army - AT-ATs aren't taxi cabs. What you'll find through most of this thread is people arguing over the existence of infantry that aren't stormtroopers. This is the point in contention.

Go ahead -- giving up doesn't make the Imperial Army clearly shown in the movies and other established canon material, and detailed in the older RPG products, go away.

E -- How could the Stormtroopers to be BOTH the "elite" forces of the Empire, AND the "rank and file" ground soldiers?

If you read the whole thread, you'd see this had been discussed in some detail. On the first page, in fact. I'll re-quote from the earlier:

The principle cause of people thinking there must be a regular imperial army is the supposition that if the stormtroopers are elites, the regular ones must be out there. However, the entire drive of modern warfare has been to concentrate resource more in more in technology (jets, ships, missiles, tanks, surveillance) and where infantry remains, to make them more and more of an investment year on year. Air superiority changed warfare irrevocably. How much more so orbital warfare? When you have a Star Destroyer in orbit capable of bombing cities with impunity, there is no need for infantry as a primary force to win a war or battle. Instead, the role of infantry becomes urban warfare, lightning raids, maintaining order on the ground - all things that you want elite forces for, not massed rank and file.

The primary military forces of the Empire are space-based navy and armoured vehicles - flying and otherwise. Imagine the military of a society where a flying vehicle is as cheap and reliable as a ground-based truck in ours; and requires as little infrastructure (fuel, landing areas) too. That's Star Wars technology. We've already moved away from WWII style mass battalions. The US war with Iraq was settled solely by its airforce and navy (the latter mostly to support the airforce). Only when the situation moved to occupying the invaded country or conducting on the ground raids, did it move to infantry having a role (I'm discounting scouts). The US soldier of today costs many times more than the US soldier of WWII era (inflation adjusted) and by any historical standard you care to pick counts as elite soldiery both in cost and in amount of training.(1)

In short, it is entirely reasonable for the Empire to ONLY have elite infantry, and no regular infantry. There is little role for regular infantry in the mass-battle sense in a galaxy of star-destroyers and orbital bombardments. Even when we see them fighting on the ground it is "elite" style scenarios such as establishing a breach into the rebel base on Hoth or ship-boarding manoeuvres in ANH.

Those AT-AT pilots, et al. They may be part of the same imperial army structure as the stormtroopers, but they don't need to be stormtroopers. The way I see it, you have the Imperial Navy and then stormtroopers assigned to them as needed on an operational basis.

I wish FFG hadn't put that reference to a regular Imperial Army into AoR because it's unnecessary and it doesn't fit with what we see on screen. If a regular army existed, we would have seen evidence of it. And all we see are pilots. Now they may be part of an army, but they're not infantry. I see no role for a non-stormtrooper infantry, basically.

Now PLANETS might have their own regular army. That is entirely possible. After all, the political entity is an EMPIRE, not a state. That means there are many subject states within it. These will vary from having their own standing army to relying entirely on the Empire for protection. So regular armies are out there. But I don't think the Empire has one other than the stormtroopers plus vehicles / artillery.

I'm trying to find some cites, but I'm about 90% certain I've read that the Imperial Army with non-Stormtrooper infantry as presented in the WEG sourcebooks is based on material and notes from inside LucasFilm and ILM.

In turn, we've seen a lot of material that first appeared in the WEG sourcebooks appear in canon sources, especially with the Rebels series showing things like the ISB, Inquisitors, the Interdictor prototype, etc.

Complete the circle, and there's very little doubt that there is non-Stormtrooper infantry.

And as you note, AoR has a references to "regular Imperial Army".

As for the speculation regarding the evolving role of infantry, come on... the ONLY place that Star Wars has EVER shown ANY regard for realistic in military development or tactics of any kind is IN some of the RPG products. The space battles just about take places in 2D, everyone's using walker armor, armies run at each other across the open, and the Battle of Hoth features WW1 trench warfare and pilots who fly straight at the only part of the enemy's "scary scary monster armor" that can actually shoot at them...

Meanwhile, if you're going to occupy planets and pacify their populations, so that you can actually exploit resources and industry instead of flattening everything from orbit, you need large invasion, occupation, and garrison forces, far outstripping any realistic application of your "elite forces".

But the canon question is: are stormtroopers the imperial elite? Does any canon source describe them as such? The were described as such in the Legends material but I am not aware of a canon reference to them as elite for the empire.

But the canon question is: are stormtroopers the imperial elite? Does any canon source describe them as such? The were described as such in the Legends material but I am not aware of a canon reference to them as elite for the empire.

Obi Wan seems to think so ( "Only Imperial Storm Troopers are so precise." ) but after watching them throughout the rest of the movies, I think maybe he's an old man confusing them with the Clone troopers of his heyday.

My "head-canon" is that Stormtroopers, in that white skull-motif armor, are a force more about ideology and inspiring fear. They get the best armor, the best weapons, and so on, but for every unit that's a hardcore elite, there are several that are made up of zealots with the right ideology and connections. See, the Tarkin Doctrine and all the Empire's other "weapons of fear".

And that is also another reason why I think there's a regular Imperial army including infantry -- because of the contrast, and the obvious historical parallel.

But the canon question is: are stormtroopers the imperial elite? Does any canon source describe them as such? The were described as such in the Legends material but I am not aware of a canon reference to them as elite for the empire.

Stormtroopers , disparagingly referred to as bucketheads by dissenting citizens, were the elite shock troops in the Imperial Army , placed under the Stormtrooper Corps , the land-based forces of the Galactic Empire .

As per the canon page on wookiepedia.

Now all that being said, you can choose how you play them. They are referred to as the foot soldiers of the Empire in both the recent Ultimate Star Wars and Star Wars Rebels-The Visual Guide books. No reason they can't be both much there is a regular US Army and the US Army Rangers. As I said earlier I do this having two slightly different stat blocks for them.

But the canon question is: are stormtroopers the imperial elite? Does any canon source describe them as such? The were described as such in the Legends material but I am not aware of a canon reference to them as elite for the empire.

Stormtroopers , disparagingly referred to as bucketheads by dissenting citizens, were the elite shock troops in the Imperial Army , placed under the Stormtrooper Corps , the land-based forces of the Galactic Empire .

As per the canon page on wookiepedia.

Wookiepedia is not a canon source.

Now all that being said, you can choose how you play them. They are referred to as the foot soldiers of the Empire in both the recent Ultimate Star Wars and Star Wars Rebels-The Visual Guide books. No reason they can't be both much there is a regular US Army and the US Army Rangers. As I said earlier I do this having two slightly different stat blocks for them.

Yes there can be elite stormtroopers and regular stormtroopers. That is the way I do it.

But the canon question is: are stormtroopers the imperial elite? Does any canon source describe them as such? The were described as such in the Legends material but I am not aware of a canon reference to them as elite for the empire.

Stormtroopers , disparagingly referred to as bucketheads by dissenting citizens, were the elite shock troops in the Imperial Army , placed under the Stormtrooper Corps , the land-based forces of the Galactic Empire .

As per the canon page on wookiepedia.

Wookiepedia is not a canon source.

Wookiepedia references canon sources, however, and specifically divides canon and legends material in most cases.

But the canon question is: are stormtroopers the imperial elite? Does any canon source describe them as such? The were described as such in the Legends material but I am not aware of a canon reference to them as elite for the empire.

Stormtroopers , disparagingly referred to as bucketheads by dissenting citizens, were the elite shock troops in the Imperial Army , placed under the Stormtrooper Corps , the land-based forces of the Galactic Empire .

As per the canon page on wookiepedia.

Wookiepedia is not a canon source.

But it quotes canon sources, thus it is canon...

But the canon question is: are stormtroopers the imperial elite? Does any canon source describe them as such? The were described as such in the Legends material but I am not aware of a canon reference to them as elite for the empire.

Stormtroopers , disparagingly referred to as bucketheads by dissenting citizens, were the elite shock troops in the Imperial Army , placed under the Stormtrooper Corps , the land-based forces of the Galactic Empire .

As per the canon page on wookiepedia.

Wookiepedia is not a canon source.

Wookiepedia references canon sources, however, and specifically divides canon and legends material in most cases.

On the Obi-Wan comment about only stormtroopers being so accurate there are a couple issues here. One, after being in seclusion for 19 years how up is he on the current state of galactic warfare. Two, just because a character says something doesn't mean it is fact. It could be the character's opinion or they can simply be mistaken.

Oh, I agree, that's a distinct possibility regarding Obi Wan's statement -- see my comment above.

Wookiepedia is not a canon source.

What do you consider canon? The Star Wars Databank page ? It also states they are elite.

Wookiepedia is not a canon source.

What do you consider canon? The Star Wars Databank page ? It also states they are elite.

That should be canon but it could be a holdover from the old EU. Not sure.

Pretty sure they redid the entire databank. Everything there should be canon information. All "holdovers" are what they are reinjecting into new canon.

Pretty sure they redid the entire databank. Everything there should be canon information. All "holdovers" are what they are reinjecting into new canon.

That's probably the case. Won't change my game though.

Is there any reference to non-ST infantry in the new Battlefront novel? I wonder if Rogue One will use them.