Well that's my whole problem. Why does mention of the Expanded Universe or stuff that only exists in Legends so often lead to a discussion about canon? It's all Star Wars it should all be a valid subject of discussion on these boards. It just seems to me that some people are hostile to any mention of Legends material and I'm a little sick of having such discussions derailed so I may have reacted a little aggressively.

I'd kind of like to move on and help the OP, but I'm not sure he's still watching this thread.

Well that's my whole problem. Why does mention of the Expanded Universe or stuff that only exists in Legends so often lead to a discussion about canon? It's all Star Wars it should all be a valid subject of discussion on these boards. It just seems to me that some people are hostile to any mention of Legends material and I'm a little sick of having such discussions derailed so I may have reacted a little aggressively.

Okay, well lets move on as I don't think its constructive for either of us. EU vs. Canon is a tinderbox and way beyond the range of just Imperial Army / No Imperial Army. I'm not actually much familiar with the EU - never read any of the books or the comics, so I really only know what others have told me or the odd wookipedia article. I'm not so much hostile to it as just saying it's not something I can talk about. Plus, as we both acknowledge, it's something of a tinderbox to threads which is why my initial response came across as "nope, not interested".

Peace then! And thanks for the bridge building. My apologies also if I reacted over-defensively.

I'd kind of like to move on and help the OP, but I'm not sure he's still watching this thread.

Who knows. I would suggest if they want a model for non stormtrooper forces, whether that be planetary defence forces or some imperial force, they look at the corporate security minions in the book. They're similar to Storm Troopers but not quite as good. I would tone down a stormtrooper minion to be a little lower in wound threshold and / or stats, and give them slightly shoddier equipment... but possibly up their numbers. Make them proper canon-fodder types. That way there'll be more of a noticeable contrast when the PCs run into actual stormtroopers. You can also simply play stormtroopers with better tactics as a GM to represent their better quality and maybe get into the habit of the non-stormtroopers breaking and running once X% of them are downed so that it will be a bigger scare for PCs when the stormtroopers just don't stop fighting!

Hopefully these suggestions are of some use.

I just dont feel... comfortable.. with Stormtroopers being "guards"

Thats just me.

Me either. That's what these guys are for:

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/3/3a/Interrogation_techs.png/revision/latest?cb=20130303154031

Those local militaries and militias from thousands of different worlds can be united under one uniform and rank structure. That would be the Imperial Army. Unlike the Stprmtrooper Corps, they still have local ties.

That would be a good analogue to the National Guard. Local forces that are generally managed by the planet that they are from but the Empire standardizes rank, structure, equipment, and training while also reserving the right to call them up for galactic issues when needed.

Those local militaries and militias from thousands of different worlds can be united under one uniform and rank structure. That would be the Imperial Army. Unlike the Stprmtrooper Corps, they still have local ties.

That would be a good analogue to the National Guard. Local forces that are generally managed by the planet that they are from but the Empire standardizes rank, structure, equipment, and training while also reserving the right to call them up for galactic issues when needed.

Which would, conveniently enough, also be a good way to get them out of the picture when the Empire decides it is time to 'crack down' on the locals.

Three simple steps:

1) Call up the local forces for some 'urgent' problem.

2) While they're away, send in the Imperial Army, Navy, Marines, & Air Force as needed to do the job.

3) No worries about local troops deciding that they aren't cool with blasting their own neighbors and friends, and the actual Imperial troops have been prepped with the official story (rebel traitors, baby killers, Jedi sympathizers, and the whole Group W bench), and has no reason to doubt it going in.

To me the Imperial Army makes sense. It would be used in places where the Empire doesn't expect much trouble or resistance. As such the use of the Imperial Army in a game can help send a message to the PC's about the value to the Empire they world they are on. A backwater planet in the Outer Rims likely has Imperial Army troops as guards since it's of no importance. A backwater planet in the Outer Rims that has a contingent of Stormtroopers serving as guards may in fact be hiding something worth finding out about.

Guys not to be offensive, but I looked through this thread and we start to repeat ourselves. We're like a broken record...

To me the Imperial Army makes sense. It would be used in places where the Empire doesn't expect much trouble or resistance. As such the use of the Imperial Army in a game can help send a message to the PC's about the value to the Empire they world they are on. A backwater planet in the Outer Rims likely has Imperial Army troops as guards since it's of no importance. A backwater planet in the Outer Rims that has a contingent of Stormtroopers serving as guards may in fact be hiding something worth finding out about.

I think most of us on the counter side would completely agree we don't want Stormtroopers serving on a planet of no importance. I think few, if any of us, are arguing for such. The details of what we prefer are important.

I would place local security troops at locations that are of no Imperial importance or which are large enough to have their own defensive forces (which as I stated before could range from local paid thugs to an actual defensive military force). IF there is something of Imperial importance, you might find some black-clad Imperial security guards keeping an eye on things. Only if there is an incident or something very important to the Empire would the white clad more-elite troopers show up (chasing a droid containing Imperial secrets, guarding a shield generator for an Imperial installation, helping an Imperial agent chase down a Rebel agent, etc).

You can still have the Imperial "Army" exist, in a sense, without being forced to use the WEG Imperial Army Trooper that we never seen on screen.

Err... Those blackclad "Guards" you mention are canonically called "Fleet Troopers". They are basically something like Marines back in Nelsons Navy.

In my SW, those local troops would never remain operational as independent forces under the Empire. That is why the Imperial Army exists - to exert total control over the vast array of militias that existed prior to the Clone Wars. The Empire would probably try to deploy them away from their homeworlds to reduce homesteading behavior.

The Mouse regards Rebels as canon, and it features the Imperial Army regulars modeled closely on the EU Imperial Army that featured heavily in the WEG d6 RPG products. So, at least in canon, there is an Imperial Army that's not just Stormtroopers.

Much like the real-life mid-20th century armed organization they seem to invoke in name and in menace, the Stormtroopers appear to be a mix of hardened combat troops, and ideological "terror" troops. The white armor with the skull motif makes for better intimidation than it does combat armor -- see any outdoor environment other than Hoth...

Recall that the Tarkin Doctrine (which is hinted at in various non-EU sources) called for rule through the fear of force, rather than direct force. The rank-and-file Stormtroopers we see (pushing people around and barely able to shoot a barn from the inside) fit right into that, along with the goofy AT-AT, the Deathstar, etc.

The way the entire thing makes sense to me (that is, "head-canon") is that much of the Imperial military we see is the dedicated core of the new Tarkin Doctrine "rule through fear" forces -- giant walkers that are great at scaring rebels and cowing civilians, but would be wrecked by equivalent forces fielding more conventional "repulsortanks"; hordes of ideologues in white skull-faced armor; giant impractical space weapons for blowing up entire planets; etc.

Of course, this is what happens when you start rationally analyzing melodramatic high-fantasy space-opera.

Err... Those blackclad "Guards" you mention are canonically called "Fleet Troopers". They are basically something like Marines back in Nelsons Navy.

Source? When I google "Star Wars Fleet Trooper" I'm seeing lots of pictures of Alderaanian/Rebel troopers.

Back in 1977 they were first called "Death Star Troopers" because that's where they were seen. Then they were seen in ESB on Star Destroyers. Then in RotJ at a surface facility and a Death Star? WEG called them, "Navy Troopers". I don't recall them being canonically "Fleet Troopers".

And, I actually agree they ride around with the Imperial fleet since they are a part of the Imperial military. They are guards upon the ships and installations of the Imperial military. They can also be found at such places as starports or other facilities which the Empire wants guarded when local forces are not present or have questionable loyalties.

At the Starwars.com Databank (which includes Rebels) they are still called Death Star Troopers and their is no mention of Army Troopers anywhere. Their name and description is still strange though since they are also seen several times on Star Destroyers during ESB when there was no Death Star even in existence. "Navy Trooper" or "Fleet Trooper" would make more sense.

Call them Fleet Troopers, Navy Troopers, Death Star Troopers, Security Troopers, whatever you wish, they are still just guards when compared to the Stormtrooper shock troops. Their existence doesn't really give evidence towards either side of the argument, unless you consider they are seen several times and Army Troopers aren't.

In TFA we see future versions of the Stormtrooper and the Navy/Fleet/DeathStar trooper. Again, we fail to see anything resembling an Army Trooper.

IMHO of course - call them and use them how you wish!

Imperial Army

Eh sorry, y bad. I just translated from german again. Yes Navy Trooper was the name I meant.

The idea of the "Imperial Army" bugged me for a while, until I realized something:

Where does it say that an army has to have infantry?

You have Stormtroopers, which are basically Space Marines. Both in the "Marines in Space" and "Elite Armored Shock Infantry loyal to the Emperor" sense of the term. You need a strike team to board a ship or take a fortification you call the Stormtroopers.

Long Range Recon teams would be the purview of Imperial Special Forces. You need to send a squad behind enemy lines for a long time, that would be a Special Forces job. (Although it's very likely Special Forces would recruit from the Stormtrooper corps)

At this point I'd classify "Scout Troopers" as Stormtroopers with specialized survival and stealth training. They're more specialized than your standard Stormtrooper, but not quite as the same as Special Forces. Although they're main skill seems to be "Drive Speeder bikes into Trees".

What you have left is basically the Mechanized Army Units of the Empire. Think of all of the Vehicles bigger than a AT-RT . Walkers, Artillery, Tanks, and Ground Transports that require a crew to pilot and a repair crew to maintain. That's the "Imperial Army". Add in things like Combat Medics and Engineers, and that even Stormtrooper take orders from Imperial Army officers assigned to them.

That's my justification of how the Imperial Army exists seemingly without infantry. In most Military Sci-Fi, the emphasis is usually given to the Navy, since they control the highest ground possible.

I agree with what Raithnor said above except for one small thing. I tend to group it all together under the "Imperial Military" when trying to explain my point. When people speak of "Army" or "Navy" I think that is where it gets confusing. When the term "Imperial Army" is used some automatically jump to the Imperial Army Trooper of WEG. You can have Army (infantry, ground combat vehicles) and Navy (capital ships, starfighters, orbital bases) elements all within the larger Imperial military without being forced to include the WEG Army Trooper.

Saying you are for or against the Imperial Army existing really shouldn't have anything to do with whether you are for or against the Army Trooper existing. That's two different arguments. For my campaigns, the Imperial Army can be said to exist, just not the WEG Army Trooper.

I agree with what Raithnor said above except for one small thing. I tend to group it all together under the "Imperial Military" when trying to explain my point. When people speak of "Army" or "Navy" I think that is where it gets confusing. When the term "Imperial Army" is used some automatically jump to the Imperial Army Trooper of WEG. You can have Army (infantry, ground combat vehicles) and Navy (capital ships, starfighters, orbital bases) elements all within the larger Imperial military without being forced to include the WEG Army Trooper.

Saying you are for or against the Imperial Army existing really shouldn't have anything to do with whether you are for or against the Army Trooper existing. That's two different arguments. For my campaigns, the Imperial Army can be said to exist, just not the WEG Army Trooper.

For that reason, I've almost always been talking about whether or not "non-stormtrooper infantry" exist or not. There's certainly an army. But like Raithnor says, it doesn't need to be lots of regular infantry. When you have AT-STs, artillery, air-speeders and orbital superiority, you don't need infantry as the mainstay of your force projection. You just need them for specialist roles like boarding ships, conducting raids, etc.

I agree with what Raithnor said above except for one small thing. I tend to group it all together under the "Imperial Military" when trying to explain my point. When people speak of "Army" or "Navy" I think that is where it gets confusing. When the term "Imperial Army" is used some automatically jump to the Imperial Army Trooper of WEG. You can have Army (infantry, ground combat vehicles) and Navy (capital ships, starfighters, orbital bases) elements all within the larger Imperial military without being forced to include the WEG Army Trooper.

Saying you are for or against the Imperial Army existing really shouldn't have anything to do with whether you are for or against the Army Trooper existing. That's two different arguments. For my campaigns, the Imperial Army can be said to exist, just not the WEG Army Trooper.

Imperial Army troopers (very much like those from the WEG products) are shown in Rebels .

One of the main antagonists is an ISB agent.

The prototype of the Interdictor -class cruiser appears in one episode.

There are Inquisitors.

Clearly, someone on the creative team at Rebels has the WEG books in their office.

Imperial Army troopers (very much like those from the WEG products) are shown in Rebels .

One of the main antagonists is an ISB agent.

The prototype of the Interdictor -class cruiser appears in one episode.

There are Inquisitors.

Clearly, someone on the creative team at Rebels has the WEG books in their office.

But Rebels writers from the start said they wanted the Stormtroopers to be the mooks. Even the movies themselves have inserted some EU material into them. Use of some EU things doesn't mean all EU stuff must thus be present.

I watch Rebels . What exactly are you calling Imperial Army Troopers? I don't recall seeing them at all.

Imperial Army troopers (very much like those from the WEG products) are shown in Rebels .

One of the main antagonists is an ISB agent.

The prototype of the Interdictor -class cruiser appears in one episode.

There are Inquisitors.

Clearly, someone on the creative team at Rebels has the WEG books in their office.

But Rebels writers from the start said they wanted the Stormtroopers to be the mooks. Even the movies themselves have inserted some EU material into them. Use of some EU things doesn't mean all EU stuff must thus be present.

I watch Rebels . What exactly are you calling Imperial Army Troopers? I don't recall seeing them at all.

Just as an example, these guys:

Look an awful lot like these guys:

Imperial Army troopers (very much like those from the WEG products) are shown in Rebels .

One of the main antagonists is an ISB agent.

The prototype of the Interdictor -class cruiser appears in one episode.

There are Inquisitors.

Clearly, someone on the creative team at Rebels has the WEG books in their office.

But Rebels writers from the start said they wanted the Stormtroopers to be the mooks. Even the movies themselves have inserted some EU material into them. Use of some EU things doesn't mean all EU stuff must thus be present.

I watch Rebels . What exactly are you calling Imperial Army Troopers? I don't recall seeing them at all.

Just as an example, these guys:

Isn't that one of the cadets? Can you remember what episode or scene those appeared in?

You mean the ATDP driver. It's not an Army Trooper. They are being used as vehicle pilots. And like many things in Rebels, it was based upon old Ralph McQuarrie art. In this case the Snowtrooper:

Wait... So because a guy drives a tank (or walker), he's no longer a member of the Army?

...I think you might need to break that news to a whole *bunch* of enlisted folks. They probably aren't even *aware* that they've gone AWOL.

These two, and others under their command, for starters.

(Unless we're going to pretend that they're Navy officers, commanding unarmored ground troops and Stormtroopers...)

Wait... So because a guy drives a tank (or walker), he's no longer a member of the Army?

Who said that?

Please re-read this:

WEG Army Trooper. As in the AT-ST driver of RotJ and remodeled with a rigid breastplate and dubbed an Army infantryman by WEG. Again, when someone says the Army Trooper doesn't exist for them and has never been seen on screen, we aren't saying no version of the Imperial Army (the entire organization) does not exist. We're saying one specific MOS does not exist since it's covered by others (the black clad and white clad troopers).