A few of you mentioned the idea that the Stormtroopers take on a different and superior dramatic aspect with the knowledge that there are regular troops out there somewhere and the guys in white armor showed up here!

That's good enough for me and I think adds something to the game. Not to mention, modern military trends not withstanding, it makes sense. The Empire spans a galaxy and no doubt has millions of soldiers in its ranks. All of them Stormtroopers? Doesn't sound right to me. I see the various regional forces as mentioned somewhere and then the Imperial regulars assigned to the Empires various interests.

IMHO - The Imperial Army does have some trooper mooks. We see them in the movies several times dressed in black. They are used for basic security whether it's surface installations, shipboard, or on a Death Star. For combat infantry, it's all about the Stormtrooper. My signature has a link on Imperial Uniforms which details my personal opinions.

I was once an Imperial Army Trooper believer, but have been converted by the pro-Stormtrooper-only folks here.

I think those ones in black are either naval security or not meant as infantry (for example, they pilot vehicles or are gunners).

[...] no doubt has millions of soldiers in its ranks. All of them Stormtroopers? Doesn't sound right to me. [...]

But, there's more than a billion of them: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35170829

Seriously, there should be more than a few million, even if they're super elite special forces. Let's say Coruscant (humans only) has the same militarisation as, for example, Germany with about 60,000 active ground forces at 80 million population: That's 510 million army personnel.

Sure, when I said Millions I was assuming lots and lots of millions. (Laugh) but should have been more specific

Those local militaries and militias from thousands of different worlds can be united under one uniform and rank structure. That would be the Imperial Army. Unlike the Stprmtrooper Corps, they still have local ties.

I never have, nor will I ever be, a believer in the imperial army trooper. In my eyes, the standard infantry trooper is the Stormtrooper. The main reason for this: if I run a game, and you have a passing knowledge of Star Wars, and I mention stormtroopers you will know exactly what i refer to. If i have to stop a game to explain the command structure and where the army trooper fits in, ive failed at running star wars. This is space fantasy, we don't need minutiae, just iconic looking bad-guys for the heroes to fight. I play star wars to use stormtroopers. If i want generic sci-fi troops, i can play countless other games. But stormtroopers are so recognizable and part of the setting, that is part of what nakes me want to game in this universe.

I feel that most of us play star wars rpgs because we want to be part of, and in that universe. So why use anything but the most iconic? This is why, outside of the rpg, we see only stormtroopers used in games, comics, novels, fan-films, etc.

Now, If needed i can explain the existtence of solely having stormtroopers, beyond never seeing these frontline combat army troops.

The star wars universe is very big (except when it comes to the films, then everyone knows everyone else) and the vast majority of the galaxy seems uninhabitated. The point? You don't generally have to guard more than the spaceports. The empire doesn't need to have as large of a ground force as we, currently, would think. Except for dealing with shields that can repel any bombardment, such as Hoth, why wouldn't you use those fancy star destroyers and TIE fighters as the first go to assault?

The planets in star wars seem to have vast areas of open, uncivilized areas. I imagine due to the nature of technology. If you have droids to work for you, speeders that travel so fast that you dont have to live in the immediate area of a city, why live so close together? Sure some planets are jam packed, but all in all, there is so much room in the galaxy that you can live in the most remote area and not see someone, unleas you want to. If we look at planets such as Lothal, Tatooine, Ryloth, and coumtless others. There seems to be one or two large, spaceship friendly city and a whole bunch of puny settlements. A huge ground army isn't needed to occupy every settlement. Just the major ones that house goverment or spaceport facilities. Stormtrooper can do this, as we've seen in movies and shows.

So with orbital ships and TIE fighter patrols, we may still need to monitor things. We also have varying models of probe droids. These can report and shenanigans, at which point we deploy our stormtroopers via our extremely fast speeders. No need for troops around every corner.

There is also the idea that much of the imperial army consists of mechanized units. AT-ST's, AT-DP's, AT-AT's, etc. The empire has a staggering amound of mechanized firepower. These are probably what most citizens see as the occupying force. The stormtroopers are there for when you dont want to walk over everything.

Psychological issues: if stormtroopers are promoted as the elite (even if they are the rank and file) citizens that are loyal will feel safer because they are protected by the best of the best. Those that are not loyal will live in feer of the ire of the elite troopers. Most will not realize that stormtroopers are the generic trooper. If people feel complacent or terrified of the stormtroopers and their reputation, why not use that as a psychological deterrent? Something that another trooper may not inspire.

Plus, if you have your keystone cops and geberic looking exactly like your Elite, best of the best, unless your enemies do a lot of intel, they wont know what they may be facing.

Star Wars is less about logical realism, and more about iconic imagey and swashbuckling adventures - at least to me. Stormtroopers are a integral and vibrant part that are immediatly recognizable. This is why I use them, and not the imperial army trooper - a redundant and non-iconic fluff.

Yet we already have a great deal of redundancy if we only want the 'most iconic' examples to be used. Why have other Imperial ships when we have Star Destroyers? Why have the Whiphid when we have Wookiees? Why have the E-wing when we have the X-wing?

I don't see having less iconic appearances as harmful to the setting, but instead they serve to flesh ot out and make it feel more immersive.

Because, when a problem comes along, you must whipid?

It is my belief that the e-wing shouldn't exist. Not just because Dark Empire was horrible, but because the design of the e-wing is especially egregious. That top cannon that separates with the canopy? Dumb.

But, if those things make you happy, then by all means use them. I personally don't see the imperial army trooper as adding anything to flesh out the universe. Only add more questions as to the ineffectiveness of stormtroopers. How bad ARE the imperial army troopers, if the elite troops have such bad aim?

Yet we already have a great deal of redundancy if we only want the 'most iconic' examples to be used. Why have other Imperial ships when we have Star Destroyers? Why have the Whiphid when we have Wookiees? Why have the E-wing when we have the X-wing?

I don't see having less iconic appearances as harmful to the setting, but instead they serve to flesh ot out and make it feel more immersive.

I get those reasons. You can certainly introduce a regular army to add depth / variety without any significant clash with cannon if you wish. The main two points I am making are that there is no good evidence of it in canon and that the oft-touted argument that there must be a regular army because stormtroopers are described as "elite" doesn't hold up. I'm essentially arguing against there being an obligation to include such a thing, rather than that people mustn't if they like it.

That said, if your aim is to add variety and depth, I find that better served personally by adding planetary armies than inventing a whole new and much larger imperial army that is far more numerous than stormtroopers. It fits well with the fact that the Empire is, well, an "Empire" and made of many subject systems rather than being a homogenous government. For a real-world example, the British Empire had its own army (the British army) whilst India which was part of the British Empire, had an "Indian Army" recruited locally. British officers would oversee it, but it was a local army. In Star Wars terms, the British army would be the Empire forces and their infantry would be stormtroopers. The Indian forces would be a planetary force. They could be ordered abroad by the Empire, perhaps. But they are not an "Imperial army" in the normal sense. I like this model because it achieves the two things you talk about - depth and variety - but fits nicely with how an Empire functions politically and emphasizes the variety of the setting. I.e. if the players encounter them it wont be just another branch of the Empire's military, it will be the Toydarian royal dragoons drafted in to shore or defences against a rebel revolt by an empire caught on the hop.

Personal preference, but with reasons.

That's actually a pretty cool way of looking at it but Im still not sold. To me the existence of an Imperial Army beyond the atypical StormTrooper is just logical, like something they should have mentioned and didn't. I guess I always thought the guys in white armor were special, even back in 78.

On the screen we see uniformed defensive forces from planets of the Republic/Empire (Alderaan, Naboo). If Imperial Army Troopers are vast and reserved for local defense, as opposed to roaming Stormtroopers on naval vessels, then their role must be severely limited if planetary defense forces also exist. We see these on screen, yet we don't see the Army Troopers. While you can logically argue for their existence (and by all means do if that is what you prefer) what we see on screen can imho be more easily interpreted as:

Imperial Military: They don't guard every planet, every installation, only respond where needed. The Long Arm of the Empire.

• Naval Assets - Fleets of ships to roam the Empire responding where needed.
• Troops - Combat shock "Stormtroopers" in the best gear. Security troops (black uniforms and helmets) when frontline "elite" troops aren't needed (guarding installations, shipboard security, etc).
• Support - Ground vehicle crews and other support personnel. Some elite, some not.

Local Defense Forces: Individual planets or small territories raise their own forces for defensive purposes. Imperial restrictions apply and they can vary from basic security troops (Naboo, Alderaan), to large military forces (Corellian Defense Force).

Yet we already have a great deal of redundancy if we only want the 'most iconic' examples to be used. Why have other Imperial ships when we have Star Destroyers? Why have the Whiphid when we have Wookiees? Why have the E-wing when we have the X-wing?

I don't see having less iconic appearances as harmful to the setting, but instead they serve to flesh ot out and make it feel more immersive.

I get those reasons. You can certainly introduce a regular army to add depth / variety without any significant clash with cannon if you wish. The main two points I am making are that there is no good evidence of it in canon and that the oft-touted argument that there must be a regular army because stormtroopers are described as "elite" doesn't hold up. I'm essentially arguing against there being an obligation to include such a thing, rather than that people mustn't if they like it.

That said, if your aim is to add variety and depth, I find that better served personally by adding planetary armies than inventing a whole new and much larger imperial army that is far more numerous than stormtroopers. It fits well with the fact that the Empire is, well, an "Empire" and made of many subject systems rather than being a homogenous government. For a real-world example, the British Empire had its own army (the British army) whilst India which was part of the British Empire, had an "Indian Army" recruited locally. British officers would oversee it, but it was a local army. In Star Wars terms, the British army would be the Empire forces and their infantry would be stormtroopers. The Indian forces would be a planetary force. They could be ordered abroad by the Empire, perhaps. But they are not an "Imperial army" in the normal sense. I like this model because it achieves the two things you talk about - depth and variety - but fits nicely with how an Empire functions politically and emphasizes the variety of the setting. I.e. if the players encounter them it wont be just another branch of the Empire's military, it will be the Toydarian royal dragoons drafted in to shore or defences against a rebel revolt by an empire caught on the hop.

Personal preference, but with reasons.

I don't need to invent an Imperial Army- it's been part of Star Wars for about as long as there's been an Expanded Universe.

I really didnt want to get involved with this AGAIN, but here we go.

I have a nice simply solution to this 'issue'

The question is:

Do you think the Empire has a Standing Army that is NOT made up of Stormtroopers?

If you answer Yes: Good for you! Go use them and enjoy!

If you answer No: Good for you! Don't use them!

And if people want to argue 'canon' please look at page 359 of the EotE CRB for a good reason why Canon is not always something this book covers. (And yes, I am aware this book predates that change... personally, I wont be changing that bit of 'canon' )

At my table, its my view of the SW Universe. Does anything else matter?

I don't need to invent an Imperial Army- it's been part of Star Wars for about as long as there's been an Expanded Universe.

Maybe. But at that point it becomes a debate about whether the EU should be included or not. Which can be fine for those that like it, but my post that you respond to is solely debating their existence in canon.

At my table, its my view of the SW Universe. Does anything else matter?

To you? No, nor need it. But for a discussion of whether it exists in canon or not, yes. Again, I don't think anyone is or was arguing you can't run it however you want at your table. In fact, you should. But several of us are arguing that there is no need to introduce a regular infantry for the Empire separate to Storm Troopers. Sometimes people say that there has to be because the Storm Troopers are "elite". In shooting that down, we're actually removing an expectation, not adding one. You could fit a regular infantry in if you wish to. But as Sturn points out, we see evidence of planets' own armies, but not a regular imperial army. It fits neatly to have stormtroopers be the only infantry and any others belong to particular systems.

At my table, its my view of the SW Universe. Does anything else matter?

To you? No, nor need it. But for a discussion of whether it exists in canon or not, yes. Again, I don't think anyone is or was arguing you can't run it however you want at your table. In fact, you should. But several of us are arguing that there is no need to introduce a regular infantry for the Empire separate to Storm Troopers. Sometimes people say that there has to be because the Storm Troopers are "elite". In shooting that down, we're actually removing an expectation, not adding one. You could fit a regular infantry in if you wish to. But as Sturn points out, we see evidence of planets' own armies, but not a regular imperial army. It fits neatly to have stormtroopers be the only infantry and any others belong to particular systems.

*Shrug*

Doesnt matter to me if the Imperial Army is made up of armies absorbed from the armies of worlds it has a strangle hold on, or have been slowly converted over to Imperial Authority in order to maintain an iron grip on their own planets.

I just dont feel... comfortable.. with Stormtroopers being "guards"

Thats just me.

I don't need to invent an Imperial Army- it's been part of Star Wars for about as long as there's been an Expanded Universe.

Maybe. But at that point it becomes a debate about whether the EU should be included or not. Which can be fine for those that like it, but my post that you respond to is solely debating their existence in canon.

At my table, its my view of the SW Universe. Does anything else matter?

To you? No, nor need it. But for a discussion of whether it exists in canon or not, yes. Again, I don't think anyone is or was arguing you can't run it however you want at your table. In fact, you should. But several of us are arguing that there is no need to introduce a regular infantry for the Empire separate to Storm Troopers. Sometimes people say that there has to be because the Storm Troopers are "elite". In shooting that down, we're actually removing an expectation, not adding one. You could fit a regular infantry in if you wish to. But as Sturn points out, we see evidence of planets' own armies, but not a regular imperial army. It fits neatly to have stormtroopers be the only infantry and any others belong to particular systems.

Okay, but these forums are about the roleplaying game, which is not canon. So what's the point of discussing this here? Unless you're trying to convince people not to use it in their games.

At my table, its my view of the SW Universe. Does anything else matter?

To you? No, nor need it. But for a discussion of whether it exists in canon or not, yes. Again, I don't think anyone is or was arguing you can't run it however you want at your table. In fact, you should. But several of us are arguing that there is no need to introduce a regular infantry for the Empire separate to Storm Troopers. Sometimes people say that there has to be because the Storm Troopers are "elite". In shooting that down, we're actually removing an expectation, not adding one. You could fit a regular infantry in if you wish to. But as Sturn points out, we see evidence of planets' own armies, but not a regular imperial army. It fits neatly to have stormtroopers be the only infantry and any others belong to particular systems.

*Shrug*

Doesnt matter to me if the Imperial Army is made up of armies absorbed from the armies of worlds it has a strangle hold on, or have been slowly converted over to Imperial Authority in order to maintain an iron grip on their own planets.

I just dont feel... comfortable.. with Stormtroopers being "guards"

Thats just me.

Oh, I don't generally use them as guards. If it's a military operation or base, then certainly. But in EotE most of the time the PCs are involved in underworld shenanigans, smuggling, et al. In my game they'll usually run up against local security forces or rival criminals. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Stormtroopers to be used for day to day law enforcement - that's the police's job. Though you might find them deployed in areas with a lot of resistance or terrorism. I consider the fact that we see them doing door to door searches for the droids or standing guard on the Death Star evidence of how important those tasks were, not evidence that these troops are used for any and every purpose. I think that's a fairly common way of dealing with their presence in the movies.

I don't need to invent an Imperial Army- it's been part of Star Wars for about as long as there's been an Expanded Universe.

Maybe. But at that point it becomes a debate about whether the EU should be included or not. Which can be fine for those that like it, but my post that you respond to is solely debating their existence in canon.

At my table, its my view of the SW Universe. Does anything else matter?

To you? No, nor need it. But for a discussion of whether it exists in canon or not, yes. Again, I don't think anyone is or was arguing you can't run it however you want at your table. In fact, you should. But several of us are arguing that there is no need to introduce a regular infantry for the Empire separate to Storm Troopers. Sometimes people say that there has to be because the Storm Troopers are "elite". In shooting that down, we're actually removing an expectation, not adding one. You could fit a regular infantry in if you wish to. But as Sturn points out, we see evidence of planets' own armies, but not a regular imperial army. It fits neatly to have stormtroopers be the only infantry and any others belong to particular systems.

Okay, but these forums are about the roleplaying game, which is not canon. So what's the point of discussing this here? Unless you're trying to convince people not to use it in their games.

I'm about as much trying to tell people they can't use it in their games as you are trying to tell them that they must. I'm just arguing about what makes sense and what fits with canon. A lot of people like to stick with canon or at least know what is and isn't part of it. If canon is irrelevant to you, that's fine. But a lot of us use it as our reference point.

What? When did I ever say anybody had to use non-canon stuff? Well as a matter of practicality you kind of have to, because other wise the rulebook is like 90% useless to you. That doesn't mean you can't exclude specific things you don't like, though. But every time the matter of the Imperial Army even comes up the matter of it's canonicity comes up. On some forums I go to this sort of thing has a name: "threadcrapping".

This thread is not about whether or not the Imperial Army is canon or not. So it's kind of rude to bring the subject up, since it doesn't add anything to the discussion. It derails the discussion into something different.

What? When did I ever say anybody had to use non-canon stuff?

At the same time I said people couldn't - i.e. never. That was my point, arguing for a non-stormtrooper infantry in canon or arguing against it, is entirely irrelevant to what people choose to do at their own tables.

Well as a matter of practicality you kind of have to, because other wise the rulebook is like 90% useless to you. That doesn't mean you can't exclude specific things you don't like, though. But every time the matter of the Imperial Army even comes up the matter of it's canonicity comes up. On some forums I go to this sort of thing has a name: "threadcrapping".

I'm pretty sure people can get a huge amount of use out of the rule book even if they stick to just the rules and things we've seen in cannon sources. But why is this relevant to what I said anyway? I've argued two things: that it makes sense for their to not be a regular infantry distinct from stormtroopers; and that there is no good evidence for such a thing in any canon sources. That's all.

You were the one that raised the EU material and said there is such a thing because the EU introduced it. I responded that I was only discussing canon and you told me that because this was an RPG site that it was pointless to discuss canon / non-canon. I disagree. Many of dispense with the EU material and just cherry pick the non-awful parts. In anycase, if someone says explicitly they were referring to canon sources, it's not a counter-argument to that to tell them they have to give equal weight to EU material. You can all you want. But it means nothing to me when I've explicitly said I'm just referring to canon. How am I "threadcrapping" to talk about canon vs. EU when you were the one who raised the issue in the first place?

What? When did I ever say anybody had to use non-canon stuff?

At the same time I said people couldn't - i.e. never. That was my point, arguing for a non-stormtrooper infantry in canon or arguing against it, is entirely irrelevant to what people choose to do at their own tables.

Then why did you bring it up? And why did aldec bring up whether the Imperial Army was canon? How is that relevant to the subject the OP brought up : "the typical Imperial grunts and their equipment?" Why is the subject of canon brought up again and again in threads that have nothing to do with it?

What? When did I ever say anybody had to use non-canon stuff?

At the same time I said people couldn't - i.e. never. That was my point, arguing for a non-stormtrooper infantry in canon or arguing against it, is entirely irrelevant to what people choose to do at their own tables.

Then why did you bring it up? And why did aldec bring up whether the Imperial Army was canon?

You brought it up. You wrote that I was trying to convince them they shouldn't have this at their table. I pointed out I was as much doing that as others arguing in favour of a regular infantry were trying to convince people that they should. I.e. that I wasn't and you were applying a double-standard. It was a direct response to what you said in the part I quoted.

As to what aldec said, I have no idea. Again, I was responding to the part I clearly quoted where you said that this had been part of Star Wars for as long as there was an EU. It was a reply to you. You accused me of "threadcrapping" for talking about EU vs. Canon but my doing so was a direct answer to you making an argument based on the EU. And all that I replied in that instance was that "it then becomes a debate about what is canon". I.e. I tried to head off this turning into an EU vs. Canon debate because that's really just a matter of personal preference whether people include that or not.

But you weren't having that, you insisted that we should be using the EU because this is an RPG site.

In either case, for the third time, it's irrelevant to any argument I have made. Unless you are claiming that there is a non-stormtrooper imperial infantry in canon, then you're not actually contradicting anything I wrote, you're just creating tangents. Which is ironic given that you are so keen to toss around accusations about "threadcrapping".

Why is there an arguement in the first place? Why is it being talked about? That's not what this thread is about in the first place. But sometimes when Legends material is brought up those that don't like Legends make any attempt to discuss it about the fact that it isn't canon. Why do we have to deal with that?

Why is there an arguement in the first place? Why is it being talked about?

I genuinely don't know. I'm only arguing two things - evidence for it in canon and whether it makes sense. When people reply to me about anything else, my responses are basically just one of "I didn't say that", "I'm not arguing that" or "I don't think that contradicts anything I said".

But why bring up the subject at all? I mean I know you personally didn't bring it up, but it seems to me that threads that involve Legends material seem to have a habit of getting derailed into a discussion of the concept of Legends in general. The subject of the Imperial Army seems to be especially prone to this.

But why bring up the subject at all? I mean I know you didn't bring it up, but...

Just responding to a response to me. You quoted my post and said there'd been such an army "for as long as there'd been an EU". I just said 'yes, but that leads into an EU vs. Canon discussion'. Again, I didn't bring it up and am more than happy to drop it. So to rephrase your question to the more accurate "why did you reply on the subject", because I was directly quoted and it was used as a counter-point to something I said.