Ive done a lot of reading lately and the consensus seems to be that the sublight engines in Star Wars are incredibly fast. Without going into a lot of boring calculations here, lets just say that various scenes in the movies (DeathStar clearing Yavin, Falcon in and out of asteroid belts, X wings closing on distant targets) seem to indicate that for the ships in Star Wars, the solar system is their playground. At the speeds they seem to be capable of they could literally use moons and perhaps even other planets as part of their tactics during a fight. (Luke; "Look at him, hes headed for that small moon.")

First of all let me just ask if this is indeed the way most of you GMs and players see it?

Then I want to throw up something that is a little bit of a concern. Evidently they don't use these speeds when actually dogfighting obviously. First of all most of the fighting appears to be at visible range in the movies which at anything close to the thousands of km per second velocities their travel indicates, would be impossible to manage.

So Im guessing they slow to engagement speeds to actually fight, which seems fine except then its an assumption that any ship, even with sublight engines only, can at any point open the throttle and just zoom the hell out of there at interplanetary transit speeds. This kind of automatic disengagement would be pretty prominent in any engagement and sense its not mentioned anywhere, must not be the case.

But then, what gives?

And by the way, Im not one those guys trying to attach real world physics to the game, I get that its Space Fantasy but there should at least be some reason and consistency for how things work. Don't you think?

There isn't reason attached. Stop over thinking it. The speeds. Perception/reaction times. What visible actually amounts to in space. Zero. Zilch. Nada. None of it is based in a shred of fact or reality.

No, don't see it that way. I assume Star Wars spaceships are faster than anything we have but not to the interplanetary speeds you suggest.

The only oddity I can think of that would suggest that from the movies is when Han appears to fly from Hoth to Bespin with no hyperdrive in Empire.

But my thinking about how Star Wars is very coloured by WEG's books.

What gave you the idea?

No, don't see it that way. I assume Star Wars spaceships are faster than anything we have but not to the interplanetary speeds you suggest.

The only oddity I can think of that would suggest that from the movies is when Han appears to fly from Hoth to Bespin with no hyperdrive in Empire.

But my thinking about how Star Wars is very coloured by WEG's books.

What gave you the idea?

That's where WEG came up with the backup hyperdrives to explain how he could get to another system with the primary hyperdrive not working.

No, don't see it that way. I assume Star Wars spaceships are faster than anything we have but not to the interplanetary speeds you suggest.

The only oddity I can think of that would suggest that from the movies is when Han appears to fly from Hoth to Bespin with no hyperdrive in Empire.

But my thinking about how Star Wars is very coloured by WEG's books.

What gave you the idea?

I presumed either:

Hoth was close enough to Bespin to be a few days travel at Sublight (assuming Sublight was that fast)

Or

The Falcons Backup drive meant it was a few days away.

But then, travel times and distances in SW has ALWAYS been compressed in the Films.

If you look at the PT, Palpatine got from Coruscant to Mustafar in what seemed like several hours (after he sensed Anakin was in trouble).

Now, he either sense Anakin was in trouble DURING or JUST AFTER his fight with Obi Wan (Still, not a long trip given his injuries), or he sensed the future, and was on his way (nearly arriving) just as Obi Wan left Mustafar....

I take it as Artistic License, otherwise the Galaxy becomes VERY VERY VERY small, or everyone can travel VERY VERY VEYR fast (as in, traverse the entire galaxy in a few hours), which from an RP POV, becomes very.... dull. (IMO)

First of all, what 2P51 said: this isn't supposed to be realistic in any way, shape or form. The Star Wars universe is about style and coolness, not scientific accuracy.

Second, keep in mind that watching a couple of ships using 10 minutes to close with each other over the vast distances involved in space would make for an extremely boring movie. Same for how hyperspace travel in the movies seems almost instantaneous, while hyperspace travel in the game takes hours and days. Movies have about 2 hours to tell the whole story they're telling; there's no time to waste on long travel times.

I once read a science fiction series called the Lost Fleet, which featured the most realistic space combat I've ever encountered. The fleets would move into formation and spend several hours accelerating towards each other at about 10% of lightspeed. They would flash past each other at such velocities that human beings were not involved in the firing process at any level - only computers were fast enough to get off a shot before the enemy was 10,000 kilometres behind you. And then they'd spend several hours braking down, coming about and accelerating towards each other again for another pass. A space battle could take several days before there was a clear winner. Needless to say, this would make for a fairly boring movie and an incredibly boring roleplaying game.

Ok, I hear where you guys are coming from. So if the player announced they wanted to travel to a barren world in the current system you would must arbitrarily make up a flight time (Interstellar Travel rule in the core book) and let it go. But even as you look at those times (21-72 hours for a flight from the sun to the systems outer limits) you can see just how fast these ships are flying. Given that travel time, they are really, really moving... fast enough to put ships out of range of weaponry in a heartbeat.

Just saying, its going to take a lot of ignoring to get past this one.

Ok, I hear where you guys are coming from. So if the player announced they wanted to travel to a barren world in the current system you would must arbitrarily make up a flight time (Interstellar Travel rule in the core book) and let it go. But even as you look at those times (21-72 hours for a flight from the sun to the systems outer limits) you can see just how fast these ships are flying. Given that travel time, they are really, really moving... fast enough to put ships out of range of weaponry in a heartbeat.

Just saying, its going to take a lot of ignoring to get past this one.

Well just don't think about it. It's a detail that is probably best left alone.

Also it's worth considering that ships purposely slow down in order to attack other ships. And typically in dog fights both sides have an objective that they want to reach that requires them not to fly so fast as to be out of targeting range. And once ships get within targeting range of each other, most can move about the same speed so you can't exactly leave in a heartbeat when the other ship can match your speed. Which is why the game has a whole system set up to represent getting away and what not.

Ok, I hear where you guys are coming from. So if the player announced they wanted to travel to a barren world in the current system you would must arbitrarily make up a flight time (Interstellar Travel rule in the core book) and let it go. But even as you look at those times (21-72 hours for a flight from the sun to the systems outer limits) you can see just how fast these ships are flying. Given that travel time, they are really, really moving... fast enough to put ships out of range of weaponry in a heartbeat.

Just saying, its going to take a lot of ignoring to get past this one.

You essentially have to ignore the laws of physics for more or less most of what we see in Star Wars, so just add it to the list and don't sweat it.

I think this is colored by what we currently know of space travel in the real world. Which isn't really space "travel" at all. You have to remember, when flying a ship sublight in the star wars universe, your engines are ON, ALL THE TIME. Current real world space travel is more an exercise in coasting, as in you set your trajectory, burn the engines to give you initial velocity and then just wait until you have to make a course correction. Star Wars space travel /= RL space travel.

Also, I would imagine the travel times listed are for maximum speed in a straight line. Flying in a straight line in a dog fight is a baaaaaaaad idea. so even if you decide to try to speed off in the middle of a dog-fight, you're going to have to level out and get up to speed, during which time, someone is going to shoot you and you are going to die.

So as was stated at the beginning: Don't overthink it (or at least if you can't -not- overthink it, look for a justification rather than focusing on the problem)

There isn't reason attached. Stop over thinking it. The speeds. Perception/reaction times. What visible actually amounts to in space. Zero. Zilch. Nada. None of it is based in a shred of fact or reality.

I did do the math once... based on some mention of how long it took to reach a moon or something. My conclusions matched 2P51's. That there is repeatable evidence and that makes it a fact.

yeah stop over thinking it. This is space opera. not hard sci fi. And as to the Hoth to Bespin question.
1. look on the map at the 2. They are not far apart. But likely weeks of travel time.
2. Consider the amount of time Luke is with Yoda. quite a bit of training is taking place. I suspect weeks of training time.
3. Boba was able to predict with quite a bit of certainty what Han's destination was. Arrive likely days ahead of time. Notify Vader. Vader is able to arrive get in place and have his ship hidden before Han arrives. It seems like he gets there in no time. I think he got there with a long travel time.

yeah stop over thinking it. This is space opera. not hard sci fi. And as to the Hoth to Bespin question.

1. look on the map at the 2. They are not far apart. But likely weeks of travel time.

2. Consider the amount of time Luke is with Yoda. quite a bit of training is taking place. I suspect weeks of training time.

3. Boba was able to predict with quite a bit of certainty what Han's destination was. Arrive likely days ahead of time. Notify Vader. Vader is able to arrive get in place and have his ship hidden before Han arrives. It seems like he gets there in no time. I think he got there with a long travel time.

I do think this is one thing the Movies did poorly, although there were things mentioned that Might indicate some time had passed, there was no real sense of time that the viewer could grasp.

yeah stop over thinking it. This is space opera. not hard sci fi. And as to the Hoth to Bespin question.

1. look on the map at the 2. They are not far apart. But likely weeks of travel time.

2. Consider the amount of time Luke is with Yoda. quite a bit of training is taking place. I suspect weeks of training time.

3. Boba was able to predict with quite a bit of certainty what Han's destination was. Arrive likely days ahead of time. Notify Vader. Vader is able to arrive get in place and have his ship hidden before Han arrives. It seems like he gets there in no time. I think he got there with a long travel time.

I do think this is one thing the Movies did poorly, although there were things mentioned that Might indicate some time had passed, there was no real sense of time that the viewer could grasp.

As mentioned, its a flaw of limited run time. I agree with most people, and have something two bits to mention

1) Xwings do indeed slow to attack speed when making the attack on the death star,

2) Fly by sensor. That is like the sole purpose of astromechs and astrogation computers. To let them do the math. I actually think Piloting (space) Should be an intelligence skill. Your not really doing anything that a person who is in the worse shape of their life couldnt do. move levers, push buttons, tilt joysticks. Its not Agility that handles piloting, its your **** Brain.

yeah stop over thinking it. This is space opera. not hard sci fi. And as to the Hoth to Bespin question.

1. look on the map at the 2. They are not far apart. But likely weeks of travel time.

2. Consider the amount of time Luke is with Yoda. quite a bit of training is taking place. I suspect weeks of training time.

3. Boba was able to predict with quite a bit of certainty what Han's destination was. Arrive likely days ahead of time. Notify Vader. Vader is able to arrive get in place and have his ship hidden before Han arrives. It seems like he gets there in no time. I think he got there with a long travel time.

I do think this is one thing the Movies did poorly, although there were things mentioned that Might indicate some time had passed, there was no real sense of time that the viewer could grasp.

Most movies don't really tell you time passing in any absolute terms. In some, like The Abyss, it can be inferred from what is shown or said (how much air did he have when he started the dive versus how much he had after diffusing the bomb). Heck, even 24 couldn't get time right and that was a show written on the premise that 1 hour of show time represented 1 hour of the viewer's time, yet they'd cross LA with no problems in less than an episode.

The big problem with most stories is that even the writers just can't grasp how VAST space really is. For example: If you can get to the moon in about 30 minutes, then getting to our sun would take 184 hours or nearly 8 DAYS. It would take nearly 2 YEARS to get to the edge or our solar system (about 90 times the distance we are from our sun). Realize that this is at a given speed of 470,000 MILES PER HOUR which is going on 1000 times faster than you would be traveling while sitting on a transatlantic flight. And it would take nearly 4000 times longer to get to our nearest neighboring star (about 8000 years) at that same speed.

So, various SciFi authors came up with ways to get around and in some cases tried to quantify that speed, but then writers came along and the needs of the plot outweighed any of those guidelines. You can see that in Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate SG1, etc... For example the pilot for SG1 said that it would take a long time for a ship to get to Earth, so we weren't that much of a nuisance for the Goa'uld to take out. But at the end of Season 2 it was a trip that seemed to just be a day or two.

Star Wars EU authors used ideas like microjumps to help deal with getting around inside a star system where a ship would jump into and right back out of hyperspace to cover the "smaller" distances inside a system. Even Abrams and Filoni can't seem to keep things straight.

yeah stop over thinking it. This is space opera. not hard sci fi. And as to the Hoth to Bespin question.

1. look on the map at the 2. They are not far apart. But likely weeks of travel time.

2. Consider the amount of time Luke is with Yoda. quite a bit of training is taking place. I suspect weeks of training time.

3. Boba was able to predict with quite a bit of certainty what Han's destination was. Arrive likely days ahead of time. Notify Vader. Vader is able to arrive get in place and have his ship hidden before Han arrives. It seems like he gets there in no time. I think he got there with a long travel time.

I do think this is one thing the Movies did poorly, although there were things mentioned that Might indicate some time had passed, there was no real sense of time that the viewer could grasp.

As mentioned, its a flaw of limited run time. I agree with most people, and have something two bits to mention

1) Xwings do indeed slow to attack speed when making the attack on the death star,

2) Fly by sensor. That is like the sole purpose of astromechs and astrogation computers. To let them do the math. I actually think Piloting (space) Should be an intelligence skill. Your not really doing anything that a person who is in the worse shape of their life couldnt do. move levers, push buttons, tilt joysticks. Its not Agility that handles piloting, its your **** Brain.

No offense, but regardless of stat (Presence, Agility, Intelligence) it is your brain. In the case of fighters, it is your reflexes and not your intellect that make it work. Your intellect might be useful for things like planning your strategies (Knowledge (Tactics)), but once you're into the furball, it is all about those split second movements that most RPGs represent with Agility that determines your success.

If you want to get an idea of just how vast space is play some Elite: Dangerous.... it takes forever to get places...

If you want to get an idea of just how vast space is play some Elite: Dangerous.... it takes forever to get places...

You mean Space Trucker Simulator?

To be fair, agility is misleading as a stat; if you look into it, everything is about coordination, from being able to hit a target, remain upright or guide a shape flying very quickly through multiple objects. Brawn governs everything athletic, which includes running speed, strength and general endurance.

I mean, just look at it. If they hadn't have named a skill coordination, you could replace agility with the lengthy mocker and it would play out no differently.

Technically, Brawn includes some of What people thing of as Agility and Dexterity, That is to say, Hand to eye coordination. Most Real world Melee Skills include a lot of Hand to Eye Coordination to be effective.

That is what Ranged skills mostly rely upon, Hand to Eye Coordination .... Piloting skills that are not connected directly to the brain also include a lot of Hand to eye Coordination.

If I were had been developing this game and trying to balance it.... To prevent certain skills from becoming overly used and becoming the HAVE all Combat Skills. I would have had them reply on more than one stat, averaging them.

I would have had Melee Rely on Brawn for Damage only, and then had the Skill rely on Agility and Cunning Or Agility and Will, A very few brute force ones I would have made Agility and Brawn.

Ranged weapons and Gunnery I would have made Agility and Cunning Or Agility and Intellect.

I realize many may disagree... But I think Putting all the big eggs in one Pot was part of the problem.

If you want to get an idea of just how vast space is play some Elite: Dangerous.... it takes forever to get places...

You mean Space Trucker Simulator?

It is more than that. But yes hats the one. It really does give a feel for just how big space is.

If you want to get an idea of just how vast space is play some Elite: Dangerous.... it takes forever to get places...

You mean Space Trucker Simulator?

It is more than that. But yes hats the one. It really does give a feel for just how big space is.

It's actually pretty great. I enjoy it, but wish I had a VR headset to wear while playing it.

If you want to get an idea of just how vast space is play some Elite: Dangerous.... it takes forever to get places...

You mean Space Trucker Simulator?

It is more than that. But yes hats the one. It really does give a feel for just how big space is.

It's actually pretty great. I enjoy it, but wish I had a VR headset to wear while playing it.

Ohhhh are you missing out.... DK2 look stunning and soon we will have the consumer and I expect that will actually be much much better. The text is a little hard to read in the DK 2. changing hud color helps significantly. But i look forward to getting the consumer version. As it adds about half again more resolution in each direction...

Dog fighting is also much much easier using the rift too. As you can look up and track your opponants better.

If you want to get an idea of just how vast space is play some Elite: Dangerous.... it takes forever to get places...

You mean Space Trucker Simulator?

It is more than that. But yes hats the one. It really does give a feel for just how big space is.

It's actually pretty great. I enjoy it, but wish I had a VR headset to wear while playing it.

Ohhhh are you missing out.... DK2 look stunning and soon we will have the consumer and I expect that will actually be much much better. The text is a little hard to read in the DK 2. changing hud color helps significantly. But i look forward to getting the consumer version. As it adds about half again more resolution in each direction...

Dog fighting is also much much easier using the rift too. As you can look up and track your opponants better.

I am just woefully under-equipped PC-wise to be playing that game. I don't have a VR set, and I lost the joystick I had in my last move, so I'm playing with mouse and keyboard. So dog-fighting is a mostly insurmountable challenge. But I recognize the potential, so its sitting there.....waiting, waiting for me to properly equip myself to enjoy.

First of all, what 2P51 said: this isn't supposed to be realistic in any way, shape or form. The Star Wars universe is about style and coolness, not scientific accuracy.

Second, keep in mind that watching a couple of ships using 10 minutes to close with each other over the vast distances involved in space would make for an extremely boring movie. Same for how hyperspace travel in the movies seems almost instantaneous, while hyperspace travel in the game takes hours and days. Movies have about 2 hours to tell the whole story they're telling; there's no time to waste on long travel times.

I once read a science fiction series called the Lost Fleet, which featured the most realistic space combat I've ever encountered. The fleets would move into formation and spend several hours accelerating towards each other at about 10% of lightspeed. They would flash past each other at such velocities that human beings were not involved in the firing process at any level - only computers were fast enough to get off a shot before the enemy was 10,000 kilometres behind you. And then they'd spend several hours braking down, coming about and accelerating towards each other again for another pass. A space battle could take several days before there was a clear winner. Needless to say, this would make for a fairly boring movie and an incredibly boring roleplaying game.

That seems sub optimal...why wouldn't someone just seed their wake with a cloud of ball bearings and watch the other fleet get shredded in their rear view? And given that, why would you ever fly past an enemy fleet, why wouldn't you use very fast missiles that you sling out in front of you to deploy a ball bearing shield that shreds the opposing fleet before they get to you, and you merely fly off in another direction so that you don't get shredded by their debris? The only possible quasi "realistic" answer (because no solid matter is going to hold up in a relativistic collision) is that they have force fields but even then I wouldn't consider that realistic. magnetic fields wouldn't help because if they did the ball bearings would be made out of lead so that magnetic fields wouldn't help. Thus "realistic" star ship combat wouldn't take place at relativistic speeds because it would be suicidal. Honestly, realistic starship combat involves stealth drones taking out the enemy from the equivalent of "beyond the horizon" and having your own picket drones to take out the enemies drones that are trying to take you out.