Is defensive ordnance an option which could be an interesting addition to the game (for example to fine-tune ships)? Could be interesting (and fun) using a torpedo or missile slot as kind of modification slot for (very) specific situations. It would increase the value of ships with such kind of ordnance slots.

Examples:

Defensive projectiles (1 pt, torp slot): (getting extra die at range 3, good against TLT and Dash etc)

When a ship is attacking you at range 3 with a secondary weapon, the secondary weapon must follow weapon range rules.

Defensive torpedoes (3 pt, torp slot): small ship only (kind of inferiour autothrusters for ships without boost action (T-65, B-wing, E-wing, etc))

When you are hit by an attack at range 3 and there is exactly 1 uncanceled result, you may cancel this result.

The examples are just examples, so the content is matter of taste and not so important here, the main question is whether torpedo or missile (or even bomb) slots can be used as additional defense against specific situations. I know in general FFG is very thrifty concerning boosting the defense of a ship, but I think it would be intersting to have fine tuning stuff like defensive torpedos etc, mostly only useful for specific situations or threats.

Opinions?

I have thought about something like this before too. An idea that i had is having a missile slot, "flares" upgrade card that you use an attack to remove all target lock tokens from your ship (and possibly friends at range 1) for 1 point.

Mentioning "flares" reminds me of using them back in X-Wing as that short range, non-LOS attack that I sometimes used to finish off a TIE Fighter/Interceptor I didn't quite kill off as it whizzed past me. That of course was in addition to its anti-ordnance use. I see a Flare as a multi-use tool where it could be used as a weak R1 attack that can target out of arc or alternatively as a defensive measure of some sort.

I think there's already defensive upgrades like this.

Countermeasures:

At the start of the Combat phase, you may discard this card to increase your agility value by 1 until the end of the round. Then you may remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship.

Granted this is a large base ship only modification.

I think you would need something like a chaff dispenser. Using a existing missile or torpedo slot to drop chaff (or whatever you want to call it) to reduce the number of attack dice or to remove a certain number of rolled hits.

The problem I have with this is power creep. The next logical step would be a card that counters our counter. An example of this is Starfleet Battles. As they expanded the game they brought ECM, then ECCM and you get the picture. I'm pretty sure that FFG has a fairly detailed outline of how X-Wing is going to progress through each wave and eventually we may see something like this in some future wave. Possibly on large and huge ships. But not right now.

I think there's already defensive upgrades like this.

Countermeasures:

At the start of the Combat phase, you may discard this card to increase your agility value by 1 until the end of the round. Then you may remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship.

Granted this is a large base ship only modification.

If Countermeasures was a point less expensive and not restricted to large base ships, it'd be a great card. Why it has the large base restriction, I have no clue.

I think there's already defensive upgrades like this.

Countermeasures:

At the start of the Combat phase, you may discard this card to increase your agility value by 1 until the end of the round. Then you may remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship.

Granted this is a large base ship only modification.

If Countermeasures was a point less expensive and not restricted to large base ships, it'd be a great card. Why it has the large base restriction, I have no clue.

Balance, probably.

I think there's already defensive upgrades like this.

Countermeasures:

At the start of the Combat phase, you may discard this card to increase your agility value by 1 until the end of the round. Then you may remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship.

Granted this is a large base ship only modification.

If Countermeasures was a point less expensive and not restricted to large base ships, it'd be a great card. Why it has the large base restriction, I have no clue.

Balance, probably.

Considering the way that Super Dash works, I find it odd how cautious they were with CM.

I think they want the inevitable power creep to be as slow as possible. Makes it easier to incrementally boost ships, pilots or abilities that need a little more love to stay playable. They made Tactician a limited card to keep the triple six from becoming bat crap crazy. The X-Wing got the IA for a small push and ordnance got two small tweaks in the form of Failsafe and EM.

Every time FFG brings out an expansion they're playing a very intricate game of rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock. The new ships must be different enough to be attractive enough for us to purchase them and play them but not so different that they upset game balance. Ideally every ship should be able to be a winner. Obviously this doesn't work all the time; the M3-A is a good example. On the whole FFG has done a great job of keeping game balance interesting.

I think some of the players don't understand this delicate dance FFG performs with each new ship. Calls to improve the X-Wing to give it more actions or a better dial is going to turn it into a T-70. It won't be a T-65 any longer. If you take this line of thought to its absurd conclusion, every ship will have the same dial, similar abilities and kit and the only thing that will separate them will be the models. You'll end up playing a mirror match like Battleship or Avalon Hill's Tactics II. That lacks a lot of the fun quotient.

Regarding Dash. I think there's probably something in the pipeline that may blunt or counter him. After watching some of the matches from worlds this year I think the days of the PWT heavies dominating everything has come to an end. The 1/2 points for MOV was a needed tweak.

Yeah but a chaff disappearance that is a one shot card to remove a single Attack Dice is nowhere near the whole Electronic Warfare thing and in and of itself not earth shattering either.

I definitely see what you're saying about them being cautious about cards like CM. Earlier in the game's life there were plenty more cards like it.

But what I'm saying is that they'll be overly cautious about one card, and then other cards/combos they seem to have no qualms with being broken power combos, like Super Dash. Everything since the Phantom has been balanced on two tiers:

1.) This ship is just as broken as the Phantom. Look at all of the pilots for the Aggressor. Each one provides an equally good benefit and none of them are auto includes- except for B which is clearly the best one.

2.) A 3 health ship with an HLC?!?!?!?!!! That has to be expensive!!!!!! But a single Assault Missile could potentially damage 8 ships, you should be grateful it's only 5 points instead of 12!

So some of the stuff coming out will be cautiously balanced and then you'll end up getting some blatantly game breaking power combo in that same wave. So stuff like the M3-A is balanced with the mindset that you describe, and then we'll get something on par with the (pre-nerf)phantom that just dominates. I don't get how someone with that overly cautious mindset creates the Outrider title or ACD.

The problem is of course, is that FFG still has to make ordnance not suck, before there's any reason to actually add counters for them.

That said, Chaff and Flares should both be in the game, as they were both in X-Wing: Alliance.

I'm thinking have Flares be a Missile upgrade, and Chaff be a Bomb upgrade.

I believe it's not only caution, but also the overall tendency that offensive action/measures has to be be stronger than defensive ones in X-Wing. So far you rather get an extra die or remove a die modifier (Focus, TL), if anything, on the def side, but not so much as automatic successes (AT aside, but that really was targeted at the interceptor, a very very fragile ship). On the offensive side we have a few effects that grant auto successes (AC, ATC, Bossk, etc), and several reroll mods making successes more likely. All that makes sure that the game comes to an end, no indef turtleing up.

Is defensive ordnance an option which could be an interesting addition to the game (for example to fine-tune ships)? Could be interesting (and fun) using a torpedo or missile slot as kind of modification slot for (very) specific situations. It would increase the value of ships with such kind of ordnance slots.

Examples:

Defensive projectiles (1 pt, torp slot): (getting extra die at range 3, good against TLT and Dash etc)

When a ship is attacking you at range 3 with a secondary weapon, the secondary weapon must follow weapon range rules.

Defensive torpedoes (3 pt, torp slot): small ship only (kind of inferiour autothrusters for ships without boost action (T-65, B-wing, E-wing, etc))

When you are hit by an attack at range 3 and there is exactly 1 uncanceled result, you may cancel this result.

The examples are just examples, so the content is matter of taste and not so important here, the main question is whether torpedo or missile (or even bomb) slots can be used as additional defense against specific situations. I know in general FFG is very thrifty concerning boosting the defense of a ship, but I think it would be intersting to have fine tuning stuff like defensive torpedos etc, mostly only useful for specific situations or threats.

Opinions?

The problem is that ships that could mostly benefit from this, eg fast fighters with an empty ordnance slot, are already some of the tankiest ships in the game.

The problem is that ships that could mostly benefit from this, eg fast fighters with an empty ordnance slot, are already some of the tankiest ships in the game.

Funny enough, I was just thinking that the Rebel ships which could most use a small defensive bump are the E-Wing and X-Wing- fast fighters with an empty ordnance slot. Give them a 1 or 2 use countermeasure type upgrade and they'd be in a pretty good place.

In retrospect, Countermeasures should probably have been a missile instead of a modification. And not Large Base only. I think it might have seen play on A-Wings and Defenders.

The problem with making them torps or missiles is that you buff stuff that doesn't need buffing, like the Falcon and the Decimator and Corran and Dash. Do we really need Aggressors with more defensive tech? Miranda with the ability to load up 4 of these things because of extra munitions?

I feel like there is a place for things like this, but there should be some opportunity cost associated with it. If Countermeasures costed a point less and wasn't restricted to large bases that'd be fine.

But allowing Poe players to just slap a cheap torp on their T-70 because Poe isn't already invincible would get annoying. I also hope these are discardable.

I definitely see what you're saying about them being cautious about cards like CM. Earlier in the game's life there were plenty more cards like it.

But what I'm saying is that they'll be overly cautious about one card, and then other cards/combos they seem to have no qualms with being broken power combos, like Super Dash. Everything since the Phantom has been balanced on two tiers:

1.) This ship is just as broken as the Phantom. Look at all of the pilots for the Aggressor. Each one provides an equally good benefit and none of them are auto includes- except for B which is clearly the best one.

2.) A 3 health ship with an HLC?!?!?!?!!! That has to be expensive!!!!!! But a single Assault Missile could potentially damage 8 ships, you should be grateful it's only 5 points instead of 12!

So some of the stuff coming out will be cautiously balanced and then you'll end up getting some blatantly game breaking power combo in that same wave. So stuff like the M3-A is balanced with the mindset that you describe, and then we'll get something on par with the (pre-nerf)phantom that just dominates. I don't get how someone with that overly cautious mindset creates the Outrider title or ACD.

I think the situation you describe and I agree with is the result of more players than testers. With a limited number of play testers and a limited time frame to test new cards and ships AND THEN see how they react with cards and ships already in play vs a huge player base with almost unlimited hours to mix, match and tweak card/ship combinations things will slip through. I'm really surprised that more OP combos haven't shown up. I'm also surprised that certain things did make it through. The over costed M3 for example.

Another point but one I can't verify is the use of some type of algorithm to rough out a new ship/pilot combo for points. FFG probably uses one, based on Major Juggler's analysis. The results from this formula are probably very accurate when comparing non-unique pilots without special abilities. The program results surely gets a little fuzzy when pilot abilities are added. Then fuzzier still when EPTs are included. Every time new upgrades are released the possible combinations increase drastically. Take a pilot/ship combo that can take an EPT, Astromech, System Upgrade, cannon and crew. Let's say the following number of cards are available, in order, for that ship. 50 EPT, 8 mechs, 6 SU, 5 Cannon and 6 crew. That gives you a possible 72000 combinations! Not all of these combos will be playable but you get the idea of the task facing the designers and play testers. I'm fairly certain that Psycho Tycho slipped through the play testers. Imagine his abilities on a defender. It's stuff like this that makes me think FFG is being very careful with upgrades. Considering how few OP builds have gotten through, they're doing a heck of a job. And no, I am not associated with FFG in any way. :-)

I'm fairly certain that Psycho Tycho didn't actually slip through playtesting. It's a supremely powerful ability but it being on a 2 attack dice ship keeps it in check. I'm sure they tested it with PtL and then the Aces cards and determined that it was fine for Psycho Tycho to do 15 actions a turn with no consequence. I think we're at a point in the game's lifespan where we know a lot of the power combos (like ships that can attack twice and FCS) and could potentially neuter them before they're released. It only takes a few minutes to flip through a binder of all the upgrades and find the most powerful ones.

It doesn't take a genius to know that a crew card that turns all of your ship's white manuevers green would break the game on Super Dash. I understand that there are a lot of upgrade choices to consider but you can't tell me that someone thought Countermeasures would be too OP and needed to be restricted to large ships and be a 3 point disposable, but Super Dash's typical loadout isn't.

Or that hey, maybe you shouldn't be able to cloak for free with a 4 point upgrade.

I mean, look at the restrictions on SLAM. It's like they learned from ACD. Or how they made Tactician limited before the Hounds Tooth came out. But with Scum Super Dash coming out and regular Super Dash getting an entirely green dial it's almost as if a 7 year old is being allowed to design for FFG. "You know what would be awesome? If the Falcon could barrel roll and have a heavy laser cannon turret and all green manuevers and be able to ignore asteroids and have 10 health with 2 agility and be able to do 2 actions a turn and have a dial better than a TIE Fighter's! Yeah!"

But SLAM and bomb? Or dropping a bomb and then a mine in one turn? THAT would be overpowered.

I'm fairly certain that Psycho Tycho didn't actually slip through playtesting. It's a supremely powerful ability but it being on a 2 attack dice ship keeps it in check. I'm sure they tested it with PtL and then the Aces cards and determined that it was fine for Psycho Tycho to do 15 actions a turn with no consequence. I think we're at a point in the game's lifespan where we know a lot of the power combos (like ships that can attack twice and FCS) and could potentially neuter them before they're released. It only takes a few minutes to flip through a binder of all the upgrades and find the most powerful ones.

It doesn't take a genius to know that a crew card that turns all of your ship's white manuevers green would break the game on Super Dash. I understand that there are a lot of upgrade choices to consider but you can't tell me that someone thought Countermeasures would be too OP and needed to be restricted to large ships and be a 3 point disposable, but Super Dash's typical loadout isn't.

Or that hey, maybe you shouldn't be able to cloak for free with a 4 point upgrade.

I mean, look at the restrictions on SLAM. It's like they learned from ACD. Or how they made Tactician limited before the Hounds Tooth came out. But with Scum Super Dash coming out and regular Super Dash getting an entirely green dial it's almost as if a 7 year old is being allowed to design for FFG. "You know what would be awesome? If the Falcon could barrel roll and have a heavy laser cannon turret and all green manuevers and be able to ignore asteroids and have 10 health with 2 agility and be able to do 2 actions a turn and have a dial better than a TIE Fighter's! Yeah!"

But SLAM and bomb? Or dropping a bomb and then a mine in one turn? THAT would be overpowered.

A scum Super Dash? What did I miss? A full green dial rebel dash? When did this all happen?