help with this idea please. i want this to be the starting of a campaign. but can't figure it out.
help with this idea please. i want this to be the starting of a campaign. but can't figure it out.
To start off Vader wouldn't have been initially obsessive over finding him*. He may never have found out that he had a son. The second half of ESB would not play out the way it did (or at all).
That would probably mean that they just blasted the Millennium Falcon when it escaped from Hoth, rather than try and track it to Luke. Princess and Han are no more.
Luke still goes to train on Degobah, but does not return until his training is complete (no trap on Bespin to be lured into). Yoda continues the lie about Vader's relationship, and by the time Luke's training is complete, he is told that he has to defeat Vader.
At this point, he would return just in time to join the ground crew on Endor. He would have heard about Han and Leia's death. Either he would mourn them or their deaths would drive him to a dark place.
While on Endor, he would confront Vader. At this point it's up to you to decide how it would go. Vader doesn't know Luke's name*, so at some point Vader could ask him who he was and Luke could be truthful. That confrontation could go so many ways.
*The new canon comics inform us that he eventually found out about Luke (and his name) because he was investigating who blew up the Death Star. However, in the new comics Luke and Vader squared off before, so that may undo everything above.
Would Han even be welcomed into the Alliance if he had not blasted Vader, saved Luke, and made it possible for the Death Star to be destroyed? Would he have returned? If he returned what would they have told him?
All things considered if Luke isn't the one making that shot I think Han would have left to square things off with Jabba and been out of the picture. Leia then would have likely died on Hoth as there wouldn't have been no one to get her off the planet when she decides to leave. And without Han Luke would have died in the cold, since no one was there to save him.
Without Han, Lando never joins the Rebellion. All the key players that make RotJ a win are pretty much gone, thus the Emperors trap likely would have succeeded and the Rebellion would be crushed.
This is one of the hardest questions about an Alternate Timeline game. Once you reach your crucial moment, in this case Garven Dreis making the shot to destroy the Death Star. Every subsequent event in the Prime Timeline is invalid. Some of the really, really, really, short term things don't change, such as Han showing up about a minute later, but instead of Luke making his attack run, he finds the remains of a Death Star, or perhaps Vader flying through space if he happened to escape the explosion, the Rebels have probably already returned to the base. Long term things, like Hoth (2 years ABY) are going to be vastly, vastly different to the extent that they may not even exist anymore.
My advice to you, is throw out the canon, don't even consider it. Get into the minds of your NPC's (ala Vader, Palps etc) and determine their actions based on the new universe you've created, i will say, I would not try an Alternate Timeline game unless you are an experienced GM, and have an very extensive knowledge of the setting.
Edited by BigSpoonwhat ever you decide, tell your players up front. Ive had people in DND games that undermine changes ive made to settings because they have encyclopidic knowledge and later told me that they felt cheated by not being told that I planned on making the changes. My only adice for setting changes
If you're having trouble coming up with the alternate history after the key point when the timeline splits from canon, you might try farming it out to your players, at least in part.
When you need to build a 'universe' to play in, I'm a big fan of the 'Session 0' process, where the GM and players all work together to come up with the key parts of the universe their game lives in. Many groups do a partial 'session 0', where the GM tells the players the theme/concept of the campaign, and they build a group of characters to play. To expand on that, you can actually have everyone involved come up with the key NPCs, locations, and even events that will drive the campaign. The advantage with this is that every player gets direct input on the campaign from the outset, giving them a personal stake in the game. Since everybody gets to create some aspect of the in game 'universe', and everybody gets to riff and expand on those ideas, you end up with a group of players who actually know what's going on in the universe, and who the big players are.
In TV terms, you have the protagonists (the PCs), Faces (the important NPCs), Sets (places the group will visit repeatedly), Locations (collections of sets grouped by proximity, or relationship to other sets), and Organizations (the groups important to the story). For an Alt-U game, you'd want to add Events (the key differences that matter to the story after the turning point). Everybody comes up with some details for each of the categories, and hands them over to the other people to refine and expand upon. Faces, Organizations, Sets, and Locations end up with relationships, and linkages.
Thank you every one. I think I will wait, then do a session zero with my players. while thinking about what happened.
I see several different potentials from that 1 canon break point....
Many of which make little difference.
Keep in mind... the Alliance isn't very old - a couple years at most - at the start of ANH. The various rebel groups are each separate rebellions... some dating back 20 years, some only a few... but, without the alliance, the Mon Cal are likely bombed from orbit.
And if the death star survives the battle of yaavin.... Mon Cal, Sullust, Botha, and several other worlds die within the first year.
Some of the biggest points that, thus far, I've either seen unaddressed, addressed (imho) improperly, or over-addressed lead me to the following take. This list assumes some sort of destiny/inevitability...that is...that regardless of the details, the overall story will eventually steer the characters back where they belong somehow.
This gets us to ESB. Here, things are even more conditional, but I'll proceed with the assumption that Han and Chewie are back on Hoth somehow, and all major characters participate in the battle more or less the way they did in the movie.
For Return of the Jedi, it's far more simplified than it is in the movie, but very similar:
The unambiguous message this sends to players is:
This is not Luke's story.
Which leaves you with a question:
Is this the player character's story?
If you answer yes, and canon is dramatically changed, the players are on a collision course with destiny. At that point, the escapades, and ultimate fate, of the power trio matter not. I wouldn't include them at all. They exist? Great, but who cares? They're supporting cast... like Lando. Personally, if someone else takes the shot just in the nick of time (Wedge?), they're a big hero , but not a Jedi. That leaves you free reign to chart how the rebellion and player character's stories play out without any concern for the events of ESB or Jedi. Craft your own big finale.
Have fun.
Edited by Vondy
- Simply put, ESB becomes a far less interesting time period.
This depends entirely on whether the GM found a way to make the events of ANH about the players rather than Han, Luke, and Leia. What if the PCs, including a force-user or Jedi survivor, stole the Death Star Plans, and then participated in blowing up the Death Star? You could even include the rescue by having one of the PCs be the courier for the plans who was captured and taken there. What if Vader and the Emperor senses those PCs may be destined to potentially take down the Empire if something isn't done. Luke is Vader's son, yes. Fathers and sons and family drama and all that. Blah-blah-blah. But, a talented GM can find ways to craft a relevant and dramatic story that focuses on the player characters and plays out on its own terms. If its their destiny, rather than Luke's, to bring down Vader and the Emperor, let them!
Edited by Vondy
- Vader returns to his flagship and summons the bounty hunters to track down the wanted ship the Millenium Falcon, which has been chased into the asteroid field with a malfunctioning hyperdrive. Just before the hunters are released, the Executor and the rest of the fleet flush the Falcon, which hides on the back of a Star Destroyer command tower. They plot course for Bespin and go...followed by Boba Fett.
Why do you think Vader would care about the Millennium Falcon at this point? He was only interested because he knew Luke was either on the ship, or had friends who used that ship. He knew if he could get the Falcon, he would get Luke. Without that known connection to Luke, I doubt he would be so bent on perusing the Falcon. More likely, he would focus his efforts on the Rebel Fleet.
- Vader returns to his flagship and summons the bounty hunters to track down the wanted ship the Millenium Falcon, which has been chased into the asteroid field with a malfunctioning hyperdrive. Just before the hunters are released, the Executor and the rest of the fleet flush the Falcon, which hides on the back of a Star Destroyer command tower. They plot course for Bespin and go...followed by Boba Fett.
Why do you think Vader would care about the Millennium Falcon at this point? He was only interested because he knew Luke was either on the ship, or had friends who used that ship. He knew if he could get the Falcon, he would get Luke. Without that known connection to Luke, I doubt he would be so bent on perusing the Falcon. More likely, he would focus his efforts on the Rebel Fleet.
Ahem:
"Whether he cares about the Falcon is the real question: if he still sees it as a valuable target, proceed. If not, that's the end of ESB. Luke goes to Dagobah, Leia escapes with Han, and they reunite with the fleet. Han goes back to gunrunning and Leia helps find a new base."
- Simply put, ESB becomes a far less interesting time period.
This depends entirely on whether the GM found a way to make the events of ANH about the players rather than Han, Luke, and Leia. What if the PCs, including a force-user or Jedi survivor, stole the Death Star Plans, and then participated in blowing up the Death Star? You could even include the rescue by having one of the PCs be the courier for the plans who was captured and taken there. What if Vader and the Emperor senses those PCs may be destined to potentially take down the Empire if something isn't done. Luke is Vader's son, yes. Fathers and sons and family drama and all that. Blah-blah-blah. But, a talented GM can find ways to craft a relevant and dramatic story that focuses on the player characters and plays out on its own terms. If its their destiny, rather than Luke's, to bring down Vader and the Emperor, let them!
You can play the what if game to any permutation you like. At that point, you're beyond the scope of any kind of reasonable discussion and you're just spitballing.
I'm not approaching this from the angle of "what could you do with a whole different cast of characters and the intent to take things in a wildly different direction". It's pretty obvious that if that's the way you want to go, anything is possible, in fact, that's the wholepoint of a campaign based on Rebel heroes during the OT. That's not really what the premise of the thread was when it started. Rather, it was about the impact on the established setting, plot, and characters" based on changing one small, but highly significant detail of a major turning point of the story. That's what I went on, and in fact, I qualified my talking points with the following:
"This list assumes some sort of destiny/inevitability...that is...that regardless of the details, the overall story will eventually steer the characters back where they belong somehow."
I'm approaching it from the perspective that it is such a significant shift of focus on a narrative and story level that discussing how we end up at the same end with the same characters is a fool's errand. If the end remains the same and its still all driven by Luke's destiny and the power-trio, why change who blows up the Death Star at all? The entire event sets him up as THE hero and rockets him down the rails of destiny towards the showdown with Vader and the Emperor. Its a go big or go home kind of change to make. Edited by VondyYou can play the what if game to any permutation you like. At that point, you're beyond the scope of any kind of reasonable discussion and you're just spitballing.
- Simply put, ESB becomes a far less interesting time period.
This depends entirely on whether the GM found a way to make the events of ANH about the players rather than Han, Luke, and Leia. What if the PCs, including a force-user or Jedi survivor, stole the Death Star Plans, and then participated in blowing up the Death Star? You could even include the rescue by having one of the PCs be the courier for the plans who was captured and taken there. What if Vader and the Emperor senses those PCs may be destined to potentially take down the Empire if something isn't done. Luke is Vader's son, yes. Fathers and sons and family drama and all that. Blah-blah-blah. But, a talented GM can find ways to craft a relevant and dramatic story that focuses on the player characters and plays out on its own terms. If its their destiny, rather than Luke's, to bring down Vader and the Emperor, let them!
I'm not approaching this from the angle of "what could you do with a whole different cast of characters and the intent to take things in a wildly different direction". It's pretty obvious that if that's the way you want to go, anything is possible, in fact, that's the wholepoint of a campaign based on Rebel heroes during the OT. That's not really what the premise of the thread was when it started. Rather, it was about the impact on the established setting, plot, and characters" based on changing one small, but highly significant detail of a major turning point of the story. That's what I went on, and in fact, I qualified my talking points with the following:
"This list assumes some sort of destiny/inevitability...that is...that regardless of the details, the overall story will eventually steer the characters back where they belong somehow."
I'm approaching it from the perspective that it is such a significant shift of focus on a narrative and story level that discussing how we end up at the same end with the same characters is a fool's errand. If the end remains the same and its still all driven by Luke's destiny and the power-trio, why change who blows up the Death Star at all? The entire event sets him up as THE hero and rockets him down the rails of destiny towards the showdown with Vader and the Emperor. Its a go big or go home kind of change to make.
You can play the what if game to any permutation you like. At that point, you're beyond the scope of any kind of reasonable discussion and you're just spitballing.
- Simply put, ESB becomes a far less interesting time period.
This depends entirely on whether the GM found a way to make the events of ANH about the players rather than Han, Luke, and Leia. What if the PCs, including a force-user or Jedi survivor, stole the Death Star Plans, and then participated in blowing up the Death Star? You could even include the rescue by having one of the PCs be the courier for the plans who was captured and taken there. What if Vader and the Emperor senses those PCs may be destined to potentially take down the Empire if something isn't done. Luke is Vader's son, yes. Fathers and sons and family drama and all that. Blah-blah-blah. But, a talented GM can find ways to craft a relevant and dramatic story that focuses on the player characters and plays out on its own terms. If its their destiny, rather than Luke's, to bring down Vader and the Emperor, let them!
I'm not approaching this from the angle of "what could you do with a whole different cast of characters and the intent to take things in a wildly different direction". It's pretty obvious that if that's the way you want to go, anything is possible, in fact, that's the wholepoint of a campaign based on Rebel heroes during the OT. That's not really what the premise of the thread was when it started. Rather, it was about the impact on the established setting, plot, and characters" based on changing one small, but highly significant detail of a major turning point of the story. That's what I went on, and in fact, I qualified my talking points with the following:
"This list assumes some sort of destiny/inevitability...that is...that regardless of the details, the overall story will eventually steer the characters back where they belong somehow."
If you're not going to have any sort of guide to what stays the same, the whole discussion is so much navel-gazing.
The "What If" game is something where you're just tossing random ideas out there...it's not a process...nothing is right or wrong...and there's not really any value to it. One might just as validly point out that, had Luke not blown up the death star, everyone in the galaxy might have suddenly turned into pink polka-dotted elephants and taken up jazz flute.
The entire story is based upon and around the unique interaction between the Force and the Skywalker bloodline. I mean, more than once actual characters in the movies speak about Luke's destiny. If you're going to reject that, then it becomes a very different discussion. The whole premise of the discussion (as I understood it, at least) was that we were discussing how the events of the OT might have changed based on one specific point of divergence. Not a matter of discussing every last possible thing that was capable of happening in the setting, regardless of plausibility.
If you're talking about the OT, and the Death Star is still destroyed, certain things still should logically happen: the Rebels still go to Hoth, where they are found, routed, and displaced by the Imperials. Luke is still the son of Vader, strong in the Force, so it stands to reason he would still receive is vision of Obi-wan and go to Dagobah, where he will receive his Jedi training. The Empire will build a DS2 (and there's no reason to suspect it will be done any differently because of which X-wing destroyed the first one). And given that none of the key input factors would have to change, it stands to reason that the Rebel fleet will still engage the Empire at Endor, the strike team will still have the same challenges and success on the moon surface, and the DS2 will still be destroyed in the same way. None of that requires any creative denial or willful ignorance to anything. In fact, arguing for a significant divergence from those events requires further assumptions. You have to take the existing "the first shot took out the DS1" and add other "1st tier" (or..."because I said so") changes to get things to go more awry. So Luke doesn't destroy the death star AND something else...
I just don't see any value in considering all tangents, no matter how unlikely, just because nothing specifically disproves it (within the scope of a discussion where nothing can be disproven because it's all speculation).
I see a few significant points that would change things;
1) Does someone prior to Luke, such as Gold Leader (Dutch Vander) or Red Leader (Garven Dreis) take the killing shot instead of missing?
If yes, then Han Solo sees the Death Star get blown to smithereens before returning to the Rebels.
If no, then Han Solo still returns to the Rebels and clears Vader from the tail of whomever is making the killing shot, as he was already in the process of turning around.
This means that Han still joins the Rebels in their flight from Yavin, as he shows his commitment to his friends. Otherwise, Han is out of the picture as he pays off Jabba. You still have the out to have Han return by contacting the Rebel Alliance after that is said and done, but it creates the second significant change point:
2) Is Han with the Rebels when they are discovered on Hoth?
If yes, then it can reasonably be assumed that the opening to ESB will remain unchanged - he will be on patrol when the droid lands, he will head back out to rescue Luke, and he will be there to help the Princess away when she is left behind.
If no, then someone else will need to eliminate the probe droid. and Luke's survival in the snow becomes a different situation.
How he survives (or doesn't) is now drawn into question and creates the third change point:
3) Does Luke survive the night on Hoth?
If yes, then it can reasonably be assumed that he will return and help the Rebels successfully evacuate Hoth. This is the result we will assume as you stated that Destiny will see things mostly the same. The end result of course then, is that Luke heads off to Dagobah under Obi-Wan's advisement.
If no, then it will fall to Leia to redeem or overthrow Vader and his Emperor, and going on the premise that Han (through the aforementioned destiny) would not have been on Hoth at the time of the droid's arrival, then fate would still most likely see him arrive in time to evacuate and save the Princess.
If the destiny clause does not protect the OT heroes, then in this instance the Princess is captured and must be rescued (most likely by Han - who at this time will have returned to make contact after resolving his bounty as mentioned in postulate 1). In either case, then the fourth and fifth change points come into play:
4) Does Luke complete his training on Dagobah? In all of the scenarios above, Luke destroying the Death Star was the sole motivator in Vader discovering Luke's name. In the Vader comic series (canon per Disney's new rules) the Emperor humiliates Vader due to his failing to protect the Death Star. Vader in turn goes out of his way to track down the pilot responsible for this humiliation (he really didn't care that the Death Star was destroyed - he considered it an atrocity). Without this motivator, his agents would never have brought him the name Skywalker. As such, there is no reason for him to attempt capture of the Millenium Falcon, and Han would have gotten Leia free if he were present. However, if Leia were captured, one could argue that Vader would again torture her as he did in Episode IV. This would act the same as Han having been tortured in ESB again causing Luke to rush off and not complete his training.
If Luke completes his training, then the end of RoTJ would be mostly unchanged. Luke would return to the fleet after his training (instead of returning after going to Dagobah to finish his training/witness Yoda's passing) and thus be present to confront Vader and the Emperor.
If Luke doesn't finish his training due to running off to rescue Leia, then the Destiny clause will see him meet back up with Han during the rescue and in the process confront Vader before successfully rescuing Leia.
In either case, Luke will be prepared for RotJ with the knowledge that Vader is his father, as Yoda would have told him when his training was complete (Yoda stated "not ready for the burden were you" - it was always assumed when ready he would be told) or during the encounter with Vader (due to the Destiny clause) while rescuing the Princess. The difference between the two is that if Luke completes his training he will face Vader and the Emperor with full training and both hands, versus encountering him with incomplete training and a mechanical prosthesis (if he rushes off to face him). Reasonably, it doesn't matter which of these come into play - the Destiny clause says that Vader will be redeemed whether or not Luke has full training and two hands, and will also demand that Anakin die in the process - cause Destiny is a bitter, spiteful thing.
5) Does the Falcon go to Cloud City?
If Han evacuates the princess, it's reasonable to assume through the Destiny clause that Lando will (for some reason) come along with them. While the invasion of the Empire was the motivator in ESB, most likely it would be Leia in this altered fate. His attraction to her and her skilled rhetoric would certainly see his wanderlust renewed and join the Alliance.
If Han wasn't there to evacuate the Princess, then the Destiny clause would probably see the rescue of the Princess to somehow involve having to lie low in Cloud City - probably bringing the wrath of the Empire. In this case, the outcome would be the same for poor Cloud City, and Lando would still join the Rebellion.
The Return of the Jedi would really only have a single difference in either case - Luke's Lightsaber would be Blue, and the first half of the movie would be skipped, as there is no need for Han's freezing - he would have time after the escape from Hoth to pay off Jabba or he would have done so after A New Hope. All the players, however, would still be with the fleet at Sullust, and thus all would still play the same roles in RotJ, after all, the Emperor even told Vader that Luke would come to him, he need not do anything, and then he would in turn bring him before the Emperor. It's pretty set in stone at that point regardless of how it got there. Vader (upon seeing Luke's lightsaber) would instinctively know - there's a connection to one's lightsaber that is unassailable, bringing all the information back to where it needed to be.
Edited by Kyla
- Vader returns to his flagship and summons the bounty hunters to track down the wanted ship the Millenium Falcon, which has been chased into the asteroid field with a malfunctioning hyperdrive. Just before the hunters are released, the Executor and the rest of the fleet flush the Falcon, which hides on the back of a Star Destroyer command tower. They plot course for Bespin and go...followed by Boba Fett.
Why do you think Vader would care about the Millennium Falcon at this point? He was only interested because he knew Luke was either on the ship, or had friends who used that ship. He knew if he could get the Falcon, he would get Luke. Without that known connection to Luke, I doubt he would be so bent on perusing the Falcon. More likely, he would focus his efforts on the Rebel Fleet.
Of which Leia was on the Falcon and he could use her (or whoever was on the Falcon) in some manner to track down the fleet.
I have started my SW campaign with a similar idea in that Qui-gon did not die in Episode !, Plagueis was not killed by Sidious (although Sidious thinks he did), and Plagueis uses the clone wars to oust not just the Jedi but Sidious as well.
So i now have a Anti-human Empire running the Galactic Empire, I use near-humans (Chiss, Mirialans, Etti, etc... to replace humans in the Adventure modules) and more of a Sith Empire (more than 2 sith) running things.
I mostly did this to throw my son off as he tried to use player knowledge to make his Character decisions. Its fun to watch him when I throw a curveball his way, like they just rescued Tarkin who is going to be a important member of the alliance at some point in the campaign.