Is it me, or do I feel that YT-2400s are basically better than the X-Wing in every way?

Same AS, more health, more speed, Rogue movement, black vs. ships, for 3 points more? I mean, I'd take that over Escort for sure.

I think the problem is that what we were expecting from X-Wing squadrons was a solid jack-of-all-trades durable fighter squadron and what we received was a bit more fighter-oriented and with the extra points tacked on for Escort. If you can't get good use from Escort, X-Wings are very lackluster (which means simply spamming X-Wings, as newer players tend to do, is a horrible idea because then Escort does nothing). In wave one, there weren't a lot of opportunities for X-Wings to shine. A-Wings did the cover all bases shtick better (and faster), Y-Wings didn't really need that much Escorting against fleets with few to no squadrons, and B-Wings could handle themselves nearly as well as X-Wings should they need to fight their way out of something.

Nowadays with Wave 2, I feel that the H6 Scurrg Bomber and Jan Ors have made X-Wings a lot more appealing. The synergy between generic X-Wings and these other two squadrons is strong (The X-Wings Escort Jan, she provides Brace tokens to drastically improve their durability, the H6s love having fighter Escorts and with Grit the X-Wings can quite capably take out engaging enemies to free up H6s to continue on their way). X-Wings are also the most cost-effective Squadron-command-activated means of chipping away at the wave 2 boogeyman, the Fireball (doing 4 blue dice for 13 points, and capable of double activating through Yavaris or Adar Tallon), whereas A-Wings can struggle to do serious damage to enemy squadrons when their Counter 2 gets ignored due to Intel making them Heavy and thus ignorable. Now that you can expect to see enemy squadrons on the table they can also resume the job they were supposed to have in wave one of running interference for Y-Wings (preferably with Jan around to help too).

As a stand-alone jack-of-all-trades squadron, however, the YT-2400 is superior (especially in fleets that don't want to kick out more Squadron commands). If you were one of those players who just wanted to spam X-Wings in wave one, you can now have your wish granted more competitively with the YT-2400. I just don't think it makes the X-Wing obsolete - if anything, the X-Wing in wave 2 is much more viable than it was in wave 1, but we as a community need to see the X-Wing for what it is (an Escort fighter with limited bomber utility) instead of what we wish it was (a jack-of-all-trades squadron), because the YT-2400 beats the pants off of the X-Wing we were wishing for but does not exist.

On a side note, I'm kind of hoping that with the new trilogy coming out FFG will release T-70 X-Wing squadrons that function more like cheaper non-Rogue YT-2400s, so every Rebel who wanted to field mostly X-Wing squadrons can live their dream while remaining competitive.

On a side note, I'm kind of hoping that with the new trilogy coming out FFG will release T-70 X-Wing squadrons that function more like cheaper non-Rogue YT-2400s, so every Rebel who wanted to field mostly X-Wing squadrons can live their dream while remaining competitive.

Love your entire analysis, but I especially want this. I would happily pay 15 points for a black die and speed 4 while retaining bomber and escort. Heck, I might play 15 just for the black bomber die. I would worry that meant the Y-Wing would become defunct, but seeing as it would still cost 33% less, I think they would be OK.

Also, I need Poe Dameron yesterday.

On a side note, I'm kind of hoping that with the new trilogy coming out FFG will release T-70 X-Wing squadrons that function more like cheaper non-Rogue YT-2400s, so every Rebel who wanted to field mostly X-Wing squadrons can live their dream while remaining competitive.

Love your entire analysis, but I especially want this. I would happily pay 15 points for a black die and speed 4 while retaining bomber and escort. Heck, I might play 15 just for the black bomber die. I would worry that meant the Y-Wing would become defunct, but seeing as it would still cost 33% less, I think they would be OK.

Also, I need Poe Dameron yesterday.

Thanks! It's always good to know you're appreciated .

I'd probably make T-70s lose Escort (as generic T-65 X-Wings do that already, it gives them a place) and give them similar stats to a YT-2400, as Escort costs points (my guess is 1, maybe 2) and en-masse it's kind of "meh," which is not what you want on your bread-and-butter squadrons. I would add a request that if we (you, me, the community?) wants to discuss what we'd like to see in a more spammable X-Wing it might be best to start a new thread for it for fear of clogging this thread up with discussion on a matter that's not really relevant to the OP's intended purpose.

Also, another thought experiment on the value of rogue:

How would the squadron game be different if every ship generated a single squadron token every turn for free, regardless of the command actually taken?

Also, another thought experiment on the value of rogue:

How would the squadron game be different if every ship generated a single squadron token every turn for free, regardless of the command actually taken?

I mean it would make Garm and Tarkin less good (as Squadron tokens would be super easy to come by and clog up ships with tokens). It would make Liason officer upgrades much better. It would make character aces much better (as they could consistently be activated every turn). It would make generic squadrons slightly better.

Honestly it's a big question and although this is your thread I feel like this question has the potential to drastically derail the discussion. FFG won't be making the change, so I'm not sure what we gain from talking about it in the long run.

Rogue would be devalued for certain.

My point was more that it would make it far easier to do things like throw in a few x-wings or a-wings and be sure you can boss them around... or, a different way of saying all future squadrons are going to have to compete with the fact that the YT-2400 allows you to take commands other than squadron, so the opportunity cost of giving up a repair or nav is part of the issue with taking them.

In a roundabout way, I think I am saying rogue is potentially undercosted and/or non-rogue squadrons are overcosted on average (I think A-wings may be fairly priced).

In a roundabout way, I think I am saying rogue is potentially undercosted and/or non-rogue squadrons are overcosted on average (I think A-wings may be fairly priced).

Having used 3 Aggressor Assault Fighters (+Dengar, in my current Ozzel fleet) lately for the last three games, I feel like they're fairly costed at the very least. Rogue is good, but it's easily a few points per squadron (I'd estimate an average of about 2-3 for vanilla squadrons and a bit more for aces) and it comes with the notable downside that if you prematurely activate Rogues (with Squadron commands) you're wasting the points you spent on Rogue but if you don't prematurely activate them, they are inferior to Squadron-activated regular squadrons that are cheaper. If you come up against someone else who takes their squadrons seriously, your Rogue squadrons are likely going to have a bad time.

This discomfort with Squadron command activations has ramifications for certain kinds of squadron-enhancing upgrades that one would normally put onto carriers, like various titles (mostly Rebels), Flight Controllers, Expanded Hangar Bays, Boosted Comms, etc. You can get TIE Fighters up to a silly number of blue dice with the right helpers (Flight Controllers + Howlrunner) but Rogues aren't really configured well to be helped that way. The only real carrier upgrade that works well with Rogues is Adar Tallon, as he can allow a premature activation and then a normal Rogue activation later.

Rogues come down to ease of use. I'd make a comparison between Firesprays and TIE Bombers (get ready, here come the bullet points). You can get one Firespray for the cost of two TIE Bombers, and they're the backbone of the mean ol' Fireball. So let's compare the two. For 18 points, you get...

• Hull: 6 hull vs. two squadrons with 5 hull each (10 total)
• Anti-squadron: 3 blue dice (average: 1.5 damage) vs. 2 separate black dice (average 1.5 damage)
• Anti-ship: 2 blue dice with bomber (average: 1.5 damage) vs. 2 separate black dice with bomber (average: 2 damage)
• Speed: 3 vs. 4

The two TIE Bombers are actually superior in a face-to-face match, in some cases substantially so. The main benefit of the Firespray is:

1. Rogue, so it can keep moving and doing its thing without Squadron commands to catch up
2. Compacted space so it's easier to cover with an Intel and/or Escort bubble
3. 1 more hull point, which is only superior vs. heavy flak (as the 10 total HP of the TIE Bombers is superior vs. fighter squadrons)

You will note that these benefits are substantial when opponents are not bringing a serious fighter squadron presence to your games (which allows your Intel bubble to ignore meager enemy squadrons and rely on your bomber squadrons not getting shot down by dedicated fighters at too fast a rate). You also have the luxury of not needing to worry about dedicating points to your own fighters (to take out enemy fighters who are hypothetically ruining your Fireball plans), which allows you to spend more luxuriously on the Fireball/Firesprays and generally disregard carrier upgrades.

In a meta where serious fighter squadron presence is common, a lot of the conditions that allow for Rogue supremacy (in this case) begin to evaporate, giving us a more complex and nuanced situation. Similarly, the YT-2400 (bringing it back home) is a swell squadron but if you're relying on it alone with no Squadron commands or Squadron multiplier upgrades to carry you through against someone who is invested in winning the squadron game, you're going to have a bad time.

Anti-Ship

• The B-Wing and the Scurrg stand head and shoulders above everything else in terms of ship damage. Nothing else is even close.
• Y-Wings, A-Wings, and YT-2400s form the next block of anti-ship attackers.

You are missing X-wings in there. They are better than A-wings vs ships since they actually get to resolve crit effects.

Anti-Ship

• The B-Wing and the Scurrg stand head and shoulders above everything else in terms of ship damage. Nothing else is even close.
• Y-Wings, A-Wings, and YT-2400s form the next block of anti-ship attackers.

You are missing X-wings in there. They are better than A-wings vs ships since they actually get to resolve crit effects.

Yes and no.

They get to resolve a crit effect (assuming no shields), but they also have a higher chance to just straight up miss (3/8 vs. 2/8). The reason I go with raw average damage is that it's definitely a direct comparison between each ship that is meaningful and doesn't require additional assumptions (how often are shields down, how often does speed 3 leave you out of range vs. speed 5, etc.).

And it all comes down to context. On the, is rogue worth it? I showed a month or two back (with the help of someone doing awesome visuals) that a reasonably flown A-wing can get 4 anti-ship attacks per game. So move, attack from the front, attack from the back, reposition, and two more attacks. Rogue basically gives one more attack over the course of the game. So the expected A-wing anti-ship vs a squadron less opponent is 3 damage. A YT-2400 expects 3.75 damage over the course of a game. (We assume the first turn attack is unlikely in most scenarios). This means 32 points of YT-2400 gets me 7.5 damage for the game. 33 points of A-wings gets me 9 damage (all without squadron commands).

In the A vs X stand-off, the A's speed means it's far more likely to get off the full 4 attacks. The speed 3 X-wing can sometimes miss a turn that the A would make meaning some games an X would only get the expected 2.25 damage. Of course the red die double hit greatly increases variance.

X-wings will remain relevant for two reasons. First, as already pointed out they have escort which not only helps Jan and H-6s but also B-wings. In the era of few/no squadrons Yavaris Bs could handle most situations. But now with greater numbers of squadrons, an X-wing or 2 really helps them out.

The second point is they remain the most cost efficient source of anti-squadron dice. 4 blues for 13 points is better than the As 3 blues for 11. The As counter is useful, but only if the enemy attacks you. It doesn't help the alpha strike. The X-wing is the best alpha strike the Rebels have. Provided the engagement distance is not between 3 and 4, I'd rather have X-wings all day than YT-2400s. The rogue only works when not engaged. It's not to hard to set up the second (or third) turn squadron command to get the X-wings out first. Once engaged they don't always need follow up commands. The big exception is vs Dengar, but only if Dengar lives. The X-wings are the best bet to get the jump on Dengar and eliminate him quickly.

Now MASQ and MASH divided by number of points would be an interesting statistic.

I do believe if points are factored in, TIE fighters reign supreme - but that doesn't count the likelihood of a bundle of 5 of them being hosed down by a neb-B escort frigate.

@D503. Squad numbers are near the end of the first post.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/189785-running-the-numbers-wave-2-offense/

Going back through that list, it's a reminder that Y-wings are not the far off of H-6s. They don't have Grit, but they do have better anti-squadron per point spent than H-6s. As we saw during wave 1, a swarm of Y-wings can be powerful in the right circumstances.

I'm all over the X-Wing.

I have 7 X-Wings, Wedge, and Jan ready to go my next gaming day.

Wedge with Flight Controllers is going to be my Anti-Dengar Alpha Striker. Because I can't resist the lure of having to borrow a die from my opponent, even though I have 2 dice packs already...

I'm a big fan of X's. 13 points for a Bomber with four anti-squadron dice, five hull, competitive speed is a nice mix. The fact that they have Escort (and therefore I don't need to think so hard about where Jan goes) is now a boon. Except on Wedge... then it's a liability.

My current Rebel build is Jan, an A-wing, six X's, and Han (cuz he's awesome--I don't care if he's overpriced ). It wrecks face with TIEs, the Escort bubble is huge , and there's plenty of squads to shoot at IG-88 (and his TA pals). I'd prefer not to have six red Bomber dice, but eh, whatever... now if only they could get counter somehow.

On a side note, I'm kind of hoping that with the new trilogy coming out FFG will release T-70 X-Wing squadrons that function more like cheaper non-Rogue YT-2400s, so every Rebel who wanted to field mostly X-Wing squadrons can live their dream while remaining competitive.

Love your entire analysis, but I especially want this. I would happily pay 15 points for a black die and speed 4 while retaining bomber and escort. Heck, I might play 15 just for the black bomber die. I would worry that meant the Y-Wing would become defunct, but seeing as it would still cost 33% less, I think they would be OK.

Also, I need Poe Dameron yesterday.

POOOOOOOOOOOOOEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

I have an X-wing all primed to be painted black and orange... maybe today.

A speed-4 T-70 X-wing with a black die would be awesome, though I'd settle for just the black die as well.

An upgraded anti-ship battery for Poe would seem very thematic as well (blue-blue?), though at that point he's in 26ish range, and I can't afford him and Han.

Just give a scatter to Poe and I'll be in heaven.

boosted comms makes commanding non-rogues far more simple for rebels (who like to keep their distance, as opposed to star destroyers that can barrel in with their supporting squadrons)

huge fan of the YT-2400s, though. They're great with Akbar and MM, who I found don't care to spend time supporting squadrons when they've got ships to command. Having cr-90s on hand, though, lets you get emergency surprise activation out of your Rogues when the enemy least expects it. Extra useful if you have Dash Rendar

boosted comms makes commanding non-rogues far more simple for rebels (who like to keep their distance, as opposed to star destroyers that can barrel in with their supporting squadrons)

huge fan of the YT-2400s, though. They're great with Akbar and MM, who I found don't care to spend time supporting squadrons when they've got ships to command. Having cr-90s on hand, though, lets you get emergency surprise activation out of your Rogues when the enemy least expects it. Extra useful if you have Dash Rendar

All if this is true. Although I just played a game where I cut my VSD to 0 for like 3 turns and very much enjoyed boosted comms.

I wonder if they would put out all the wave 1 fighters in a new pack that has some of them with rouge.

lol, and glitter? like cantina girls.

How many yt24s do you run in your ackbr and mothma lists? I feel like I want to control the deployment as ackbar and typically want at least 6 squadrons.

How many yt24s do you run in your ackbr and mothma lists? I feel like I want to control the deployment as ackbar and typically want at least 6 squadrons.

I like 4 in my current setup. 2 extra deploys, 24 hull, 16 attack dice at speed-4. Not too shabby.

How many yt24s do you run in your ackbr and mothma lists? I feel like I want to control the deployment as ackbar and typically want at least 6 squadrons.

4 is the magic # for me

enough to stall out 2 ships worth of deployment, and just seems to work well in general

before 4 Yt-2400s I had 4 Bs (1 Keyan) also doing lots of work back in Wave 1

I refuse to buy that many also just my opinion but I feel pigeon holes if I were to do that

I refuse to buy that many also just my opinion but I feel pigeon holes if I were to do that

Not dedicated enough

4 packs also allows you to run the dreaded Fireball, so if anything, you can probably ebay the rest and make a forfeit.

dedicated rebel player so I reject your reality and substitute my own

even then though I'm not going to pay that much to run one specific squadron set up