CR90 more survivable? meh.

Just like the raider, if the CR90 gets the love and attention of the big boys it melts.

I don't run my ISDII without either XI7s or HTs so one good long range double arc roll with CF and it can severely inconvenience or destroy a CR90, if it's a B trying to get smart in medium range...well....

You can't expect a raider to survive much more than a CR90 and quite possibly less, it has the ability to hit quite hard and the tradeoff is it dies.

I'm no expert but I find raider works best when you give the opponent the difficult choice of melting the raider or hitting something bigger, to that end I find on a big slow list you HAVE to keep the raider close to your big boys and dart them out like a dagger to the gut at just the right time (and ANY DAY NOW I will learn how to do that right...lol) on a high activation list I have seen the little bastards do very very well swarming with ACMs and screed, speed 3 or 4 and ram or fly-through follow up with demolisher and generic glad, maybe a mini fireball.

It's not a perfect ship, perfect ship would be game breaking and actually kinda boring. It IS however, a necessary fast, small base option to fill a particular tactical need in Imperial lists for which there was previously no solution.

I managed my first game without losing one of my 3 Raiders today. Although 2 were badly mauled, many B-wings a Neb-B and CR-90B met their end in return. I also used expanded hangers on 2 of them. This allowed my fighter commands to be instant and where they needed to be. Worked out Well as my Victory-II spent the first half of the game getting into position. Anyway fun match, my opponent and I had a good time.

I forgot to post my list for the above.

Ozzel's Hounds V4

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 394/400

Commander: Admiral Ozzel

Assault Objective: Most Wanted
Defense Objective: Hyperspace Assault
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

Raider-II Class Corvette (48 points)
- Impetuous ( 4 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

Raider-II Class Corvette (48 points)
- Director Isard ( 3 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Instigator ( 4 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

[ flagship ] Victory II-Class Star Destroyer (85 points)
- Admiral Ozzel ( 20 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- XI7 Turbolasers ( 6 points)
- Ion Cannon Batteries ( 5 points)

4 TIE Fighter Squadrons ( 32 points)
1 Boba Fett ( 26 points)
3 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 36 points)

Ohh I forgot that they can all take Flight Controllers. . . Hmmmm Raiders shooting out 3 Squadrons a turn with an extra blue die. . . hmmmmm

If I had more flight controllers I would have one on each Raider.

If I had more flight controllers I would have one on each Raider.

Yea. . . Even I have not had a need to buy another VSD. . . Would like to just buy the card though. . .

That and I wouldn't mind more of the Ion Cannon Batteries as well. That card has worked well for me. May be buying another Victory Yet.

I haven't found Gladiators much more survivable than Raiders in my wave two games. You just can't run your brawlers out in front that same way you could in wave 1.

I always throught gladiators were unusually costed. Haha.

It IS however, a necessary fast, small base option to fill a particular tactical need in Imperial lists for which there was previously no solution.

Which particular tactical need is that? And I'm not taking the pee. I have flown them several times and the only need they fulfill is providing more pts for my opponent - oh and my wife thinks it's cute!

Very interesting point about the Raiders guys !

I've settled on the Imps for my Wave 2 navy (while I was largely Rebels for my Wave 1 I just love being the underdog apparently ), and so far it seems that the Raider from the experience on the tabletop is a support ship much like the Nebs.

After losing shamefully in the last tournament (I wanted to try a Garm with 1 AF + 2 Nebs list, it didn't end well), I've limited myself to 1 Neb per line ship (CR90 or AF back then) and it did the trick. Due to the lack of Redirect, the Raider doesn't want to be in the thick of things. For some reason, I've found that Redirects are more efficient than Braces as a general defense token to allow you to spread damage while Brace mitigates super strong damage and prevents decisive actions (but leaving your hull zone without shields it's vulnerable to precision strikes).

I'm not by any means saying that it is bad, just that I really don't see it as the mainstay of an Imperial Fleet due to the lack of Redirects.

The raider would be SUCH a better ship with redirect. Basically a smaller and forward firing Gladiator. which.. I really don't mind at all.

I do plan on running one in my list with overload pulse. Even if it only works once (and it has for me a couple of times already), setting it up to fire the pulse off with Screed and then blasting whatever I hit with Avenger (or even Demolisher) is pretty nice

The raider would be SUCH a better ship with redirect. Basically a smaller and forward firing Gladiator. which.. I really don't mind at all.

Yeah exactly ! Much like the Neb, I feel that the lack of redirect confines it to supporting the main battle line. Which I'm fine with too !

Like Corlin said, Overload Pulse on such a small ship is pretty amazing. I know from using multiple CR90Bs which punch above their weight with that upgrade (only one is necessary per fleet).

It IS however, a necessary fast, small base option to fill a particular tactical need in Imperial lists for which there was previously no solution.

Which particular tactical need is that? And I'm not taking the pee. I have flown them several times and the only need they fulfill is providing more pts for my opponent - oh and my wife thinks it's cute!

Small, fast, maneuverable low-point ship to fill niche roles.

People want the raider to fit into their existing boxes and when that doesn't work they reach for the tissues.

I have seen the raider work as:

- An expendable "blocker" to set up an ISD or "Cap a conga"

- A medium range gun platform to support ISDs (usually with overload pulse)

- Pocket carrier

- Anti-fighter support

- WIDE flank designed to come into engagement mid-battle when targets are more concerned with other things

I have NOT seen the raider do well in traditional Imperial tactics (i.e. run it in and pew pew)

I have NOT seen it do well as an "Imperial CR90"

If you think you are going to add a raider or 2 to your existing 300 point list to round out to 400 points and run them out like they are "gladiator lights" you will be throwing away a bunch of points.

Play the game the way it is not the way you think it should be! Just look at the defense tokens and they will tell you what a raider is for and what it is not for.

What box does Admiral Ozzel come in? Exactly. A 1 command dial ship paired with Ozzel and a banked nav token, it can go from long range to medium/short range in a turn. It can go from blocking/bumping a ship to flying through it in 1 turn, it can go from a wide flanking position to directly behind an enemy.

It has 2 evades because its designed to be at long range until it is instantly at short range, preferably in a rear arc.

It IS a niche ship, designed to fill some specific roles and it does take a particular type of flying to work well, outside of those roles it can be...disappointing.

I'm not claiming to be a raider expert, I can see the theory but have struggled in the execution, the few times I have pulled off the raider-as-intended it has surprised the opponent and I can say with some confidence, turned the battle.

Times the raider has worked for me:

Expanded launcher raider in double arc position in the front arc of a AFMK2 (survived 2 rounds)

Overload pulse raider - set up 2 Neb B's for Avenger annihilation while they were focused on the ISD (raider was about distance 1 away from the ISD)

2 Raider pocket carriers (with exp hangars) pushing the non-rogue elements of a Fireball while also running anti-fighter to win a massive furball

in a tournament: sacrifice raider blocked MC30 preventing a wide flanking maneuver until my ISD was no longer in an exposed position leaving a second MC30 exposed to concentrated fire (raider did not fire, totally worth it)

For every one of these I have had 2 raiders blown up to no effect in a complete waste of points, but i'm still learning. If I wasn't I would stop playing this game because it would be boring.

The Raider and the MC-30 are both striking me as the same thing:

One could potentially be very good, but they are likely to have rapidly diminishing returns beyond that.

Anti-squadron fire is a legitimate role for the raider if the meta goes heavily towards squadrons. Expendable ship blocker is another very good role for the raider if you are facing lots of Ackbar squadrons (you just have to approach them from the front, which speed 4 should allow you to do).

They are not good against other ships. Too fragile, short ranged. This is why I don't believe multiples or a fleet based around them will work; this game is ultimately about capital ships, and we have a small ship that is not good against capital ships. That, by definition, cannot be a ship of the line.

They are not good against other ships. Too fragile, short ranged. This is why I don't believe multiples or a fleet based around them will work; this game is ultimately about capital ships, and we have a small ship that is not good against capital ships. That, by definition, cannot be a ship of the line.

I disagree. That combination of blue and black dice in the front arc can get very deadly against other ships. You just need to be very careful, especially against ships that can toss a bunch of dice at you. Staying in the "safe" arcs becomes extremely important in those circumstances, but a Raider camping out in an MC80 front arc can actually make a surprisingly very good showing for itself.

Thinking of the Raider as only an anti-squadron ship is a mistake. The BIG takeaway about the Raider that I've had through running mine about a dozen+ times now is that it's a great force multiplier. It needs supporting friendly ships to help get into better arcs versus enemy ships as they need to maneuver to account for the larger ships and the Raider can exploit that. It needs supporting friendly squadrons to help hose down squadrons, as your friendlies can pin down enemy squadrons to keep them in one place and the Raider can hose that arc down with flak while remaining safe from bombers. Unsupported Raiders are underwhelming but properly supported they can really shine.

I can see and have run 2 Raiders at once and they do fine (usually off on each flank). I could imagine running more than that in janky lists (pocket carrier spam?). 1-2 should fit in just fine for most Imperial lists.

They are not good against other ships. Too fragile, short ranged. This is why I don't believe multiples or a fleet based around them will work; this game is ultimately about capital ships, and we have a small ship that is not good against capital ships. That, by definition, cannot be a ship of the line.

I disagree. That combination of blue and black dice in the front arc can get very deadly against other ships. You just need to be very careful, especially against ships that can toss a bunch of dice at you. Staying in the "safe" arcs becomes extremely important in those circumstances, but a Raider camping out in an MC80 front arc can actually make a surprisingly very good showing for itself.

Thinking of the Raider as only an anti-squadron ship is a mistake. The BIG takeaway about the Raider that I've had through running mine about a dozen+ times now is that it's a great force multiplier. It needs supporting friendly ships to help get into better arcs versus enemy ships as they need to maneuver to account for the larger ships and the Raider can exploit that. It needs supporting friendly squadrons to help hose down squadrons, as your friendlies can pin down enemy squadrons to keep them in one place and the Raider can hose that arc down with flak while remaining safe from bombers. Unsupported Raiders are underwhelming but properly supported they can really shine.

I can see and have run 2 Raiders at once and they do fine (usually off on each flank). I could imagine running more than that in janky lists (pocket carrier spam?). 1-2 should fit in just fine for most Imperial lists.

"Force multiplier" pretty much nailed it.

btw I have tried a 4 raider pocket carrier list and opponent just ran in and vaporized the raiders, needing to be in medium range of your squads to make them work as carrier also makes their movement predictable and once you lose 1 or 2 you struggle to push the fighters.

"Force multiplier" pretty much nailed it.

btw I have tried a 4 raider pocket carrier list and opponent just ran in and vaporized the raiders, needing to be in medium range of your squads to make them work as carrier also makes their movement predictable and once you lose 1 or 2 you struggle to push the fighters.

Yeah that was always my concern with the pocket carrier idea - simply wiping out the carriers is a viable idea and the Raiders are pulled in two directions: they want to be close enough to command squadrons but far enough away to avoid taking serious fire.

It could still be doable with Tarkin (squadron tokens) and Boosted Comms, but at that point you're just adding a new layer of jank on top of the old foundation of jank.

It IS however, a necessary fast, small base option to fill a particular tactical need in Imperial lists for which there was previously no solution.

Which particular tactical need is that? And I'm not taking the pee. I have flown them several times and the only need they fulfill is providing more pts for my opponent - oh and my wife thinks it's cute!

Small, fast, maneuverable low-point ship to fill niche roles.

People want the raider to fit into their existing boxes and when that doesn't work they reach for the tissues.

I have seen the raider work as:

- An expendable "blocker" to set up an ISD or "Cap a conga"

- A medium range gun platform to support ISDs (usually with overload pulse)

- Pocket carrier

- Anti-fighter support

- WIDE flank designed to come into engagement mid-battle when targets are more concerned with other things

I have NOT seen the raider do well in traditional Imperial tactics (i.e. run it in and pew pew)

I have NOT seen it do well as an "Imperial CR90"

.....................

Thank you for your detailed reply.

It seems like you have got them to work on occasion! Maybe I should try harder. You've given me food for thought to at least try again.

Thanks

I have had good success with the pocket carrier concept. Helps take the buden off my larger ship so it can concentrate on fighting other ships. They also follow the pattern of starting the game early wide, and then closing towards the mid game.

I have had good success with the pocket carrier concept. Helps take the buden off my larger ship so it can concentrate on fighting other ships. They also follow the pattern of starting the game early wide, and then closing towards the mid game.

Can you explain your build ? I can see it working with a few Raiders with Expanded Hangars and a few token squadorns, paired with larger ships geared to be ship to ship fighters.

But definitely in a support role rather than as the core of a squadron build (after all, we'd be paying more per squadron activations).

It can work for the extra squadrons, but I fear as a mainstay, not really :/

____

I took the time to read again the Raider cards in more detail, and there are a few interesting stuff. However, I'm puzzled by Rapid Reload on a Raider I... I mean, I totally get how interesting because the Raider lacks a Redirect and would like another hull zone as the main target while still keeping the ability to attack. But being so flimsy, I'm not sure it's reliable unless in lists where you have the initiative (so you can activate it last prior to the turn you want it to attack, then activate first and slip away).

Actually now that I picture it, it allows the Raider to move at speed 4 and angle both front and broadside for 3 blues, 3 blacks in 2 shots, then slink away... Ouch, and I thought Dodonna's Pride was nasty With Montferrat, Ordnance Experts and Rapid Reload, that's 61 points of fire support that can probably turn the game at a critical roll if held up behind the main line until the right time.

I took the time to read again the Raider cards in more detail, and there are a few interesting stuff. However, I'm puzzled by Rapid Reload on a Raider I... I mean, I totally get how interesting because the Raider lacks a Redirect and would like another hull zone as the main target while still keeping the ability to attack. But being so flimsy, I'm not sure it's reliable unless in lists where you have the initiative (so you can activate it last prior to the turn you want it to attack, then activate first and slip away).

Actually now that I picture it, it allows the Raider to move at speed 4 and angle both front and broadside for 3 blues, 3 blacks in 2 shots, then slink away... Ouch, and I thought Dodonna's Pride was nasty With Montferrat, Ordnance Experts and Rapid Reload, that's 61 points of fire support that can probably turn the game at a critical roll if held up behind the main line until the right time.

I'm not a big fan of Rapid Reload for the Raider-I. It brings the side arcs from "awful" to "mediocre," which isn't great. I figure if you're going to be throwing your points at something like that, go for the more cost-effective option and snag Expanded Launchers. I took Rapid Reload to be the "we just came up with this upgrade so let's put it in the Raider pack so Imperial players can try it on their Gladiators" upgrade rather than an actual recommendation for use on the Raider.

Is anyone trying the Raider-II? I rarely hear people talking about it. From my limited experience, it shows promise. It's more survivable than the Raider-I, that's for sure (as it's happy staying in medium range).

I don't know man, from playing Corvette heavy lists with initiative, if you hold the Raider back, activate it last to position a double arc shot on a big ship, then activate it first shoot and burn away, 2 blues 2 Black + 2 Blacks 1 Blue has got quite a bit of utility (mark the word utility rather than damage ).

Activating it first will mean that the front arc will deal 3.5 damage on average, followed up by the side arc dealing 2.75. It's both going to inflict some damage and force the opponent to think clearly about its options when it comes to defense tokens. 6.25 damage on a ship that nimble and that quick is pretty good. The opponent is probably going to be forced to exhaust his defense tokens to mitigate that attack, which will make the following attack from the heavy hitters have even more impact (because the tokens will have to be discarded or not used at all). Not only will he have less shields, but also exhausted defense tokens, and because it's only 2 attacks you can really make a dent in the enemy's shielding.

Plus, it's 6.25 damage in 2 attacks, so a good chance the enemy will exhaust multiple tokens. And the blue dice with accuracies allow to push damage through in case your rolls isn't that good, making the tokens of the defending ship a tad less effective against the follow up attack.

Notice how I haven't used a CF command, because I was thinking about using the Nav command to make sure to burn away at speed 4 in the least damaging zone and use the extra angle to either set up an attack next turn if it's possible that your fleet will move to that next target, either set one up for the turn after that. With Montferrat you're getting a free evade at speed 3+, so I can see the Rapid Reload Raider I as a good dive in, brawl and burn away.

Essentially, the Rapid Reload on the Raider offers a free CF command allowing to focus on Nav commands.

Is it more interesting than ACM ? Not sure, but in a list without Screed I'd personally rather have more dice than bank on an elusive critical effect

Definitely not a mainstay, but for 60ish points it's a cool little toy to play with Will it do more damage than Gladiators ? Definitely not, but it has angles that are quite good at dropping 2 hull zones on the target, while the Gladiator is absolutely brutal as a broadside ship.

How about this for a list.

Popcorn Fleet
Author: Lyraeus

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 387/400

Commander: Admiral Motti

Assault Objective: Precision Strike
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Superior Positions

[ flagship ] Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Admiral Motti ( 24 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

Raider-I Class Corvette (44 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Expanded Hangar Bay ( 5 points)

Gladiator I-Class Star Destroyer (56 points)
- Demolisher ( 10 points)
- Ordnance Experts ( 4 points)
- Assault Proton Torpedoes ( 5 points)

1 Major Rhymer ( 16 points)
3 Firespray-31s ( 54 points)
1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)
1 Dengar ( 20 points)
2 TIE Advanced Squadrons ( 24 points)

Fleet created with Armada Warlords