Motti?

Is Raiders greatest use in a fleet not a cheap way to increase the number of activations you have?

Motti?

Is Raiders greatest use in a fleet not a cheap way to increase the number of activations you have?

I have found that my Raiders usually die by 1 point. This is still a 4 activation list with a good deal of squadrons to punish my opponents.

I have tried the pocket carrier idea and honestly I'm not all that big of a fan. Its amusing, but I find that it usually only survives a turn or two in an actual engagement and it has to be relatively close to the action to get off those squadron commands (yes, I know of the theoretical range of Rhymer). And if you are holding him back to use as a carrier, is it worth it to have 50 or so points tied up for a max three squadron activation that throws 2-3 dice? I've found that the Raider needs to be able to maneuver just right to stay alive and to do so it needs nav commands (because its high-speed maneuverability isn't all that good). I've found my greatest success with them being held back but with a target ship in mind. When the time comes, it either A) gets behind the ship if you are against imperials or B) blocks the maneuvering of a Rebel ship for a critical turn. They probably won't survive the engagement, but if they hold something down for a turn and allow a couple front-arc shots from your big boys, then its worth it.

I have tried the pocket carrier idea and honestly I'm not all that big of a fan. Its amusing, but I find that it usually only survives a turn or two in an actual engagement and it has to be relatively close to the action to get off those squadron commands (yes, I know of the theoretical range of Rhymer). And if you are holding him back to use as a carrier, is it worth it to have 50 or so points tied up for a max three squadron activation that throws 2-3 dice? I've found that the Raider needs to be able to maneuver just right to stay alive and to do so it needs nav commands (because its high-speed maneuverability isn't all that good). I've found my greatest success with them being held back but with a target ship in mind. When the time comes, it either A) gets behind the ship if you are against imperials or B) blocks the maneuvering of a Rebel ship for a critical turn. They probably won't survive the engagement, but if they hold something down for a turn and allow a couple front-arc shots from your big boys, then its worth it.

I find my Raiders are not pocket carriers, but are capable of serving that purpose in a pinch. They're suicide ships meant to deal as much damage as I can to soften you up for the ISD and Firesprays to minimize the MOV. Since they'll already be in the area, if they are going to die regardless I can give a Squad command to shove Rhymer or Dengar along in a last-ditch run.

I have tried the pocket carrier idea and honestly I'm not all that big of a fan. Its amusing, but I find that it usually only survives a turn or two in an actual engagement and it has to be relatively close to the action to get off those squadron commands (yes, I know of the theoretical range of Rhymer). And if you are holding him back to use as a carrier, is it worth it to have 50 or so points tied up for a max three squadron activation that throws 2-3 dice? I've found that the Raider needs to be able to maneuver just right to stay alive and to do so it needs nav commands (because its high-speed maneuverability isn't all that good). I've found my greatest success with them being held back but with a target ship in mind. When the time comes, it either A) gets behind the ship if you are against imperials or B) blocks the maneuvering of a Rebel ship for a critical turn. They probably won't survive the engagement, but if they hold something down for a turn and allow a couple front-arc shots from your big boys, then its worth it.

I find my Raiders are not pocket carriers, but are capable of serving that purpose in a pinch. They're suicide ships meant to deal as much damage as I can to soften you up for the ISD and Firesprays to minimize the MOV. Since they'll already be in the area, if they are going to die regardless I can give a Squad command to shove Rhymer or Dengar along in a last-ditch run.

I agree and just this exact situation has bailed me out before in a jam.

I find that if I have them in support of a large ship like the ISD they will tend to follow my squadrons around since I like keeping them close to a ship so it can provide anti squadron support. Playing this way allows me to fun some pretty interesting styles. . .

Took three Raider-Is with Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes, and Tractor Beams today in a list. This was with an Ozzel Gladiator with tricks, and about ten fighters (6 bombers, 3 Firespray, one Advanced). Tabled the first game, last game lost two of them, and the only reason I didn't lose any in the middle game was because my opponent was a clumsy beginner who did not fire optimally.

Raider performance has been overwhelmingly disappointing. It hit me that whenever there's a raider in anyone's arc, they shoot at it, and even pitiful rear-guns on an Assault frigate is enough to take off the front shields of the Raider and set the alarms blaring as only four hull can save you from oblivion. Even the CR-90 could use the redirect again to take shields off of a non-facing arc to give it at least another turns' worth of defense.

The only hope I have for raiders now is two possible builds:

+Pocket carriers: Raider // Expanded Hangars / Yularen - Bank fighter every turn to command 3 fighters while the ship is moving. Basic Raiders still command up to 2.

+Constant damage: Raider-II // SW-7 (Intel officer?) - When in medium range that's 3 auto damage from the front arc no matter what you roll. Stay at medium range, if you close, you're dead.

What does clonetrooper5 have to say. He's having some luck w 3 in the current vassal tourney.

Took three Raider-Is with Ordnance Experts, Assault Proton Torpedoes, and Tractor Beams today in a list. This was with an Ozzel Gladiator with tricks, and about ten fighters (6 bombers, 3 Firespray, one Advanced). Tabled the first game, last game lost two of them, and the only reason I didn't lose any in the middle game was because my opponent was a clumsy beginner who did not fire optimally.

I feel like you're over-upgrading your Raider-Is. That's a lot of points in one fragile ship. Tractor Beams in particular strike me as a very sub-optimal upgrade choice given there's whole fleets they won't work against. When running Ozzel in particular, I've found the points better spent on upgrading the Gladiators or bringing more fighter coverage. A pair of Raider-Is with Ordnance Experts is plenty - their primary job is to work with my Aggressors to flak enemy bombers who get any cheeky ideas. Secondarily, they support the Gladiators versus ships.

Raider performance has been overwhelmingly disappointing. It hit me that whenever there's a raider in anyone's arc, they shoot at it, and even pitiful rear-guns on an Assault frigate is enough to take off the front shields of the Raider and set the alarms blaring as only four hull can save you from oblivion. Even the CR-90 could use the redirect again to take shields off of a non-facing arc to give it at least another turns' worth of defense.

I find that a well-timed Engineering command can improve your life expectancy - you generally want to transfer the 2 shields over from a safe arc rather than regenerate 1 shield in a given arc.

The only hope I have for raiders now is two possible builds:

+Pocket carriers: Raider // Expanded Hangars / Yularen - Bank fighter every turn to command 3 fighters while the ship is moving. Basic Raiders still command up to 2.

+Constant damage: Raider-II // SW-7 (Intel officer?) - When in medium range that's 3 auto damage from the front arc no matter what you roll. Stay at medium range, if you close, you're dead.

I'm not sure the Wulff Yularen addition is worthwhile for the pocket carrier build - at that point you're 17 points from a naked VSD-I with a base squadron value of 3 and substantially better life expectancy (and 3 long-ranged red dice). Squadron 2 for 24 points less than a VSD-I seems a bit more competitive to me.

I've had some success with the Raider-II+SW7 combo. I'm not 100% sold on the SW7s there but it will require additional testing. I don't feel like an Intel Officer is a worthwhile addition there - again, the Raider is cheap and fragile. Its cost-effectiveness worsens the more its upgraded.

I can agree about over-costed sense of the Raiders. The hope was that those upgrades could make the ship more worth it while it's there, but since none of the upgrades are ECMs, it isn't.

I find that a well-timed Engineering command can improve your life expectancy - you generally want to transfer the 2 shields over from a safe arc rather than regenerate 1 shield in a given arc.

This may be true, and I tried it once (and mis-timed it), but when flying this list in that tourney my commands were almost exclusively navigates to make the most out of the movement profiles to the ships, hoping to evade the dangerous arcs. It worked in the last game well enough, only to see the enemy ships move out of blue dice range and once again prove the Raider being as useless as I feared. An engineering command can only move damaged shields from the rear/side arcs to the arc that was just torn down... meaning you have to be comfortable with the current speed you are at in order to trigger that ability. I've found that when the Raider needs that command it needs speed just as well, or risk colliding and making your opponent's job easier.

I'm not sure the Wulff Yularen addition is worthwhile for the pocket carrier build - at that point you're 17 points from a naked VSD-I with a base squadron value of 3 and substantially better life expectancy (and 3 long-ranged red dice). Squadron 2 for 24 points less than a VSD-I seems a bit more competitive to me.

I've had some success with the Raider-II+SW7 combo. I'm not 100% sold on the SW7s there but it will require additional testing. I don't feel like an Intel Officer is a worthwhile addition there - again, the Raider is cheap and fragile. Its cost-effectiveness worsens the more its upgraded.

But what the Raider has and the VSD doesn't is speed 4, with a significantly better movement chart. I look at the pocket carrier(s) as a way to propel Bombers rapidly up the side of the board with attack abilities, and them slingshot them into position with a final command that allows them to attack after they've moved. For VSDs to do this kind of flanking maneuver it exposes their side and rear, and they can't reach position as quickly. It is also more points, and does not have evades to count on.

The idea behind Intel officers is to try doing an Imperial version of a Nebulon-B slaved turret gunline that, for each attack, threatens the brace token. This will force the opponent to choose between absorbing the damage or dumping contain. Even proposing this, though, feels like a lackluster compromise to do a certain thing and not a solid strategy to lean a list on. But I'm struggling to find uses for Raiders, since mini-gladiator play just gets them killed.

@Norsehound : Did you have initiative in these games ? From what you tell, it feels you didn't have it. Having initiative with smaller ships is paramount to their efficiency on the table, especially on ships that are mainly blue/black dice range because they are so position dependent.

You need to have 2 important things to run a small ship list efficiently :

1) Like I said, having the initiative. Even on scarier boats like Demolisher, initiative means getting that frail platform to move and hit rather than melt down by being a sitting duck in the enemy's arc.

2) Activation advantage : having more ships than the opponents, or at least enough that your hand isn't forced in activating a small ship before you want it.

What this allows you to do is a "reverse activation order" tactic". Let's pick a Demolisher in an Imperial list for example. You make sure that your fleet has enough activations that you can ensure to activate your Demolisher last after your target ship has moved (that way you can get both a positioning and a shot off). In the next turn, you activate the Demolisher first so that it can do its damage, then fly off out of harm's way or properly positioned to eat the enemy ship in a next turn. This is exactly why the Demolisher is extremely powerful by the way, it's the fact that it essentially allows you to gain one half of turn on the damage you would have inflicted using this method, which is pretty massive.

Raiders (and CR90s) work the same when they are taken as support for the bigger ships that carry the damage dealing.but need that extra annoying power of the small ships. Stay out of the fight, ready to pounce, then activate last, up your speed to go into arcs of enemies that were previously activated (or that aren't that threatening), then enjoy activating first, doing your thing then flying off before the enemy has had a chance to respond.

I find that a well-timed Engineering command can improve your life expectancy - you generally want to transfer the 2 shields over from a safe arc rather than regenerate 1 shield in a given arc.

This may be true, and I tried it once (and mis-timed it), but when flying this list in that tourney my commands were almost exclusively navigates to make the most out of the movement profiles to the ships, hoping to evade the dangerous arcs. It worked in the last game well enough, only to see the enemy ships move out of blue dice range and once again prove the Raider being as useless as I feared. An engineering command can only move damaged shields from the rear/side arcs to the arc that was just torn down... meaning you have to be comfortable with the current speed you are at in order to trigger that ability. I've found that when the Raider needs that command it needs speed just as well, or risk colliding and making your opponent's job easier.

I find the first turn is often a good time to stash a Navigate token for when you'll need it later. Especially with Ozzel that's basically all you'll need later on (usually around turn 3-4) when you would otherwise need to decide between Engineering and Navigate.

I'm not sure the Wulff Yularen addition is worthwhile for the pocket carrier build - at that point you're 17 points from a naked VSD-I with a base squadron value of 3 and substantially better life expectancy (and 3 long-ranged red dice). Squadron 2 for 24 points less than a VSD-I seems a bit more competitive to me.

I've had some success with the Raider-II+SW7 combo. I'm not 100% sold on the SW7s there but it will require additional testing. I don't feel like an Intel Officer is a worthwhile addition there - again, the Raider is cheap and fragile. Its cost-effectiveness worsens the more its upgraded.

But what the Raider has and the VSD doesn't is speed 4, with a significantly better movement chart. I look at the pocket carrier(s) as a way to propel Bombers rapidly up the side of the board with attack abilities, and them slingshot them into position with a final command that allows them to attack after they've moved. For VSDs to do this kind of flanking maneuver it exposes their side and rear, and they can't reach position as quickly. It is also more points, and does not have evades to count on.

The problem is that the speed won't help you much if you propel yourself into a death trap and it's difficult to make the Raider-I's short-range profile work with the Squadron command role at the same time. I'd much prefer a Raider-II in the same kind of role and keeping it as cheap as possible after that (likely just Expanded Hangar Bays as an upgrade).

Conversely, a VSD-I with Boosted Comms can command similarly out-there bombers while remaining much more durable.

The idea behind Intel officers is to try doing an Imperial version of a Nebulon-B slaved turret gunline that, for each attack, threatens the brace token. This will force the opponent to choose between absorbing the damage or dumping contain. Even proposing this, though, feels like a lackluster compromise to do a certain thing and not a solid strategy to lean a list on. But I'm struggling to find uses for Raiders, since mini-gladiator play just gets them killed.

Given the Nebulon-Bs specialize in long range sniping and the Raider-IIs are more mid-ranged skirmishers I'm not really sure they're comparable ships in that regard. It's difficult to get enough Raiders on one target due to their shorter range.

I find that Raider-I with ordinance expert, maybe rapid reload or assault concussion missile, in an Ozzel fleet work decently, given I had the Initiative in most of those game which is a tremendous help. The trick is, you need to be able to maneuver and properly fly these ship, in order to position yourself for a good double arc and then zip away, you might get one or two good turn of shooting and don't underestimate the power of Concentrate fire on those turn another black dice that can be rerolled is a nice increase in firepower. I admit that I find them more tricky to use as second player as you need to guess where the other player will want to move and the shoots might not be optimal, or you often have to set more then one "good shoot" with multiple ship so you will still make one of them.

Also any missions that limits (or help you predict) your opponent movement option, especially as second player, will really help get the most out of these ship. But honestly I have found them brutal flanker especially when those blue dice give you some accuracy result. I personally really like them, pondering getting a third one eventually just for giggles and wacky build.

Hello guys ! (Sorry for derailing but I didn't really want to make a new thread talking about the Raiders)

I come to you for advice Being a primarily Rebel player for Wave 1, and being interested in flying under the Imperial Navy for a while, I'd love to get my hands on some Wave 2 content (because I only own Wave 1, the Core Set and one of each expansions for now). So right now my collection of Imperial ships is limited to 2 Victories and 1 Raider.

Problem is, money is a bit tight these days and I won't be able to afford an ISD until a few weeks/months. As a Rebel, I've come to love flying the small and fast ships and maneuvering around and I really love the design of the Imperial Raider. I also want more versatility in my Imperial Fleet because I feel 2 Vics and 1 Glad isn't enough for 400 points (compared to even the Wave 1 Rebel lists I can field with 5 ships, I don't think it will survive) so even though Rogues and Villains are cool, I'll pass for now.

My question was, would you guys think a 400 points list with Screed, 2 VSDs, a Gladiator and a Raider could work ? Obviously, the Raider is going to be in a support role for the fleet and the Victories will probably help manage a couple of squadrons. But I'm really amazed by the potential this little bugger can have against fighters or other ships.

It could work. All depends on the Tactics used.

A 3 VSD list with tons of squadrons gained second place at a tournament

I too have been using Raider Is with Ordnance Experts plus a title. Was originally using two of them (one for each title), but I've pared it down to just the Impetuous. With Ordance Experts plus Screed, the Raider can output a very high damage for such a low cost. Tonight I hit Home One for 6 damage in one attack, and a 3 or so more with my side arc. Would have gotten away wiith it too, had it not been for a pesky A-Wing.

I've had some difficulty positioning it to shred squadrons, but that's due to lack of experience. When I have postioned properly, three attacks at 2 black dice each is disgusting.

Overall,I think one is definitely worth taking. I would like to try more with Screed at some point. Get them positioned properly and they will trade up with larger and more expensive ships.

It could work. All depends on the Tactics used.

A 3 VSD list with tons of squadrons gained second place at a tournament

The idea was to play it in a list where I have the initiative as an annoying ACM boat and Ordnance experts without any titles (the Victories will take care of the squadron management), in a very hit and run style.

The idea was : a turn before the attack, I play the Raider last with a Nav command to set it up for a double arc shot on a bigger ship, I first get the side arc shot with the blue/black to proc Screed, then I unload the front (Ordnance experts to mitigate the blank results), then zip away and Repair. Followed by a Demolisher with ACM and Engine Tech's for a punishing attack (he can hang back out of return fire range until the time is right).

The goal will be to hit the zone where I'll hit with the next ships so that both side arcs where they could redirect will have more trouble tanking the damage from another round of ACM.

Still theorycrafting at this point though.