I've been having a discussion with someone regarding the new Huge Ship ruling on Free Actions that is included in the Gozanti Rulebook - and I'm really struggling to make my point understood.

Huge Ships cannot perform Free Actions unless they are equipped with an upgrade card that allows them to, such as the Automated Protocols upgrade card.

Now the meaning of this seems crystal clear to me.

Huge Ships still may not perform Free Actions unless they are equipped with an upgrade card that gives explicit permission for that Huge Ship to perform a Free Action.

The counter argument is that any upgrade card that can be equipped by a Huge Ship that instructs you to perform a Free Action (i.e Leebo) counts as an upgrade that allows you to perform a free action.

Is there a better way I can explain this?

Do as the card says

Not what it doesn't

Don't see what's so hard to comprehend

Don't see what's so hard to comprehend

Me neither - but there's clearly a failure of communication somewhere down the line, so I'm wondering if there is a way I can make it clearer

I've not read the new FAQ, but from the quoted part it is far from crystal clear to me either. I'm kind of inclined to agrea with the counter argument (as far as RAW goes).

"The counter argument is that any upgrade card that can be equipped by a Huge Ship that instructs you to perform a Free Action (i.e Leebo) counts as an upgrade that allows you to perform a free action."

But I would guess the intent is not that. That guess is based on the fact that it was not allowed befor this FAQ and the only reason to have it added seems to be that new card that just would not work without some kind of exception added.

I've not read the new FAQ, but from the quoted part it is far from crystal clear to me either. I'm kind of inclined to agrea with the counter argument (as far as RAW goes).

"The counter argument is that any upgrade card that can be equipped by a Huge Ship that instructs you to perform a Free Action (i.e Leebo) counts as an upgrade that allows you to perform a free action."

But I would guess the intent is not that. That guess is based on the fact that it was not allowed befor this FAQ and the only reason to have it added seems to be that new card that just would not work without some kind of exception added.

The key word to me is "allows" - Leebo (for example) says nothing about allowing ships that were previously barred from performing free actions from performing a free action - it's merely an instruction to take one - not permission to take one if you were previously barred from doing so

Yeah I have to say that RAW he's right. At least based on the quoted text, is there other text there that you didn't post?

Because RAW that would allow any upgrade you can legally put on a Huge ship, that allows a free action would be legal for that ship.

Clearly this wouldn't apply to free actions given by other ships. So for example, using Squad Leader won't allow you to give a Raider a free action.

But there is no reason per that rules you can't put Lebo on a CR-90 and perform a free boost action. That does beg the question of if a huge ship can boost at all. There's nothing in the rules that says they can't, but there's also no rules that covers how a huge ship can boost and since they don't have nubs in the front... you could argue that huge ships can't.

The key word to me is "allows"

The upgrade in question doesn't use the word Allows either.

Just as above poster says

It clearly states in the huge ship rules that they cannot perform free action

The automated Astromech is allowing you to do a free action for that one specific action.

Basically giving huge ships a little better action economy to help them survive.

It doesn't over write the rules in the huge ship.

Now if the card stated "allows you to take any free action" then leebo would work

In this case it is allowing you to do a free reinforced or recover action at the cost of spending one energy

Again this is pretty crystal clear to me. Don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

The rule still stands

Huge ships cannot perform free actions.

Automated Astromech "allows" it to do one of two.

It's a minor bypass to help them live just a little longer.

I know many a games I had to make a very tough choice with actions on my huge ships.

Sooc looking forward to this card

Edit

OK just looked at the card and that's correct it doesn't say allow

However the catching believe is still on the card.

Huge ships cannot perform free actions

The cardin question is allowing it at the cost of 1 energy and one 1 out of 2 actions

The key word to me is "allows"

The upgrade in question doesn't use the word Allows either.

Come to think about it you're right - the permission granted by AP is implicit rather than explicit - AP is Huge Ship only and deals with actions and mechanics that only Huge Ships can use.

So in fact RAW says that there are currently NO cards that allow huge ships to perform Free Actions - not even Automated Protocols

So your opponent believe that a huge ship can take any free action

Even though it clearly states it can't in the rulebook?

All this upgrade does is allow you to get a little extra action economy to help the thing survive.

Rather than include the card they could have just rewritten the rules to allow huge ships to take free action

Just too many ways this would be broken if it could take any action

Huge Ships cannot be granted free actions from external sources, only from upgrade cards they have equipped.

but it doesn't necessarily preclude any other card that instructs you to perform a free action.

No it doesn't. But as it stands there are few upgrades huge ships can take that allow free actions. Most of which are not allowed by huge ships or have no effect.

For example you could put Ysanne Isard on a Raider, and you could perform the free Evade action, and then discard the evade token, because Huge ships can't have evade tokens. Same goes for Lebo, huge ships can't boost so even though they could take the free action that doesn't mean they can perform the boost.

But any future update that allows a free action would be legal on huge ships, if it's a legal upgrade.

The thing is, a huge ship can perform any free action on a upgrade on that ship but that doesn't mean the action itself is legal and/or allowed, or has any effect.

It clearly states in the huge ship rules that they cannot perform free action

The automated Astromech is allowing you to do a free action for that one specific action.

That is not what the rules say any longer. What they say is that a huge ship can not perform a free action granted to it by another ships upgrade or ability.

So yes in theory it could perform an evade action from Isard, or a boost from Lebo, however neither of those actions actually work on huge ships.

What they still can't do however is perform a free action given to it by some other ship. So squad leader won't do anything.

Nevermind, just being pedantic. Not worth the discussion.

If automated protocols "allows them to" (the "to" being "perform free actions") then they are allowed to perform free actions.

Maybe I can't see past the clear RAI. But to me that isn't what it says at all. I think it's clear that the to is referring to the free actions on the upgrade card itself.

Have they added any language expressly forbidding huge ships from boosting?

No, but here's the rules for boosting.

2. Set the maneuver template between the ship’s front guides.

3. Move the ship to the opposite end of the template and slide the rear guides of the ship into the template.

Since Huge ships don't have front or rear guides you can't actually do these steps, so the rest sorts of falls apart.

Maybe I can't see past the clear RAI. But to me that isn't what it says at all. I think it's clear that the to is referring to the free actions on the upgrade card itself.

Yeah, the RAI is so blazingly obvious in this case. The more I think about it, the more I think Funklton is correct in post #9 and the RAW is that AP still doesn't actually work. Until they reword this rule to actually function it will just have to be another case like turret targeting. We all know how it is supposed to work, so just do that.

Since Huge ships don't have front or rear guides you can't actually do these steps, so the rest sorts of falls apart.

So there really does need to be a rule stating that huge ships can't boost or barrel roll. That and fixing the wording on free actions solves all the problems.

Just as an aside - it's funny how the Leebo crew card keeps throwing spanners in the works - both figuratively in terms of how his crew card works (dishing out ion tokens to the ship he's on) - and literally in his effect on certain game mechanics (like how he also messes with ion mechanics under certain circumstances)

He is, as the only upgrade card that both grants a free action, and can potentially be equipped by a huge ship, the only upgrade card that causes any confusion with the new ruling that would have any effect on the game - without him, any discussion of RAW vs RAI would be entirely academic.

What is even more ironic is that the wording on Leebo's card to make the boost a Free Action was quire likely put there deliberately in the first place to stop him from being used on Huge Ships

Stoopid bloody Leebo!

Just as an aside - it's funny how the Leebo crew card keeps throwing spanners in the works - both figuratively in terms of how his crew card works (dishing out ion tokens to the ship he's on) - and literally in his effect on certain game mechanics (like how he also messes with ion mechanics under certain circumstances)

He is, as the only upgrade card that both grants a free action, and can potentially be equipped by a huge ship, the only upgrade card that causes any confusion with the new ruling that would have any effect on the game - without him, any discussion of RAW vs RAI would be entirely academic.

What is even more ironic is that the wording on Leebo's card to make the boost a Free Action was quire likely put there deliberately in the first place to stop him from being used on Huge Ships

Stoopid bloody Leebo!

He does seem to be the master of frying things with his hydro-spanner.

A ship with Leebo could use engine booster to do a 1 straight, do their maneuver, then gain a free boost from Leebo. That seems like a double boost scenario.

And can you imagine trying to do the boost as written with the CR-90!

"Ok, I put down the 1 forward template, I then pick up my Tantive and move its back base nubs to the other end of the template. Ok, how many ships did I just overlap?...

This rule is going to cause all sorts of confusion.

I think I'll send it in via e-mail to get an official-unoffical response so we can patch it for now.

Besides, I haven't e-mailed Frank in some time. I'm starting to miss the guy...

Question I submitted:

The new rule, in the Gozanti expansion pack, that allows free actions to be used by an EPIC ship if they have an upgrade card that allows them to perform a free action (such as Automated Protocols) is causing confusion with regards to Leebo.

The back of my Xwing Minaturess Rules Reference, under List of Actions, says to take the 1 straight or 1 bank templates and "move foreward using the selected template"

The Epic ship rules with m Rebel transport say that it uses a special template instead of the templates in the core set.

Allowing the epic ship to use epic 1 banks and epic 1 straights seems fine to me, though it's a 0 energy maneuver that costs an energy from ionization.

A ship with Leebo could use engine booster to do a 1 straight, do their maneuver, then gain a free boost from Leebo. That seems like a double boost scenario.

And can you imagine trying to do the boost as written with the CR-90!

"Ok, I put down the 1 forward template, I then pick up my Tantive and move its back base nubs to the other end of the template. Ok, how many ships did I just overlap?...

This rule is going to cause all sorts of confusion.

I think I'll send it in via e-mail to get an official-unoffical response so we can patch it for now.

Besides, I haven't e-mailed Frank in some time. I'm starting to miss the guy...

You can't overlap anything when you boost, so...

Yeah I have to say that RAW he's right. At least based on the quoted text, is there other text there that you didn't post?

Because RAW that would allow any upgrade you can legally put on a Huge ship, that allows a free action would be legal for that ship.

Clearly this wouldn't apply to free actions given by other ships. So for example, using Squad Leader won't allow you to give a Raider a free action.

But there is no reason per that rules you can't put Lebo on a CR-90 and perform a free boost action. That does beg the question of if a huge ship can boost at all. There's nothing in the rules that says they can't, but there's also no rules that covers how a huge ship can boost and since they don't have nubs in the front... you could argue that huge ships can't.

Actually those huge ship bases do have nubs on them. The huge ship peg won't fit on a normal large base. So players that use those nice looking huge ship pegs for their large base ships are using a huge ship base also. And they definitely have nubs.

A ship with Leebo could use engine booster to do a 1 straight, do their maneuver, then gain a free boost from Leebo. That seems like a double boost scenario.

And can you imagine trying to do the boost as written with the CR-90!

"Ok, I put down the 1 forward template, I then pick up my Tantive and move its back base nubs to the other end of the template. Ok, how many ships did I just overlap?...

This rule is going to cause all sorts of confusion.

I think I'll send it in via e-mail to get an official-unoffical response so we can patch it for now.

Besides, I haven't e-mailed Frank in some time. I'm starting to miss the guy...

You can't overlap anything when you boost, so...

I was aware of that but it is more of the distance covered that would be game breaking. I was aiming more for ridicto ad absurdum than veracity.

Apparently I haven't looked at my epic ships lately so I forgot they have nubs. My bad.

Apparently I haven't looked at my epic ships lately so I forgot they have nubs. My bad.

You should be very, very ashamed of yourself. Go to your room and think about what you've done