But then there is a third group of gamer. They want to play in a game shop, and expect stores to hold events and run tournaments. But they buy everything online because it's cheaper and balk at the idea of paying event fees unless that fee goes right back into event prizing. They expect stores to support the game, but do nothing to support the store. A store charges a fee for an event that would actually make the event profitable for the store and they are immediately online complaining about the fee, oh but they still expect the store to keep running events. They want the service provided by a game shop, but they refuse to pay for that service.

Then there's a fourth group. They want to play in a game shop but don't always have time on the nights people show up there, and expect stores to hold events and run tournaments because those are easier to schedule for in advanced with guaranteed participants in attendance. But they buy everything online because it's cheaper. They gladly pay event fees knowing the store needs compensation for holding those events. They even try to buy something small while at store events even if the event is a 1-off and they never expect to return to that location.

I wonder if it's dawned on anybody that this probably affects a lot more people that don't buy online, and who won't be coming here to leverage their opinions against the vocal minority because the Internet just isn't a thing for them.

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I wonder if it's dawned on anybody that this probably affects a lot more people that don't buy online, and who won't be coming here to leverage their opinions against the vocal minority because the Internet just isn't a thing for them.

Your talking about people in the USA? UH..... unless your homesteading in the woods 50 miles from civilization EVERYONE and I really mean EVERYONE has a computer with internet or a cell/smart phone with internet. The announcement is for Asmodee North America were everyone has some form of internet connection or access to it.

After reviewing this even further some on boardgame geek have commented on the likely hood of Asmodee cutting back on many FFG titles to focus on only big sellers. This is actually the most dreadful thing of the whole proposition. FFG is putting out some great games and I would really be bummed if they dumped most of them to just do x wing. Armada is going to get dumped if this is the case for sure.

FFG is probably my favorite game publisher. But if Asmodee dumps 90% of their titles it will destroy FFG for me.

Honestly, with all the stuff already released for Armada I'd be happy for it to be discontinued soon. I've got what I need, I don't want it diluted by a whole bunch of EU ships that no one has ever heard of.

stuff

I don't think you quite grasp my point. It's not about who has access to the Internet, it's about who bothers to use it for shopping and forum posting. Everyone here has an online presence, so it makes sense that a lot of us would also complain about Internet commerce. There's clearly a high degree of correlation between people who feel comfortable making their opinions known on a forum, and people who are comfortable with (or preferential toward) making their purchases online. It seems that a lot of those people are also in the habit of confusing themselves for majority opinion holders when they are, in fact, merely part of a vocal minority.

What about the people who aren't such rabid fans that they feel the need to come online and share their opinions, though? Don't you suppose there are a lot of Star Wars fans, and X-Wing fans, who are content to live out their dogfighting fantasies in real space? Maybe not all of them feel the same way about FFG's new distribution model as people here do. Maybe, just maybe, a lot of them actually hold opinions contrary to yours.

Sure, you pay more for your ship. But its not just the ship you're buying. You're buying into a community of infinitely different people who's interests happen to align in this one specific hobby, and that's amazing. I've met people who work on jet liners, law enforcement, other types of retail, fast food. Old people, young people, parents looking to pass on the wonder they experienced when they first saw Star Wars to their children. You just don't get that if its just you and a buddy or two playing at home (not to devalue your experience there), and it really is a shame if your LGS isn't up to par or is nonexistent. I really feel like you're missing out, so don't be so quick to dismiss the value that comes with paying the extra few dollars at the LGS.

That's fine if this is your opinion but manipulating a market to prop up this kind of cultural ideal is wrong-headed. Either the marketplace will support a store or it won't. Just sell me the product and let me figure out how to use it. I didn't buy the game because of some 'culture' I wanted to get into. I bought it because it is fun to play with my friends. Forcing me to prop up failing businesses doesn't encourage me to continue supporting the product.

I might not be speaking for you here, but what makes this game interesting to me is the community of players I get to see on game night and the vast difference of ideas each brings into every game, rather than the $45 of shaped plastic that I'm pushing around the table.

Nope. Definitely the plastic. That, and the rules text on the cardboard.

I don't know about you, but my basement can't fit 20 people, and I think it unrealistic to try and co-ordinate that kind of get together outside of an LGS.

I don't need twenty people. I need two.

Do you think a gaming cafe will have the space, manpower, or will to run an event like an X-Wing tourney?

Yes. They're usually actually a fair bit bigger than the average cramped game shop with a back room.

Short version is that this game shop communities are only a part of the market for X-Wing: the way you do things is only one of countless ways. It's a very big game. This forum only scratches the surface.

What about the people who aren't such rabid fans that they feel the need to come online and share their opinions, though? Don't you suppose there are a lot of Star Wars fans, and X-Wing fans, who are content to live out their dogfighting fantasies in real space? Maybe not all of them feel the same way about FFG's new distribution model as people here do. Maybe, just maybe, a lot of them actually hold opinions contrary to yours.

I'd wager the majority neither know nor care and if they don't use any online shops hit by this probably will never notice. This is only causing contention amongst the forumgoers, and it's the divide between people who buy their stuff online and are unhappy that they may no longer be able to, and people who both don't and are part of this group who believes others have a duty to subsidise their game shops.

I'd say it's more like a divide between the people who are cranky that they'll be getting maybe a 10% discount instead of 40% and the people who either don't care or are willing to pay a little extra cash to support the social aspect of the hobby.

WonderWAAAGH, on 23 Dec 2015 - 4:44 PM, said:

Tokyogriz, on 23 Dec 2015 - 4:01 PM, said:

stuff

I don't think you quite grasp my point. It's not about who has access to the Internet, it's about who bothers to use it for shopping and forum posting. Everyone here has an online presence, so it makes sense that a lot of us would also complain about Internet commerce. There's clearly a high degree of correlation between people who feel comfortable making their opinions known on a forum, and people who are comfortable with (or preferential toward) making their purchases online. It seems that a lot of those people are also in the habit of confusing themselves for majority opinion holders when they are, in fact, merely part of a vocal minority.

What about the people who aren't such rabid fans that they feel the need to come online and share their opinions, though? Don't you suppose there are a lot of Star Wars fans, and X-Wing fans, who are content to live out their dogfighting fantasies in real space? Maybe not all of them feel the same way about FFG's new distribution model as people here do. Maybe, just maybe, a lot of them actually hold opinions contrary to yours.

I never stated I am a voice for a majority. At the same time neither are you. I can speak for myself and those close to me who I interact with. At the next level go to https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/49101/asmodee-clarifies-its-changes-2016-online-sales-wi to see how people who are in the board game hobby feel about this issue.

You can make the case in any issue in life there is a silent majority that doesn't agree with someone who differs from your view.

I'd say it's more like a divide between the people who are cranky that they'll be getting maybe a 10% discount instead of 40% and the people who either don't care or are willing to pay a little extra cash to support the social aspect of the hobby.

Who are you to tell me were to shop?

I'd say it's more like a divide between the people who are cranky that they'll be getting maybe a 10% discount instead of 40% and the people who either don't care or are willing to pay a little extra cash to support the social aspect of the hobby.

Who are you to tell me were to shop?

Who are you to tell people where to play?

So Asmodee says, no more discounts, and you say, well as long as production costs don't go up. So where does the extra cash go? Where do you think let's not be barbie dolls here. You know, clothing designers argued that their business model of selling high volumes at low prices seemed very good on paper. Even better when all those t-shirts could just sit in a warehouse until you bought them with your mouse clicker! Why pay another poor brown person to drive a truck around when you can just sell them online? Oh, and look at all the jobs we created for those poor hapless minorities too hey? I'm sure being a pesticide sprayer in a third world country is a great job. Maybe even good enough that you could afford an X-Wing for 30% off. Fast Fashion proved that the market can sustain a $5 disposable T-Shirt. How well did that turn out?

It actually turned out really well. NPR did an entire story on the subject where they ordered multiple T-Shirts and then followed the entire chain of manufacture.

'Cheap' clothing labour has improved the economy of multiple developing countries. Most of these develop to the point where their wages rise and the business moves to another country. This has happened so many times that dozens of countries have had a permanent boost to their economy that doesn't disappear once the t-shirt company moves on.

It's a great example of how consumerism in the developed world is seriously assisting economic improvement in the '3rd world'.

Link: http://www.npr.org/series/248799434/planet-moneys-t-shirt-project

That is exactly the kind of rhetoric that sounds really nice when you say it, but in reality? Well lets ask Latin America how they fared with Americanization...

WonderWAAAGH, on 23 Dec 2015 - 5:58 PM, said:

Tokyogriz, on 23 Dec 2015 - 5:57 PM, said:

WonderWAAAGH, on 23 Dec 2015 - 5:56 PM, said:

I'd say it's more like a divide between the people who are cranky that they'll be getting maybe a 10% discount instead of 40% and the people who either don't care or are willing to pay a little extra cash to support the social aspect of the hobby.

Who are you to tell me were to shop?

Who are you to tell people where to play?

None of this has to do with were to play. The entire issue is about purchasing. Are you mentally a bit dull or just playing devils advocate?

Like.. what the hell did y'all do before 30% discounts for no reason were a thing? Pay full price or just cry a lot?

Why do you deserve Imp Aces for $10?

It's like fast fashion all over again. Next it'll be kids in Bangladesh getting fingers cut off in the x-wing stamp so we can have disposable $5 minis.

Give your heads a shake.

Oh, the neverending shame of the internet today. Everyone wants to jump in and press the easy-mode entitlement button any time someone they disagree with complains on the internet. Learn to compose some independent thoughts and put together an actual case in favor of your argument.

I don't deserve Imperial Aces for bargain prices. Never said I did. But if the market has successfully supported providing us ships with discount pricing, why should the price of the end product suddenly go up when the cost to manufacture and distribute (presumably) remains unchanged?

I think also, that what you might call "bargain prices" in your other post, I call "the real price". If FFG sells to Coolstuff and makes a profit, and Coolstuff sells it to me for profit - then that is the price the market can successfully support - the real price as far as I am concerned. There is a model that provides the ships to me, at lower prices, with companies making a profit. MSRP and whatever model Asmodee is fixing up is just creating a fictitious value. And if you can't compete in with that logistics/scale - sorry, you can't compete and you'd better find something people are willing to pay for.

As for the Chinese children assembling these toys, well Asmodee hasn't said they would do anything for them with all this extra money, have they? But if they did plan to increase wages or improve working conditions, well that would represent an actual increase in the cost to manufacture and distribute the product, and you wouldn't hear me complaining. The real actual cost of the product would have changed. They didn't just decide a $5 product should cost $8, it actually costs $8. They are entitled to just raise prices if they wish, of course, just as I am entitled to not like it if I wish.

I don't understand how people do not feel insulted when a company takes the exact same product, artificially makes it cost more to the consumer, and then tells them "Look at this great thing we did!".

As some-one else has pointed out. Except in the cases of large multinationals selling for less than cost to squeeze out the smaller competition. Because, once they do that, they can charge more in the long run.

Since the major argument for FFG detractors seems to be "I play at home, why should I subsidize an LGS?" I'd say it has everything to do with where we play.

Local stores are good for gaming. They expose people to the brand, which creates more players, which in turn allows the brand to grow. FFG knows this, and so do sensible consumers. That doesn't make your opinions invalid, it just means that they aren't any more important than everyone else's. Shop where you want to shop, and play where you want to play. There's nothing wrong with not wanting to subsidize the LGS experience, just like there's nothing wrong with not wanting to subsidize basement-dwelling and kitchen table X-Wing. The sword cuts both ways.

You simply have not right to dictate were I or ANYONE else must play or purchase.

On top of that the entire Asmodee move is to make more money for themselves. Only a fool would think otherwise.

This is basically going to cripple the hobby for me and my argentinian community, MM in general and Discount games in my particular case, have been feeding our gaming needs since the very begining, we have no brick and mortar stores, the only store we have charges tyraniccal 50% or more overprice on any product that enters the country, a 15 dollars ship may very well end up costing 30 o more dollars.

Worst part is I was starting a small gaming groups, and i really really hoped we could get return to hoth to bolster a new campaing for imperial assault, now it seems that hope is lost

This is exactly what happens here in Brazil as well. It is already a very expensive hobby for us (and other south americans, I would wager). We already struggle to get 10-12 people to play monthly tournaments here, with game nights every 2 weeks or so. With even more stones being cast in our path, we might as well just turn around and give up.

This is basically going to cripple the hobby for me and my argentinian community, MM in general and Discount games in my particular case, have been feeding our gaming needs since the very begining, we have no brick and mortar stores, the only store we have charges tyraniccal 50% or more overprice on any product that enters the country, a 15 dollars ship may very well end up costing 30 o more dollars.

Worst part is I was starting a small gaming groups, and i really really hoped we could get return to hoth to bolster a new campaing for imperial assault, now it seems that hope is lost

This is exactly what happens here in Brazil as well. It is already a very expensive hobby for us (and other south americans, I would wager). We already struggle to get 10-12 people to play monthly tournaments here, with game nights every 2 weeks or so. With even more stones being cast in our path, we might as well just turn around and give up.

According to some fanboys here you MUST subsidies their local game stores. Game stores were more often than not no decent person wants to spend any time.

Too bad about your losing out but at least WonderWAAAAH and company are happy.

But again, Asmodee doesn't care about stores, its bottom line profit margins that matter.

It might be time to try some decaf and take a break, friend.

Look guys, of course ANA is set to make money out of this change. They would be a foolish company to make a decision that would make them less money. That does not make it the wrong decision. They need to maximize profits and look at the long term viability of their product. Online retailers discounting their product at a constant 30-40% is not good for their product. Already, players talk about this as a price increase. Only, it isn't. The MSRP is the same. The fact that many posters are seeing the "price" of their product as so far below MSRP is a problem. FFG has to be wary of the devaluation of their product lines. This change offers them the opportunity to make more money off of their sales to distributors and retailers and prevent devaluation of their product. This is important both for short term financial gains and long term viability.

Most game stores are not going to go out of business from MM or CSI alone. While it is true that many game store owners are not great businessmen, this also accounts for the high failure rate of hobby stores. The guys that don't adapt or have any business sense already don't last long. Hobby stores will however stop carrying FFG products if they don't sell enough product at or near MSRP. The simple reality of the retail business model is that their prices from distributors are based on being able to sell the product at or near MSRP. If they can't get the customer base to purchase those products, they won't carry them. That means they are far less likely to bring in OP kits or run events. This means less people seeing the game and picking it up. That is less people telling their friends, even if that friend busy everything online. You don't have to believe hobby stores are important. The reality is that companies like FFG, and Wizkids recognize that the lion's share of their sales (normally a figure of about 90%) is from hobby stores. They simply cannot afford to have hobby stores stop supporting their lines due to a large devaluation of the product through online sources. ANA is presenting this as protecting hobby stores. That is partially true. It is also protecting ANA from hobby stores declining to carry or support their product (at least in any meaningful numbers or way) in their stores.

You simply have not right to dictate were I or ANYONE else must play or purchase.

On top of that the entire Asmodee move is to make more money for themselves. Only a fool would think otherwise.

Nobody is telling you where to play or buy things. FFG/Asmodee is giving you a nudge towards local places but they aren't telling you that you can't buy online. I understand that you don't want the prices to go up but stop taking this like some sort of court order telling you what to do.

I suppose a store owner might impose a "table fee" if he knew you bought all your stuff online but I'm pretty sure you don't play at an LGS so that doesn't really matter. My point is that neither FFG/Asmodee or anyone on this forum is telling you that you have to buy X-Wing at certain places.

FWIW CSI just reduced their discount on wave 8 products to 25%. Sign of things to come? Getting ready for a Jan 1 MAP change?

Look guys, of course ANA is set to make money out of this change. They would be a foolish company to make a decision that would make them less money.

Companies make decisions that cost them money all the time. Doesn't make them foolish, just means they're operating with imperfect information. You know, like everyone else in the world.

And a quick recap of the thread so far for those of you who can't be bothered to read the full thing.

1. The thread has begun to split into three distinct camps; the Guardians of Gaming Stores (GGS), the Internet Commerce Alliance (ICC) and the No Monkeys Here (NMH).

2. Each of the factions, with the exception of NMH, are becoming increasingly entrenched in their respective opinions. Their positions thus far are -

GGS - Asmodee/FFG are causing the sky to fall down and rightfully saving the hallowed gaming stores from the online shopping demon.

ICC - Asmodee/FFG are causing the sky to fall down and the right to ludicrous internet pricing is being denied to the consumer.

NMH - Will buy the models regardless, are looking for beer and games of X-Wing, and are willing to loan their copy of Palpatine to the highest bidder.

3. Hyperbole, conjecture and speculation are running riot. This is not unexpected as this is the interwebs.

I think that about captures it.

Cheers

Baaa

I don't see why you guys are dancing around the bonfire waving your panties, prices will be going up in your LGS too.