Well, you don't have to stick up for your FLGS. Asmodee/FFG will do it for you. .

See the paragraph I edited in. It might be nice for LGS, but how many times do we have to see this same schtick to realize it isn't about helping the LGS at all? They want to increase profit. This is a way for them to do so with some spin to make it look better.

Is there some clause that states they will increase their wholesale price?

From what I've seen the only change is that they are going to prevent online re-sellers from undercutting FLGS. That doesn't affect the price-per-unit FFG is making at all.

Well, you don't have to stick up for your FLGS. Asmodee/FFG will do it for you. .

See the paragraph I edited in. It might be nice for LGS, but how many times do we have to see this same schtick to realize it isn't about helping the LGS at all? They want to increase profit. This is a way for them to do so with some spin to make it look better.

Is there some clause that states they will increase their wholesale price?

From what I've seen the only change is that they are going to prevent online re-sellers from undercutting FLGS. That doesn't affect the price-per-unit FFG is making at all.

I have been thinking this is true myself. In which case FFG would actually be assuming greater risk, in that as steep discounters disappear, average prices will go up, which means total sales will go down. Basic supply/demand laws at work.

So we may be wrong, as I can't imagine FFG making a change that introduces only risk to their business. Thus I expect they are actually raising their price to distributors by a fraction.

But I don't know. Me am engineer. Me have crayon. Me make drawing. What am economics again?

That's part of the original announcement, going away from a one size fits all distribution scheme to specific channel schemes, with differing T's & C's and very likely differing wholesale costs.

So really, nobody knows anything about the profit motive/business model behind this decision.

I guess people really just like to tell themselves whatever story is necessary to make them the victims of injustice. Especially when their plastic spaceships become more expensive.

FFG's always been about players and the community. They recognize that in the long run that's how gaming becomes great, not by dumping a bunch of inventory cheaply. If everyone gets their plastic online but has nowhere to play with anyone, why would they continue buying it? Further, why not just use Vassal exclusively and not buy any product at all if you're not going to face-to-face with any other players? On the other hand, if local stores are the go-to place to get the product, they'll want to do what they can to bring players in both to play and buy.

I dunno, call me an optimist, but this aligns with FFG's philosophy from my perspective. I'm aware that I may have more disposable cash than the next guy, but I'm also aware that an actual player and tournament/event base is necessary for the life of a game.

Call this a rabbit trail if you must...

But the first time I wandered into a LGS to play X-wing with some strangers from a Facebook group, I asked who was picking up the table rental fee. I just naturally assumed such a charge was necessary for the business model of such a place.

I would gladly drop a couple dollars for table fees. Just saying.

Call this a rabbit trail if you must...

But the first time I wandered into a LGS to play X-wing with some strangers from a Facebook group, I asked who was picking up the table rental fee. I just naturally assumed such a charge was necessary for the business model of such a place.

I would gladly drop a couple dollars for table fees. Just saying.

My FLGC operates under this model; everyone pays a moderate cover charge (about the cost of a good sandwich) to play for 3 hours at a time (or in the case of X wing club evenings, all evening), which charge is lower if you're ordering food/drinks, and lower again if you're doing so at off-peak times (i.e. weekdays before 5). They also offer minor discounts to RRP for games. Seems like a solid business model, but only if you have enough local gamers to support it. It also helps to have an absolutely MASSIVE library of games to play, which I'm presuming are or were the personal property of one of the owners.

I find it hard to believe that people who don't want to pay "only" 10-20% off are willing to pay for a space to play in.

That Amazon is willing to sell something at a loss in order to drive related sales, clear shelf space and put their competition out of business does nothing for the hobby. It actually undermines the value of the products and manufacturers then also have to sell their own products wholesale for less, driving them out of business as well. This is a well documented problem companies face today. It is well demonstrated here by those who have come to place a low value on the products and balk at paying a few dollars more for them.

Big retailers like Amazon have no interest at all in the long term survivability of a product line, they are only interested in quick turnover. There will always be stuff for them to sell and it doesn't matter to them one bit if it is games or towels that fly out of their warehouses.

Where are Boulder Games, Boards and Bits, Thoughthammer or Fun Games Cafe today? These were big names in discount online game shops just a few years ago. Unsustainable business models do nothing for the hobby, either.

Hobby shops foster a community, even the ones that don't have play space. They are also tough businesses to keep open. The profit margin is so thin at these stores already that the owner is probably glad his wife has a job to support him when it's been a slow month. Mixing them with a cafe might give them more stability, but restaurants are even a worse business prospect than a hobby shop.

You get upset because FFG wants to maintain the value of its products, keep its doors open and earn some profit? Perhaps help maintain the community that is its bread and butter?

I have no problem with them trying to support brick and mortars over online sales.

Table rentals?

Yeesh!

Is everything monetized now? Next they'll want to charge by the die roll!

At the THG, you don't even have to buy anything. Just show up. In the case of X-Wing the product sells itself, but that's not the point.

By creating a welcoming and fun atmosphere the THG has quickly brought together a number of groups. MtG Players, Pokemoners, 3 separate DnD groups ranging in ages from students to retirees, and of course the X-Wing Club. Not to mention the spooky boardgamers, a group of people who show up randomly to play horror board games. If I had to estimate the number of individuals who call THG "their shop" I'd say it's more than fifty. Fifty people, at least, who would rather spend their money at the shop than online. You know maybe back in the day people would buy online and ignore local retailers, but these days I think Canadian consumers at least, are more interested in the economy and how they influence it. It is not an uncommon topic of conversation to hear or take part in. How many of us here have had these same conversations about supporting local business, boycotting big name chains like Wal-Mart. I think that we're about to come into the 20s with a more educated student, and a more conscious minded individual, despite what the media says. People are more interested now in how their lives are affected by finance and how they can make changes in their own habits to influence companies. More and more people are waking up to the fact that we can make a difference and it;s going to change the way we do business in the future.

In the same way that the idea of a luxury automobile is slowly being eroded, we'll see this notion erode too, this idea that a consumer has a right to get a product for a deep discount. After all, where does this cost get reimbursed? Who has to pay the rest of the cost? Is it you who pays $5 for a T-Shirt or $10 for a toy ship? No. You only reap the benefit of your self proclaimed rights to spend less. The true cost of fast economics is paid by the assembly line worker, who now has to increase production, but lower overhead.

If you want X-Wing at 30% off maybe you ought to be glueing micro-machines onto third party stands?

I honestly don't care about having to pay more for X-Wing. It is what it is and it's a luxury product anyway. I DO care about this being a GW-esque move that does nothing more than frustrate consumers and make it more difficult to get their product.

For example, I'm sure that this would be the end of my Team Covenant subscription, because it's technically an online sale. So when a new Warhammer Conquest pack comes out, I have to get it from my FLGS. Or, just get it from Amazon and circumvent my FLGS anyway.

It really doesn't do anything other than force me to change what online retailer I use (since there's no way they'd cut out Amazon) and remove convenience for me.

This is actually a pretty normal thing, this is actually their attempt to help the FLGS improve their businesses by making you have to buy the items you would play with at those stores from those stores.

Which sounds like a no brainer since i pretty much only buy from my flgs with the exception of movment templetes because he has no desire to stock them.

In certain areas of the UK we had the position that GW pretty much ran other FLGS out of business and out of town.

So a model developed. We would rent out spaces like Scout huts, church halls and the backs of pubs once a week, and the games club was born. We pay a weekly fee to the club treasurer which collectively covers the rent and accumulates for extra equipment such as terrain or tables (if you are lucky enough to have somewhere to store em). Now does this mean I do not care about the FLGS we do have? No I care!! I care that I have someone to ask if that game is good (except BGG), someone I can ask painting tips, someone who can introduce new players to my group that knows our play-style etc... in the end an FLGS is a community hub as well as a shop.

So if this move is really designed to help FLGS then all for it! but if not then shame.

This will most certainly cause me personally to buy less or none at all. I almost never buy from FLGS and the reason being is I would trade old hobbies in for store credit and then gain a nice boost with an order large enough for free shipping. So meh, I get why they are doing it but doubt I will continue to buy product when my resource pool would be thinned. Just me personally so your mileage may vary but business is business and buying cheap was frankly smart as a consumer. Feel bad for brick and mortar guys but it's not like they only sell one thing, I have serious doubts this will help their profit margins much.

If they just wanted to help flgs they'd make more OP kits and event stuffs, then tell the flgs about them so they'd know to buy them.

If barging hunters are so prevalent to cause an issue, maybe MSRP is too high for the average consumer. Raising prices doesn't fix that.

On the one hand, the desire to help out FLGS is commendable (although I'm pretty sure FFGs motivation is purely financial, somebody did some math that somehow they make more $$$ if they shut down online discounts), but on the other hand I expect that for some people it will suck quite a lot. Not everyone has a large and well-stocked FLGS nearby.

It's also a rather big gamble for FFG/Asmodee since it's rather difficult to predict if, faced with increased prices,people would buy the same stuff (and spend more) or buy less stuff (spending the same amount), the latter being bad for FFG.

If they kill off the online sales of the shop I buy from, I simply won't buy. End of.

Well this is an interesting turn of events.

This does look like a targeted action to prevent online retailers who use their status as brick and mortar shops as little more than a cover for a huge online operation. The brick and mortar cover is the only reason they could get such discounted product in the first place.

Ultemetly this is about cutting out the middle men i.e. distributors and selling direct to retailers. With their combined product lines and better discounts than they offer distributors A retailer would be stupid to not buy direct.

I speculate the online shops will be buying at a worse discount now with these agreements meaning we will likely se a rise in online prices but not a total evaporation of the online discount.

I also don't think they will stop operations like team covenant as they fit all the exceptions they laid out.

Like.. what the hell did y'all do before 30% discounts for no reason were a thing? Pay full price or just cry a lot?

Why do you deserve Imp Aces for $10?

It's like fast fashion all over again. Next it'll be kids in Bangladesh getting fingers cut off in the x-wing stamp so we can have disposable $5 minis.

Give your heads a shake.

Oh, the neverending shame of the internet today. Everyone wants to jump in and press the easy-mode entitlement button any time someone they disagree with complains on the internet. Learn to compose some independent thoughts and put together an actual case in favor of your argument.

I don't deserve Imperial Aces for bargain prices. Never said I did. But if the market has successfully supported providing us ships with discount pricing, why should the price of the end product suddenly go up when the cost to manufacture and distribute (presumably) remains unchanged?

I think also, that what you might call "bargain prices" in your other post, I call "the real price". If FFG sells to Coolstuff and makes a profit, and Coolstuff sells it to me for profit - then that is the price the market can successfully support - the real price as far as I am concerned. There is a model that provides the ships to me, at lower prices, with companies making a profit. MSRP and whatever model Asmodee is fixing up is just creating a fictitious value. And if you can't compete in with that logistics/scale - sorry, you can't compete and you'd better find something people are willing to pay for.

As for the Chinese children assembling these toys, well Asmodee hasn't said they would do anything for them with all this extra money, have they? But if they did plan to increase wages or improve working conditions, well that would represent an actual increase in the cost to manufacture and distribute the product, and you wouldn't hear me complaining. The real actual cost of the product would have changed. They didn't just decide a $5 product should cost $8, it actually costs $8. They are entitled to just raise prices if they wish, of course, just as I am entitled to not like it if I wish.

I don't understand how people do not feel insulted when a company takes the exact same product, artificially makes it cost more to the consumer, and then tells them "Look at this great thing we did!".

But I buy in person at cool stuff inc...

Well, you don't have to stick up for your FLGS. Asmodee/FFG will do it for you. .

Riding in on a brontosaurus wearing a hyena bathrobe and carrying a bank vault bag over da-shoulder and screaming "Yabba-Grabbah-Dat Dow$$$!"

Save the game stores grampus... so we can sleep betters at night! (Not dat we evers go to the stinking shadowy creep-cave-things)

Riding in on a brontosaurus wearing a hyena bathrobe and carrying a bank vault bag over da-shoulder and screaming "Yabba-Grabbah-Dat Dow$$$!"

Er.... Joe? Have you misplaced the dried frog pills again?

Like.. what the hell did y'all do before 30% discounts for no reason were a thing? Pay full price or just cry a lot?

Why do you deserve Imp Aces for $10?

It's like fast fashion all over again. Next it'll be kids in Bangladesh getting fingers cut off in the x-wing stamp so we can have disposable $5 minis.

Give your heads a shake.

Oh, the neverending shame of the internet today. Everyone wants to jump in and press the easy-mode entitlement button any time someone they disagree with complains on the internet. Learn to compose some independent thoughts and put together an actual case in favor of your argument.

I don't deserve Imperial Aces for bargain prices. Never said I did. But if the market has successfully supported providing us ships with discount pricing, why should the price of the end product suddenly go up when the cost to manufacture and distribute (presumably) remains unchanged?

I think also, that what you might call "bargain prices" in your other post, I call "the real price". If FFG sells to Coolstuff and makes a profit, and Coolstuff sells it to me for profit - then that is the price the market can successfully support - the real price as far as I am concerned. There is a model that provides the ships to me, at lower prices, with companies making a profit. MSRP and whatever model Asmodee is fixing up is just creating a fictitious value. And if you can't compete in with that logistics/scale - sorry, you can't compete and you'd better find something people are willing to pay for.

As for the Chinese children assembling these toys, well Asmodee hasn't said they would do anything for them with all this extra money, have they? But if they did plan to increase wages or improve working conditions, well that would represent an actual increase in the cost to manufacture and distribute the product, and you wouldn't hear me complaining. The real actual cost of the product would have changed. They didn't just decide a $5 product should cost $8, it actually costs $8. They are entitled to just raise prices if they wish, of course, just as I am entitled to not like it if I wish.

I don't understand how people do not feel insulted when a company takes the exact same product, artificially makes it cost more to the consumer, and then tells them "Look at this great thing we did!".

Well said, and I heartedly agree with this philosophy. If you look at it from the standpoint of capitalistic freedom instead of a grass movement brick and mortar rally call, when did saving money become a self entitled indulgence? Oh that Porsche is 95k at this dealer MSRP, heaven forbid you go down the street to a competitor that may have it a couple thousand less or man you are really being a ****** by scouring the Internet for another couple thousand off that. Shopping smart is just good business for a consumer.

Riding in on a brontosaurus wearing a hyena bathrobe and carrying a bank vault bag over da-shoulder and screaming "Yabba-Grabbah-Dat Dow$$$!"

Er.... Joe? Have you misplaced the dried frog pills again?

Nah Brah... but this is a sore spot from my past and it is one of the few things that kinda pisses me off a lil bit!

I honestly don't care about having to pay more for X-Wing. It is what it is and it's a luxury product anyway. I DO care about this being a GW-esque move that does nothing more than frustrate consumers and make it more difficult to get their product.

For example, I'm sure that this would be the end of my Team Covenant subscription, because it's technically an online sale. So when a new Warhammer Conquest pack comes out, I have to get it from my FLGS. Or, just get it from Amazon and circumvent my FLGS anyway.

It really doesn't do anything other than force me to change what online retailer I use (since there's no way they'd cut out Amazon) and remove convenience for me.

YUP. For me I live in a wonderful happy little valley way up in the mountains and anything cool that has to do with modeling and miniatures games all has to be shipped in to The Battle Parlor. IF there was a cool clean and well ran LGS here I would be the president of it's gaming club.

There ain't so don't you mess with Boss' Online Toy-shops!

:angry: