Have you ever tried to move Tie Bombers towards the enemy capital ship? They get targeted out quite fast and taken down.

Heh… didn't you ever watch The Mighty Ducks?

Actually, i've never had a problem getting my bombers in range because my opponent was too busy working on the Defenders.

4 Sienar Test Pilots with X1 ATCs, and Autothrusters, 84 points.

Nyuk nyuk.

derp

• Protects vunerable ships until later in the battle, preventing them from dying on the approach from focus fire if they're priority targets or from AoE blast attacks. AoE blast attacks are much more likely with torpedo boats in the game.
• Can be granted benefits in either pilot skill or launch volume from titles.
• Allows fully reactive positioning at pilot skill 12.

I can't quite emphasise after using the Gozanti how powerful that last ability is. Being able to fully reactively maneuver TIEs, choosing their maneuver after seeing where everyone else (minus GR-75s, CR-90s and the Raider-class) has gone, is incredibly powerful. The area just in front and just behind of the Gozanti is a threat zone where TIEs are liable to appear after your activation in the worst possible positions. Remember that these TIEs still get actions too, and the Gozanti can then take support actions (Fleet Officer, Coordinate, Comms Booster and Targeting Coordinator) after they've deployed. Imagine having Scourge, Youngster, Howlrunner and Mithel all appear at Range 1-2 behind your aces or your corvette in an instant, all with Focus and Expose.

That was with TIE fighters. Interceptors could PTL boost barrel off of already fully reactive positioning. The Vector launching four TIE interceptors or ATC TIE advanced is terrifying.

And then we get to bombers, which can launch, lock on and be right next to Gozanti ordnance experts in one activation.

In theory yes but in practice it could be trickier as they all deploy from the front move or back move nubs and you're either going to have to deliberately overlap them and lose your action or deploy some out to each side.

All launchable TIEs can barrel roll. I found launching a miniswarm off of the 1 turn and 3 turn to be a very effective way to get a tight formation this way.

Do they all have to be the same pilot? No right? So I could drop off Soontir and Turr and Carnor and Fel's Wrath in your face/arc dodged to the side.

All launchable TIEs can barrel roll. I found launching a miniswarm off of the 1 turn and 3 turn to be a very effective way to get a tight formation this way.

Seeing how the deployed ship can choose ANY maneuver on its dial and then take an action (if it is not stressed) makes the docked ships VERY dangerous. The player does not even have to select the movement in planning phase! The Gozanti moves after all of the small and large ships, the player looks at the field and chooses to deploy a number of ships using any maneuver found on the dial! These ships then take part in the combat phase.

It's evil, amazing, and amazingly evil! I'm installing a little MP3 player w/ speaker on mine to play the Imperial March.

What is the benefit of starting out with ships docked to the Gozanti? While it looks awesome and fun, it seems like it would be easier to just start the ships undocked in the desired formation. Is the point value of the docked ships negated/reduced or is there some other advantage?

I feel like this may be well a known fact and I just missed the memo. If so, please tell me the answer and let this thread descend to the depths of the forum.

Docked fighters can't be attacked.

You can use the carrier to move your tie bombers (for example) to a good position before launching them. This would save them the almost-certain destruction they would have suffered trying to cross the distance themselves.

While in certain situations I can see the benefit of this, it seems like most of the time this would put one at a disadvantage. While you're protecting the docked ships, the Gozanti itself may endure focused fire and you'll have fewer ships on the board that can return fire.

EDIT: In addition, huge ships move so slowly, it seems like it would take quite a while for the Gozanti to get them in position.

Well, it usually takes about 2-4 turns for any threatening formation to close on a Huge ship and set up a good attack vector, at least in my experience. Having docked ships provides a few benefits, at least theoretically:

1. Umbrella effect- you can use it to protect a few ships from all forms of attack. But you have to examine this in a less cut-and-dried way. One, you can include named pilots. This means it's harder for your enemy to set up in a way that allows them to zero in on key ships to eliminate early.

2. chaos- Additionally, the Gozanti can charge into a group or formation that has partially scattered, then deploy its docked ships. This means that any key targets you wished to protect can be deployed purposefully in a turn when the enemy is in poor position to retaliate against any they may wish to destroy early. On the flip side, some poor sod on the enemy team might have his or her sweet little keester pointed at the Gozanti, just begging to be blasted apart.

3. protection- To date, every Huge ship I've seen get taken down (with only one single exception) was killed by attacks from the rear. However, ships can be deployed and immediately turn to attack enemies on the Gozanti's rear. This is an advantage that no other Huge ship has.

4. Planning- Your opponent will always have to make their decisions with those docked ships in mind. Not knowing when you may deploy them makes planning that much harder for the opponent. And when you give your opponent the opportunity to make a choice, you give them the opportunity to make a mistake.

5. Damage- I know it sounds kinda hard to swallow, the idea that the destruction of the Gozanti deals one damage to all docked ships, but honestly, in enough rounds to kill the Gozanti, how much damage would those ships have taken? When you think about it, it's possible many of those ships may have been destroyed by that point (especially Bombers, since they can be focused down much more easily in Epic games thanks to their 2 evade dice and poor maneuverability).

These are just some seeds to consider.

Thanks for the excellent post. I understand and agree with your points and those others have made, I suppose I just feel that the advantages are being overestimated and that potential drawbacks are being glossed over. I'm not trying to be stubborn, but while you and others like it, I just see a ton of holes in using docked ships. My comments below are in response to your points.

1) While you're protecting these ships, you're also taking their firepower off the board. If four ships are docked, that means anywhere from 48 to over 120 points are docked on the ship. If we split the difference and assume 80 pts (Qty 4 20pt ships) are docked and it takes 2-4 turns to get into position, that is 2-4 turns that the opponent has 80 pts more of ships on the board dealing damage.

2) Good point, but this relies on poor position or mistakes by the opponent. With fewer ships on the board, it will be difficult to force them into this type of misstep.

3) True, but one can also dedicate ships to fly behind the Gozanti and watch its rear. While the following ships wouldn't be protected (though any damage to them means they're getting hit and not the Gozanti, thus fulfilling their purpose) and would have to worry about maneuvering, they'd also be able to fire and deal damage. The deployment move is a one-time shot, once the ships are out they're in the same boat as if they had started undocked and escorted the ship.

4) While the Gozanti does cause planning issues for the opponent as they try to avoid giving you a good undocking position, it also causes planning issues for you as you need the Gozanti in a good place so that the undocking ships have the advantage. While this dance it going on, the opponent has the advantage by having ~80pts more in ships on the board.

5) You have a very valid point and I agree that protecting strategic ships until they are in position can be huge. That said, a barebones Gozanti is 40pts. That 40 pts will be dealing very little damage to the opponent (even if armed, I would assume it will take defensive actions until it is ready to undock the ships). While putting offensive upgrades on the Gozanti will allow it to deal more damage, the cost of these upgrades will require sacrifices elsewhere, lowering the lethality of the rest of the fleet. This means that for the first 2-4 turns, the opponent will have roughly 120 pts more of damage dealing ships on the board. In a 300 pt match, this means that a little less than half of ones points will be tied up in the Gozanti. If paired with a Raider, there may only be room left for a couple non-docked fighters.

All in all, The extra firepower in the early game is a huge advantage for the opponent and forces the Gozanti flyer to nail the undocking position of the ships in order to compensate for it. While the Gozanti w/ docked ship strategy may prove to be a bigger advantage when done well. It seems like a strategy that has much less room for error.

My gut says there are ways to capitalize on carrying ships. I can't wait to try this out.

You're not taking firepower off the board if the docked ships would have been too far away to shoot anyway.

Bombers docked could be nasty. Consider that you deploy after you execute a maneuver - so you'll still have you action awaiting you. You can deploy a bomber to end up range 1 of an enemy ship - have the bomber focus. Then use the coordinate action with the Gozanti to have it Target Lock - and the bomber fires an Advanced Proton Torpedo at range 1 with both a focus AND TL. You can do that 4 times if you want. Would be pretty nice!

I think it will be hard to get within R1 to do that. Also, getting in R1 of an Epic is just a recipe for getting run over. I think it will be a challenge enough to have a Gozanti with Bombers to deploy them and get within R3 to fire the first round of undocking. Still...always nice to dream!

You can take Weapons Eng. to get 2 TL's, but you won't know for sure if you will have a shot at both your targets. A smart opponent will zip past you with the two targeted and let the rest of their ships hit you.

Eh...howso? Don't huge ships move+activate AFTER everyone else? Why would you take a target lock on a fighter that you know you won't have in arc? It's not like anyone is moving *after* you take your action...

This was about how you have to take an action to TL every round and how once you get in firing range, you will want to spend that action to bring your shields back up. Weapons Engineer can work on the first round when you don't need to bring the shields up, but there is no guarantee that the two ships you TL will actually be in your arc on that second round. You probably spend one TL to do more damage to the first one and then the next guy just zips past your firing arcs and you have to spend that action to get another TL instead of bring your shields back up. What I'm saying is that if you are using Weapons Eng. to ensure you have 2 rounds of firing ordnance without having to take the action on the 2nd turn, you might not have that target in your sights. If it were me, I'd make sure to zip that one guy forward to force you to either not fire or not bring shields back.

Have you ever tried to move Tie Bombers towards the enemy capital ship? They get targeted out quite fast and taken down.

Heh… didn't you ever watch The Mighty Ducks?

Actually, i've never had a problem getting my bombers in range because my opponent was too busy working on the Defenders.

Lucky you! The first thing everyone goes for is Tie Bombers and/or Y-wings. No one wants to get hit with ordnance carriers in my games! It's worse for the Empire because every Rebel ship can take ordnance. Even the X-wings can fire Proton Torps at Epic...which really is epic. Those crits are mean.

You're not taking firepower off the board if the docked ships would have been too far away to shoot anyway.

True, so maybe exclude the first turn as there will not likely be any shooting. The only ways to avoid shooting thereafter is for one side to slow-roll. Your opponent will have little reason to do so, as you have little firepower on the board and they will likely want to intercept you before you get near their capital ship. If you slow roll, then you're just adding more time until you get near their capital ship and undock.

So maybe firepower is off the board for 1-3 turns instead of 2-4. Its still a huge advantage.

Don't forget the catapult effect. Charge the Cozy Gozy forward 4, then deploy a ship speed 4-5. Should get someone in range for what ever shenanigans you desire at that point.

Don't forget the catapult effect. Charge the Cozy Gozy forward 4, then deploy a ship speed 4-5. Should get someone in range for what ever shenanigans you desire at that point.

No need to go that far even. Considering you get to CHOSE the maneuver of the ship deploying, WHEN you declare that you are deploying it, you will know exactly where the enemy ship is going to be before you pick a maneuver. You can ensure you put yourself RIGHT at range 1, or right out of his/her firing arc that way. Easily. Geesh it is gonna be insane.

Imagine 4x TIE Advanced with Advanced Targetting Computer and Push The Limit? Just drop them all at range 1!

I'm really looking forward to this ship. X-Wing could almost stop releases right here and I'd be happy. Well except for Imperial Veterans. Geez it's like plastic crack.

Don't forget the catapult effect. Charge the Cozy Gozy forward 4, then deploy a ship speed 4-5. Should get someone in range for what ever shenanigans you desire at that point.

That's assuming you're already pointed in the right direction. If your opponent is at an angle, you'll potentially have to choose slower moves to turn in order to have them in arc when you deploy.

Maneuvering for deployment and maneuver to defend against deployment will be a thing. Hail to Epic, it is finally taking shape of what it should have been from the get go!

I'm really looking forward to Epic.

I'm really looking forward to this ship. X-Wing could almost stop releases right here and I'd be happy. Well except for Imperial Veterans. Geez it's like plastic crack.

And potato chips... bet you can't buy just one.

Geez it's like plastic crack...

Auralnauts said it best.

A whole lot of salient counterpoints

Ok, I'm not sure I if I'm going to do a point-for-point rebuttal here, because those tend to be annoying. I'll just make a few points as they come to me. This may end up a bit scattered as i'm bouncing back and forth between rereading your stuff and typing, please bear with me.

One thing that comes to mind: the points invested in docked ships will be more lethal early on. Let me explain. As is my current understanding of deployment rules, any deployed ships will get to move and act during the Gozanti's turn. Since they activate after all small and large ships, this means that even the lowly Academy TIE or Alpha Squadron can move and act while knowing the layout of essentially the entire board, excluding of course enemy capital ships that move after the Gozanti. So your Low PS blokes can enjoy all the arc dodging and action economy goodness of their higher PS brethren. And in the case of turning to the rear to attack tailers, they can focus their attacks more readily than a squadron that had to arrive in formation the hard way. Also, something I learned while flying Oicunn, when you get something big and mean and just fly it smack into an enemy squadron, you can really mess up their day. In this regard, you can force opponents into extremely disadvantageous positions. After all, the pins may outnumber the bowling ball, but that doesn't mean they have the advantage.

I can't remember if you've mentioned having actually played with/against any Huge ships, but on the chance you haven't I have to say you have to plan VERY HARD in your approach. There's a lot of things that can sully it as well. You said that my point 2 (chaos) relied on poor opponent planning, but I'd be inclined to disagree. You can't fault them for scrambling out of the way of a ship that can pancake them in a single move. It's rare for the opponent to attempt to joust Huge ships, and that was even true with the Transport, which can't return fire. It's incorrect to assume that your opponent is the only factor in them being out of position. It's your job to force them there. And it just so happens to be much easier to do that when you're driving a bulldozer with blaster cannons on it.

Another thing I'd like to mention (and I see a few other people have as well) is that at least 1, usually 2 in epic games, of those turns there is no exchange of fire (unless some upstart little Interceptor got brash and charged ahead with a death wish). In fact, there are genuine ways to take advantage of this. For starters, you can deploy the Gozanti near one edge of the map, move forward, and deploy docked ships to function as an impromptu pincer attack force with another flight group not far away.

Now, for this next one I'm going to quote you directly: "While the Gozanti does cause planning issues for the opponent as they try to avoid giving you a good undocking position, it also causes planning issues for you as you need the Gozanti in a good place so that the undocking ships have the advantage."

…Yeah? Your point? I mean, this game is at its best as a functional counter play scenario. I for one don't want something so ridiculously overpowered. What I want is something that makes me think in NEW ways. Makes my opponent fight me in NEW ways. There are plenty of ships and tactics in this game that seem very useless until you learn to alter your tactics to accommodate them. "Unlearn… what you have learned," so to speak. I mean you basically just described X-Wing maneuver choosing in that line, but like it was a negative. Dude! That's exactly why we love this game in the first place! I for one look forward to being on the edge of developing strategies for this ship, seeing what works and what doesn't and how to fly it. Same thing happened with everyone's favorite punching bag (until recently), the Defender.

I also have to call out your attack in the efficacy of the "barebones" Gozanti at 40 points. You're paying more than that for a Decimator without an ability. And it's true, you don't get the turret, but you do get to obliterate anything you overlap, and you get a Recovery action to boot. We can quote dice statistics for days, but it's hard to measure something like "wiped the Millennium Falcon off the board with a maneuver dial" with simple damage output numbers. (I'm sure some mathwinger like Major Juggler can come up with something useful, like measuring the frown angle of the player who just lost Chewie to a windshield )

And while I see your point on having ships paid for but not firing, I'll have to argue the quintessential "it's not the size, but how you use it" argument. You can put some cheap ships on the dock, or some expensive ones. But if you choose your moment wisely and make a decisive strike, you can singly cripple your opponent's squad in one round. I feel that using docked ships gives you some very interesting and craft methods to pioneer here.

Lucky you! The first thing everyone goes for is Tie Bombers and/or Y-wings. No one wants to get hit with ordnance carriers in my games! It's worse for the Empire because every Rebel ship can take ordnance. Even the X-wings can fire Proton Torps at Epic...which really is epic. Those crits are mean.

I fly them together behind a wall or a V of TIEs or interceptors. Prospective attackers at range 2-3 of the Bombers tend to be at range 1 of about 4-6 escort ships. Going after the bombers becomes a great way for them to put themselves at an early disadvantage. Best part is, it gives the opponent a choice: great attack against cheap ships, or poor attack against expensive ones. And like I say, when you give them the opportunity to make a choice, you give them the chance to make a mistake. Also Determination works great on Bombers.

Hmm. It appears that my point about letting low PS guys go last was even more on the mark than I thought. As I read the new article, it seems even the deploying maneuver you select gets to be selected when you're activating the Gozanti, that is to say, you get to select your maneuver after knowing where everyone is for the round (not just your actions).

Or you can spit out BSP's loaded with intimidation. Maybe not the most practical, but hilarious none the less.

Don't forget, the chosen maneuver can be the 5kturn. Assuming you judge the distance right, you could spit out a fighter directly behind the enemy. The best part is that everyone has already moved (except for huge ships) so there's no guessing.

I can see the benefit of dropping soontir off in the middle of the fight extremely beneficial since he's most vulnerable in the joust. High dollar items tend to be singled out first in epics, just too many arcs.

I think there are some cool things you can do with a Gozanti. I think repositioning, setup, and moving your ships to support each other is very important in Epic. If you mess up, it can be hard to recover from it. The Gozanti lets you reposition well, as already stated and that can be good. Lots of ways to use it.

I do think you need to watch out as to not keeping your ships onboard too long, though. Personally, though, I don't think many people will do that. There is a danger of someone wanting to try to get a specific trick off (R1 drop off of ships) which could lead to having ships spend too much time off table.

Lucky you! The first thing everyone goes for is Tie Bombers and/or Y-wings. No one wants to get hit with ordnance carriers in my games! It's worse for the Empire because every Rebel ship can take ordnance. Even the X-wings can fire Proton Torps at Epic...which really is epic. Those crits are mean.

I fly them together behind a wall or a V of TIEs or interceptors. Prospective attackers at range 2-3 of the Bombers tend to be at range 1 of about 4-6 escort ships. Going after the bombers becomes a great way for them to put themselves at an early disadvantage. Best part is, it gives the opponent a choice: great attack against cheap ships, or poor attack against expensive ones. And like I say, when you give them the opportunity to make a choice, you give them the chance to make a mistake. Also Determination works great on Bombers.

I've played multi player and you can't always convince the others to screen your beloved Tie Bombers.

Also, I've experimented with sending either Y-wings or Tie Bombers wide. It either draws their Interceptors away or lets you sneak by. When it draws them away, you can either then ambush them with your own interceptors or let them kill off that squad while you destroy the rest of their list with all of yours.

Man....this really is making me want to play an Epic game.

I do think you need to watch out as to not keeping your ships onboard too long, though. Personally, though, I don't think many people will do that.

Another point regarding this that I haven't seen anyone mention. the Gozanti damage deck has 6 (SIX! 3 fore and 3 aft) "Damaged Docking Clamp" results that force you to deploy a docked ship, inflict a damage on it and prevent it from attacking for that round. So, yeah, definitely don't want to keep ships docked too long.

(in case anyone was wondering, if you get one of those crits and don't have any docked ships, the Gozanti itself takes an extra point of damage)