Hi everyone

yesterday (after my second vision of TFA) we tried our first play of AoR

we started with adventure on "beginner game", however PC where rebuilt with AoR full rules, a new player (force sensitive emergent) added and planning on playing it like a full flegded adventure, not a railroaded one

Adventure plot derailed very fast: after first few encounter, team splitted with one infiltrating inside the base with imperial uniform and the other ones hiding on AT-ST... then turning on them and using to shoot down a stormtrooper patrol lured outside.

While main alarm started on base, the other team cutted off escape route and captured Lietenant on his way out, thus taking over the base and a capturing lot of prisoners.

Of course was'nt a carefully planned attack, just a "going here and start doing things" plan, like mostly on Star Wars

The game was funny, and that's the first thing; also we made our first step in this new system, and that could be a good or bad thing: a good 'cause i liked it, a bad 'cause my mates does'nt really liked it

i made them promise me we will try a little campaign arc (maybe the follow-up adventure/campaign from website plus something else inside) but dunno if and when this will be satisfied

However, this topic is for the question about using AT-ST vs Imperial Stormtroopers

i made the gunner shoot with a 3d difficulty ('cause is silohuette 3 vs silohuette 1), and then after an hit he did 50 damage thus wiping entire squad. Big effect, ok.

But

a) is it correct to base difficulties on silohuette difference, like on vehicular combat?

b) damage is 10:1 as for space fighters vs personal?

c) what about range? i mean: i suppose those are planetary scale... right?

d) and what about stormtrooper vs AT-ST? i suppose they can't even scratch him, 'cause rifle does 9 damage, and even a good shot can't overcome his 3 point of armor (that means 30 point on personal scale...)

Even with an E-Web (heavy repeating blaster) they can't stop it. Only specific anti-vehicle weapons can (the ones with breach and 20+ base damage).

e) what about silohuette 2 weapons? ok i see airspeeder are planetary scale (they shoot down AT-AT on Hoth, btw) and aratech speeder bike got personal scale weapons... and what about range? still on personal scale (so probably everything are at extreme range first round, and engaged on second round 'cause short range on planetary is extreme on personal scale...)

ok, i guess that's all for now

thank you for answers

ouch,

maybe you should give it more difficulty for range, i think that 3d for silhouette difference is add to already existing difficulty. Also, i see on forum, many suggested that planetary scale be x5 instead of x10

a) is it correct to base difficulties on silhouette difference, like on vehicular combat?

Yes. But don't forget to add setbacks and such as well for cover, concealment, underbrush, bad light, ect.

b) damage is 10:1 as for space fighters vs personal?

Yes, all vehicle weapons are 10:1 unless otherwise noted.

Thing to remember here is when a character takes wounds they can only go to double the WT before you stop tracking. Vehicle weapons is why. The good news is this means that when you hit your average WT 13 player character with an auto-blaster, they may be out of the fight, but they can burn an entire day's Stimpack ration to get back up. Of course if that WT16 Wookiee takes an auto-blaster to the face, he's out for a while...

Also note, GM's have the option to allow crits inflicted by vehicle weapons to have +50 on the crit roll vs. people, which do allow for insta-kills on a bad roll. I tend to apply this on a case by case bases rather then locking anything in, since as a GM you occasionally have to pull punches for the greater good of the plot.

c) what about range? i mean: i suppose those are planetary scale... right?

Yes, unless otherwise noted. Vehicles in a personal scale fight can pretty much shoot anything they can see unless fitted with personal scale weapons.

d) and what about stormtrooper vs AT-ST? i suppose they can't even scratch him, 'cause rifle does 9 damage, and even a good shot can't overcome his 3 point of armor (that means 30 point on personal scale...)

Even with an E-Web (heavy repeating blaster) they can't stop it. Only specific anti-vehicle weapons can (the ones with breach and 20+ base damage).

Correct. Using small arms in a general attack against a walker is pretty dumb (as dumb as spraying a modern tank with an assault rifle). Remember though that AT-STs generally are depicted as fighting with hatches open, so called shots (see the Aim Maneuver) will allow you to do things like lob grenades into the cab an such. This is a pretty big point as MANY Star Wars vehicles have exposed gunners and crew, so finding ways to damage the crewers directly will often be an important strategy, as well as a balancing point for certain vehicles that mount "anti-personnel" planetary scale weapons, but require the gunner to have his codpiece swinging in the breeze to use it.

Also bear in mind how most man portable anti-vehicle weapons work when it comes to those high armor targets. A Missile Tube pretty much won't be able to cause any Hull Trauma to something like an AT-ST. However, unlike personal scale damage, you only need to exceed the Armor to be allowed to inflict a crit. So when you start firing on something like an AT-ST the objective needs to be to inflict Crits as serious and often as possible. Score enough crits, and you'll be able to essentially shut down the vehicle, if not destroy it. Of course that requires a lot of shooting, so a lot can go wrong in that time....

e) what about silohuette 2 weapons? ok i see airspeeder are planetary scale (they shoot down AT-AT on Hoth, btw) and aratech speeder bike got personal scale weapons... and what about range? still on personal scale (so probably everything are at extreme range first round, and engaged on second round 'cause short range on planetary is extreme on personal scale...)

It all comes down to the scale of the weapon. On a vehicle, unless otherwise noted, weapons will be planetary scale.

For personal scale weapons on moving vehicles remember it's only one maneuver to for a vehicle to "move within the Close range band." So in personal scale, even the slowest of vehicles can go from personal extreme to personal short in one maneuver. For this reason, a GM planning a vehicle in personal scale encounter will likely want to make the terrain difficult for the vehicle, requiring a piloting check as an action to keep the vehicle from pulling movement shenanigans.

c) what about range? i mean: i suppose those are planetary scale... right?

thank you for answers

I am pretty sure that the weapons on the chickenwalker are personnel scale, it should say in the stat block.

b) damage is 10:1 as for space fighters vs personal?

Yes, all vehicle weapons are 10:1 unless otherwise noted.

Thing to remember here is when a character takes wounds they can only go to double the WT before you stop tracking. Vehicle weapons is why. The good news is this means that when you hit your average WT 13 player character with an auto-blaster, they may be out of the fight, but they can burn an entire day's Stimpack ration to get back up. Of course if that WT16 Wookiee takes an auto-blaster to the face, he's out for a while...

Ok, but against a minion squad (ie 4 stormtrooper), it can blast all squad: every 6 hp inflicted, one stormtrooper goes down

(i guess soak is subtracted only once per shot, right?)

d) and what about stormtrooper vs AT-ST? i suppose they can't even scratch him, 'cause rifle does 9 damage, and even a good shot can't overcome his 3 point of armor (that means 30 point on personal scale...)

Even with an E-Web (heavy repeating blaster) they can't stop it. Only specific anti-vehicle weapons can (the ones with breach and 20+ base damage).

Correct. Using small arms in a general attack against a walker is pretty dumb (as dumb as spraying a modern tank with an assault rifle). Remember though that AT-STs generally are depicted as fighting with hatches open, so called shots (see the Aim Maneuver) will allow you to do things like lob grenades into the cab an such. This is a pretty big point as MANY Star Wars vehicles have exposed gunners and crew, so finding ways to damage the crewers directly will often be an important strategy, as well as a balancing point for certain vehicles that mount "anti-personnel" planetary scale weapons, but require the gunner to have his codpiece swinging in the breeze to use it.

Also bear in mind how most man portable anti-vehicle weapons work when it comes to those high armor targets. A Missile Tube pretty much won't be able to cause any Hull Trauma to something like an AT-ST. However, unlike personal scale damage, you only need to exceed the Armor to be allowed to inflict a crit. So when you start firing on something like an AT-ST the objective needs to be to inflict Crits as serious and often as possible. Score enough crits, and you'll be able to essentially shut down the vehicle, if not destroy it. Of course that requires a lot of shooting, so a lot can go wrong in that time....

Wait... why "unlike personal scale"?

correct me where wrong:

Personal: after damage calculation, subtract target's soak, then if one wound is inflicted you can activate critic

Vehicle: after damage calculation, subtract target's armor, then if one hull trauma is inflicted you can activate critic

right? where's the difference?

A minion squad of Stormtroopers probably isn't going to be able to do much to a group of PCs in a walker, but I'd still have them try to charge the walker, ascend to the crew cabin, and either attempt to break in or drop grenades through open viewports and attack the crew. Plus being on the walker prevents them from being targeted by the walker's weapons, and forces the PCs to either smash the walker into objects to dislodge them (causing collision damage, even minor ones) or opening a hatch and exposing the interior of the crew compartment as the PCs go man-to-man (see above for "grenades into cockpit" tactic).

b) damage is 10:1 as for space fighters vs personal?

Yes, all vehicle weapons are 10:1 unless otherwise noted.

Thing to remember here is when a character takes wounds they can only go to double the WT before you stop tracking. Vehicle weapons is why. The good news is this means that when you hit your average WT 13 player character with an auto-blaster, they may be out of the fight, but they can burn an entire day's Stimpack ration to get back up. Of course if that WT16 Wookiee takes an auto-blaster to the face, he's out for a while...

Ok, but against a minion squad (ie 4 stormtrooper), it can blast all squad: every 6 hp inflicted, one stormtrooper goes down

(i guess soak is subtracted only once per shot, right?)

Clarification: The x2WT thing is really for Player Characters and characters of Rival level or above the GM wants to keep around for a while. So against a typical minion GROUP a single hit from the main guns on an AT-ST (60 damage minimum) will remove the entire group unless it's especially large.

Against a SQUAD a single hit meat-shielded toward the minions will remove a single Stormtrooper regardless of damage inflicted.

d) and what about stormtrooper vs AT-ST? i suppose they can't even scratch him, 'cause rifle does 9 damage, and even a good shot can't overcome his 3 point of armor (that means 30 point on personal scale...)

Even with an E-Web (heavy repeating blaster) they can't stop it. Only specific anti-vehicle weapons can (the ones with breach and 20+ base damage).

Correct. Using small arms in a general attack against a walker is pretty dumb (as dumb as spraying a modern tank with an assault rifle). Remember though that AT-STs generally are depicted as fighting with hatches open, so called shots (see the Aim Maneuver) will allow you to do things like lob grenades into the cab an such. This is a pretty big point as MANY Star Wars vehicles have exposed gunners and crew, so finding ways to damage the crewers directly will often be an important strategy, as well as a balancing point for certain vehicles that mount "anti-personnel" planetary scale weapons, but require the gunner to have his codpiece swinging in the breeze to use it.

Also bear in mind how most man portable anti-vehicle weapons work when it comes to those high armor targets. A Missile Tube pretty much won't be able to cause any Hull Trauma to something like an AT-ST. However, unlike personal scale damage, you only need to exceed the Armor to be allowed to inflict a crit. So when you start firing on something like an AT-ST the objective needs to be to inflict Crits as serious and often as possible. Score enough crits, and you'll be able to essentially shut down the vehicle, if not destroy it. Of course that requires a lot of shooting, so a lot can go wrong in that time....

Wait... why "unlike personal scale"?

correct me where wrong:

Personal: after damage calculation, subtract target's soak, then if one wound is inflicted you can activate critic

Vehicle: after damage calculation, subtract target's armor, then if one hull trauma is inflicted you can activate critic

right? where's the difference?

Go to the AoR Core pg 257. Left column, down at the bottom mixed in with the illustration.

To land a critical hit against a vehicle you need to get the requisite Advantage/Triumph, and exceed the target's Armor, but there's no requirement to inflict Hull Trauma. When using Vehicle scale weapons against vehicles this is a rather moot point as exceeding the armor means you're doing at least 1 point of hull trauma too. Where this comes in is when using personal scale weapons against vehicle scale targets, and while it's jumbled in the image, the book does mention this.

Vehicle Armor and Hull Trauma is 10:1 compared to personal scale.

So lets say I fire a Missile Tube (20 Damage personal scale, Breach 1) at an AT-ST and hit with 2 Success and a Triumph. In total I deal 22 Personal Scale Damage. The AT-ST has an Armor of 3, which translates to 30 soak. My missiles breach means I ignore the first point of armor, leaving the soak at 20. Subtract that soak from my attack... and I do a measly 2 points of damage. Since HT is 10:1 like armor, I'd have to do 10 damage to inflict one point of hull trauma. However, my 2 whole points of damage did exceed the Armor...so I can use my triumph to inflict a Critical hit! 80! The AT-ST now has a crit on the books and 4 points of System Strain! Another 2 or 3 hits like that and the AT-ST will be out of the fight!

A thing you'll probably see inflicting nothing but Crits is vehicles will likely end up with functional kills instead of the usual HT disabling. So the AT-ST might end up with no inflicted HT, but have it's speed reduced to 0, all it's weapons disabled, and the crew on fire... effectively removing it from the fight.

Clarification: The x2WT thing is really for Player Characters and characters of Rival level or above the GM wants to keep around for a while. So against a typical minion GROUP a single hit from the main guns on an AT-ST (60 damage minimum) will remove the entire group unless it's especially large.

Against a SQUAD a single hit meat-shielded toward the minions will remove a single Stormtrooper regardless of damage inflicted.

mmmhhh...

what's the difference between a group and a squad?

i suppose is "a group of minion and a squad of rivals"?

To land a critical hit against a vehicle you need to get the requisite Advantage/Triumph, and exceed the target's Armor, but there's no requirement to inflict Hull Trauma. When using Vehicle scale weapons against vehicles this is a rather moot point as exceeding the armor means you're doing at least 1 point of hull trauma too. Where this comes in is when using personal scale weapons against vehicle scale targets, and while it's jumbled in the image, the book does mention this.

Vehicle Armor and Hull Trauma is 10:1 compared to personal scale.

Ooooooohhhh ok

ty

so long, personell vs vehicle will end up in damaging-but-not-destroying vehicle. Anti-vehicle personell weapons will slowly strip down big vehicle from functioning rather than destroying.

Ok thanks

Clarification: The x2WT thing is really for Player Characters and characters of Rival level or above the GM wants to keep around for a while. So against a typical minion GROUP a single hit from the main guns on an AT-ST (60 damage minimum) will remove the entire group unless it's especially large.

Against a SQUAD a single hit meat-shielded toward the minions will remove a single Stormtrooper regardless of damage inflicted.

mmmhhh...

what's the difference between a group and a squad?

i suppose is "a group of minion and a squad of rivals"?

A " Group" is 2 or more minions using the grouping feature of the minion character type to act (for all intents and purposes) as a single character.

A "Squad" is a single Rival, Nemesis, or Player, with an attached minion group using the squad rules. (Back of the AoR GM kit)

so long, personell vehicle vs vehicle will end up in damaging-but-not-destroying vehicle. Anti-vehicle personell weapons will slowly strip down big vehicle from functioning rather than destroying.

Depends on the details, but yes.

The only way to destroy a vehicle for realized is with the "Destroyed" crit (or the GM just saying so). Laying on the cross and getting that +10 each time helps do that. Also vicious works on vehicles, so a disruptor can actually be pretty solid against armor 0 and 1....

A " Group" is 2 or more minions using the grouping feature of the minion character type to act (for all intents and purposes) as a single character.

A "Squad" is a single Rival, Nemesis, or Player, with an attached minion group using the squad rules. (Back of the AoR GM kit)

Ok ty

i did'nt have AoR GM Kit so don't know the squad rules

i'll look forward to it, then.

(obviously, i plan on buying it when... or better IF... i'll start playing a campaign...)