I might get a lot of flak for this, especially since the only negative 'reviews' of this movie that I am aware of have been from folks on this forum, but I feel that this movie is better than Return of the Jedi for reasons. And stuff.

First off if this movie is a retread of ANH as many have claimed then ROTJ has sinned as equally, especially since it returned to both Tatooine and an actual Death Star. Here TFA has the advantage since it uses new locations and ups the stakes in many ways, including the loss of the Galactic Senate and Republic fleet in one strike.

But let's take the structure of the movies. ROTJ felt like 2 different movies with the Jabba's Palace rescue having no bearing on the rest of the movie. TFA is definately a cohesive whole with the characters growing and changing throughout and the narrative flowing more naturally. Revelations of character identity and relationships have build up and payoff and are even more emotionally charged than the tacked-on nature of Leia being Luke's sister and the clumsy way it was discussed by the characters.

The confrontations on protagonists and antagonist are at least on par emotionally with Luke vs Vader and the Emperor, and that's saying a lot. A LOT. The throne room scenes are the absolute best in ROTJ and tie up the main character's struggle with a definate conclusion, be it Luke or Anakin. The moral choices, the internal and external conflict, TFA has these in spades. A one time scoundrel and skeptic turns hero and father, confronts his son in a last ditch attempt to change his path, knowing that he is willing to sacrifice everything to get him back. This time it fails and it is tragic and heart breaking, not just for the audience but for the characters as well. And the fight between Ren and the heroes felt just as raw and emotionally charged as the final duel with Vader. The actors do a wonderful job with the incredible emotional heavy lifting that is asked of them. On this the movies are equal.

The battles are pretty uneven in ROTJ. The Battle at the Sarlaac was exciting because of Luke finally looking like a Jedi Knight taking out the bad guys with his sabre, and it was full of energy. But it was disappointing to see Lando, Chewie and Han bumbling around like the three stooges while Boba Fett had the most pitiful send off imaginable for such a hyped character. Leia straight up murders Jabba using her father's prefered method, don't know if this counts as a positive or not.

The speeder chase was exciting as well, but the ground battle of Endor is legendary it its unbelievability, as well as introducing Chewie's Tarzan yell. This ultimately distracts from the excellent space battle which is one of the best, if not the best space battle in all of cinema. With TFA we have many exciting battle sequences and chases with only the lack of a true space battle being the only negative. There's still two more movies left for that kind of thing, as well as rogue one.

Han Solo used is MUCH better in TFA than in ROTJ where he looked tired and ready to give up, with little sense of fun or accomplishment. He didn't even get to fly the falcon! TFA completed his story and served as the reminder that not all endings are happy. ROTJ missed this opportunity.

The funeral for Vader is ROTJ's most real moment, as Luke wordlessly honors his father while his friends and the Galaxy celebrate, it's so... Well it gets me in the feels every time. Anyone who has lost loved ones and mourns what might have been completely understands that moment. The silent Rey as she ascends he stairs to her destiny and then finally meeting the living legend and myth add flesh is a moment cut from the same cloth, though with very different emotions.

I hope you will see that, though no film is perfect, when it comes to Star Wars movies there are several elements that must come together to produce a whole greater than its parts. I feel ROTJ ultimately coasted to an ending that could have been far grander, yet still delivered the emotional gravitas in the end. TFA did a better job of getting us invested in the characters and keeping our intererst while serving up a heaping helping of nostalgia and comedy and the emotional conflict and impact that is needed to propel the saga into a new era instead of limping somewhat lamely to a finale.

I loved ROTJ - actually my favorite SW film even though I can acknowledge that Empire is the King. Jedi was the earliest film I can actually remember seeing as a child, so it resonated with me the most. (I was 3 when it came out, and 4 when it ended up being available as a rental).

But I can see the argument. TFA was amazing on so many levels. So much was done right, and I think in a time where we all NEEDED to see a good Star Wars film, it did it's job fairly well. I'd rank it as the 3rd best SW film, but that's me.

NOPE.

For me ROTJ (and TESB and ANH) will Always be the better movies.

Also You can't really compare those two movies. ROTJ was the ending of a trilogy meant to tie up all the loose ends and serve as the end point of Vader's character arc. TFA is a new beginning that heavily borrows elements and characters from the OT but also skipps over lots of stuff: I'm left wondering about the new order/republic/resistance. I Wanna know more about what happened with luke's jedi temple and ben turning to the dark side! How did that happen? (why isn't the movie about that?) ROTJ didn't make me go "WTF is going on?!"

I can forgive ROTJ for building the second death star (if at first you don't succeed and all that) but did we really need to do the massive doomsday space station/planet a 3d time?

TFA is better than the prequals, but that's not saying much.

Ep 7 was a good movie, it blows Rebels out of the water a million times over, but I don't think its better than Ep 6

In episode 6 the way the story is presented and scenes played out, as well score that compliments it, makes the scenes super charged and during the scenes it needs to be. It never loses this charge... It only builds up till the perfect moment where Vader turns on the Emperor and destroys him. I feel the scenes in Jabbas palace where necessary because we needed to know the fate of Han Solo and the Rebels looking for him. It would be awkward to not show what happened to him and pretend he didn't exist in the 6th film. People not seeing the 5th wouldn't be effected but anyone who had seen the 5th one would notice that they complete skipped over Han and his predicament involving the Bounty Hunter and Jabba the Hutt.

Only one other Star Wars film captured the action dynamics Ep 6 had and that was Ep 1 but only at the end.

Now the reasons I feel 7 isn't better or the best out of all the SW is because it doesn't feel like a SW story. Its the first SW story I have ever seen where it just didn't feel like SW. After a couple days I figured out why. Its because of how all the characters interact with each other as well as side characters and extras. I said it before in a different review. The three new protagonists feel like SW fans that were sucked into the movie and now they have to interact with the SW universe or die, its a very similar concept that the Last Action Hero followed. Just a side note, Poe was the least jarring. I on top of that, feeling like they are SW fans stuck in a SW movie, the way the talk or feel about each other came off strange to me. Fin just up and being crazy in love with Rey, even offering her to run away with him, they had not even known each other for a day. In ep 4 Luke crushes over Leia no doubt but what Fin goes through seems... uncomfortable.

Now as for Han and Chewie most the time they seemed great together, but there a couple times were they had scenes together that felt strange. The ones that come to mind are the Crossbow scenes. I am supposed to believe that in the 40+ years Han Solo was with Chewie he never used Chewies Crossbow till this movie? Its just a minor thing like this that bugs me just a little.

Back to Rey, I thought the scenes where she is just up and using force powers without training was weird. Force grabs and stuff like that I can see being something she can do without training. Just up and being like, hay I can do force mind tricks! YUP! That was an awkward scene, again making her character feel like she is a SW fan that was sucked into the movie. The only way this scene can be redeemed is if they show in later stories she was receiving training from some sort of force user that taught her these abilities.

The last thing that really bothered me about this SW movie was the score. For the most part I didn't feel anything from it except one thing. They had melodies in the score that sounded an awful lot like the score from Star Wars: The Holiday Special. Its because of ep 7 score that there times I was watching the movie and my mind would think back to the Holiday special because they had similar melodies. To me that is a General Grievous mistake.

If I were to compare all SW material that had music made for it Shadows of the Empire tied with Ep 6 and followed by both Force Unleashed Games take the cake in most powerful scores in the saga. Dark Forces, The Holiday Special, and Ep 7 have the worst, to me.

I didn't like most the jokes in this film. They felt like the type of jokes you would have in Avengers, and it feels fine for Avengers, but it doesn't feel right in SW. Having a character mock the main Villain about his looks, Fin flip flopping about his background, him screaming all the time, the scene with the two troopers noticing that Caedus was angry via parts of the room being chopped up and thrown out the doorway in front of them. These style of jokes do not fit with how the SW stories are told. I don't want them here. Oh and them up and contemplating killing a captured enemy in a horrible way via garbage compactor, the way Fin acted and the fact they were going to do this to an enemy is not funny nor does it fit or even make me like the new main character. As terrible as it sounds being on a planet blown up by a super laser is more humane than being slowly crushed to death by a garbage compactor. If she had to "die" just cut one of her artery or shoot her, taking the time to find a garbage compactor to put her in also is a waste of time and could get them into a compromising situation.

Thats about it, I liked everything else, Caedus, Snookie, every other Imperial and Rebel character or side character felt like they belonged in this film, I don't know how or why they made 2 of the new Protagonists feel the way they did but left the antagonists feeling fine.

I can forgive ROTJ for building the second death star (if at first you don't succeed and all that) but did we really need to do the massive doomsday space station/planet a 3d time?

TFA is better than the prequals, but that's not saying much.

I can also. In the documentary about the old trilogy it was shown that Fox demanded that the Death Star be in the first movie, he never wanted it in the first movie. Considering how things played out in ROTJ I think it wouldn't had been as good of a story if he decided since he was force to put the DS in the first movie he would take it out of the third act in his first trilogy.

I will say a positive thing about TFA: tehy got the lightsaber duels looking like actual fighting again, rather than that bloody circe-du-soleil-trampoline acts from the prequals.

I will say a positive thing about TFA: tehy got the lightsaber duels looking like actual fighting again, rather than that bloody circe-du-soleil-trampoline acts from the prequals.

I also liked how Riot Troopers are still bad ass ever since SWTFU. XD

I could just see Star Killer Clone 11XX being Fins teacher to become a Force Adapt or primal. He finally beats his first Riot Trooper.

Fin: Piece of cake!

11XX: Brilliant, absolutely brilliant... But what do you plan to do about... them?

(Points to a full legion of Riot Troopers)

Riot Troopers: Hiyaah! They all activate their staffs in sequence with each other.

Fin: Hi guys... ahhhhh, HE FORCE TRICKED ME INTO BETRAYING YOU!!! HES A JEDI. He points at 11XX while squealing and running away!

Sow hat are the odds we'll see Han Solo in ep VIII or IX?

Yes I know what you're thinking but Darth Maul also fell down a near bottomless shaft and he was cut in half...

Also what's with this movie series and characters falling to their doom?

Prequals: Darth maul

Trilogy: Luke Skywalker, Emperor Palpatine

Sequals: Han Solo

Now the reasons I feel 7 isn't better or the best out of all the SW is because it doesn't feel like a SW story. Its the first SW story I have ever seen where it just didn't feel like SW.

I totally agree with this sentiment.

The story and the dilemmas feel extremely generic. They could totally reskin this movie for Ethan Hunt or Captain Kirk.

The geopolitics seem ill-thought out.

The basic rules of Star Wars are thrown out the door. Jumping to hyperspace while parked in a hangar?

So at the end of Return of the Jedi:

The New Republic can't win the war.

Han becomes a deadbeat dad.

Luke is jedi master drop out.

And from Leia's voice, she's become a chain Deathstick smoker.

@Black Knight Leader,

You seem to be a big fan of the old EU and yet you're irked that Rey could just use force powers without training, yet Luke did that in Empire and Kyle Katarn did that in the entirety of Dark Forces: Jedi Knight. Heck, Leia could sense and communicate with Luke before she even knew she had the force and Anakin used it as a child to react fast enough in Podraces.

Rey seemed to be in heavy denial that she had the force at first, even afraid when she felt it. She likely was using it all her life and never noticed it.

I also don't very much get the idea of them feeling like Star Wars fans in the movie.

It seems like they knew very little of history that took place 30 years prior. Seems accurate to real life. I don't really know a much about the history of the 80's other than some of the whacky hairstyles and clothes people wore. Everything was just a myth or legend to Rey and Finn about some Republic hero that is no longer around.

@Patox

Star Wars doesn't really have many rules though. Everything is subject to change to fit the story being told.

Force is an energy field. Then it was symbiotic bacteria. Now it's explained as an energy field again.

Lightsaber wounds caused bleeding, then they didn't.

Stormtroopers were fantastic shots and then they weren't.

Boba Fett was cool and then he wasn't (if his death by blind Han didn't ruin him, the prequels did).

I'm biased because I'm part of the sad generation that didn't get to see any of the OT in theaters. I remember watching Ep II and Ep III in theaters, but TFA blew them out of the water.

And personally?

I think it's better than Jedi.

It might even be better than Empire.

For one thing, there isn't a single frame in this movie that isn't a work of art. Every time I see the scene of those TIE fighters silhouetted against the sun or Rey blasting past the setting sun on her speeder, I get goosebumps. Obviously, RotJ was handicapped by the technology of its time; but even so, TFA completely outshines it in terms of cinematography.

I also find the characters of TFA to be more relatable and compelling. Rey's combination of childlike wonder and hardened adaptability create a really unique character, and I just see so much more in her than I ever did in Luke. Luke was interesting because of the moral conflict he faced; Rey is interesting simply as a person. The same goes for Finn -- on the one hand, he's a hardened stormtrooper; but on the other hand, he still doesn't know what on earth he's doing. And Ren . . . Ren beats the hell out of Vader in terms of a developed baddy. Hell, I even prefer Snoke over the Emperor, just because Snoke isn't an idiot; when Starkiller Base is going down, he just tells Hux to get out of there alive and bring Ren with him.

As for the story . . . you can draw parallels between TFA and ANH; but you can also draw parallels between ANH and Lord of the Rings*. It's a hero's journey; of course it isn't entirely original. I found the plot to be simple, yet compelling. At no point are you left confused by what's going on; but it wasn't painfully predictable. It was the kind of story where you figured out what was going to happen a split second before it did -- simply because it had to happen that way. Like Ben facing Han . . . the light goes out, he looks down, and suddenly you just know that something is about to go horribly wrong.

I loved it.

So yes, I'm totally biased. I never got to be a part of the original Star Wars movies. But at the same time, I can say that no Star Wars movie before has ever elicited such a response from me, even now that I'm on my third viewing of TFA. My vision might be blurred by hype, but at the same time, it isn't clouded by nostalgia. The climax of ANH leaves me with goosebumps and the climax of RotJ puts me on the edge of my seat; but seeing Rey pick up that lightsaber leaves me with tears in my eyes. This movie is just so goddamn good. I don't see how they'll top it with VIII, but I know they will.

*And on the point of story originality -- you have to realize that TFA had the job of bridging the gap between the OT and the ST. It had to make callbacks to the old movies in order to help the viewer make the transition; I think it succeeded brilliantly at this job, without turning into a mere rehash of the original.

Now the reasons I feel 7 isn't better or the best out of all the SW is because it doesn't feel like a SW story. Its the first SW story I have ever seen where it just didn't feel like SW.

I totally agree with this sentiment.

The story and the dilemmas feel extremely generic. They could totally reskin this movie for Ethan Hunt or Captain Kirk.

The geopolitics seem ill-thought out.

The basic rules of Star Wars are thrown out the door. Jumping to hyperspace while parked in a hangar?

So at the end of Return of the Jedi:

The New Republic can't win the war.

Han becomes a deadbeat dad.

Luke is jedi master drop out.

And from Leia's voice, she's become a chain Deathstick smoker.

I had a very different experience from this. When I was watching TFA, I just kept seeing things that made me think holy crap, I'm watching Star Wars! The dilemma between light and dark and father and son is extremely Star Wars; to be honest, I think you're mistaking generic for universal. This themes are innately human, which is why Star Wars is such a brilliant series; it explores those struggles that we all see. I absolutely can't picture a Mission Impossible movie with such dichotomous moral dilemmas, nor can I see a Star Trek movie that could get away with them without being called a Star Wars ripoff. But that's just me.

The basic rules aren't thrown out the door; the advanced rules are. We've gotten to the point where a lot of the EU is indistinguishable from fact, but it isn't necessarily canon. Where in the movies is there an indication that you can't jump to hyperspace from within a hangar? Nowhere. Sure, it hasn't been done before; but that's an indication of difficulty, not impossibility. And even if this was a rule -- come on, it's Han Solo. Rules were meant for him to slyly ignore.

At the end of RotJ --

The New Republic can't instantly wipe the entire Imperial Remnant out of existence, because the New Republic consists of a shattered remnant of a starfleet and a scattered military force.

Han fathers a Force-sensitive son who falls to the Dark Side. (Star Wars motifs, anyone? Light and Dark? Father and son? Betrayal and redemption?)

Luke realizes that he wasn't ready for the responsibility of training a whole order of Jedi, and that it's largely his fault that his friend's son is now one of the most staunchly evil individuals in the galaxy. (Again -- betrayal and redemption? Light and dark? Power and responsibility?)

And Leia has the misfortune of being played by Carrie Fischer .

I know this is all subjective, but I just don't see how you can watch TFA and not think Star Wars . . . .

Sigh. Agree to disagree, I guess.

No way is tfa better than Jedi it's not better than any of the OT it's a remake of hope, it does nothing original and even the trench scene falls way short.

<shrug>

At the moment, TFA is my second favorite Star Wars movie. After ROTJ. And I have TPM before ANH. Opinions are weird.

The basic rules aren't thrown out the door; the advanced rules are. We've gotten to the point where a lot of the EU is indistinguishable from fact, but it isn't necessarily canon. Where in the movies is there an indication that you can't jump to hyperspace from within a hangar? Nowhere. Sure, it hasn't been done before; but that's an indication of difficulty, not impossibility. And even if this was a rule -- come on, it's Han Solo. Rules were meant for him to slyly ignore.

Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, boy! Without precise calculations we could fly right through a star, or bounce too close to a supernova and that'd end your trip real quick, wouldn't it.

-- Han Solo

Personally, I found TFA to be better than RotJ, but not as good as Star Wars or ESB. Good movie, great characters, scenes, and effects ... I just wish they hadn't decided to rehash the plot from the original film.

Right now it's the honeymoon period where people are just glad it's not the prequels, give it a few months to sink in it'll go down in people's estimations, right now people are hyped and giving it more credit than it deserves.

It's okay but that's all it is they remade a new hope to play it safe which really is the issue most people have.

I didn't come out hating it at all but a few hours later I'm already forgetting parts of it I can't even think of a qoute I'll be using while playing.

Right now it's the honeymoon period where people are just glad it's not the prequels, give it a few months to sink in it'll go down in people's estimations, right now people are hyped and giving it more credit than it deserves.

It's okay but that's all it is they remade a new hope to play it safe which really is the issue most people have.

I didn't come out hating it at all but a few hours later I'm already forgetting parts of it I can't even think of a qoute I'll be using while playing.

This. Nothing truly memorable happens beside Han getting killed. The rest is stuff you have already seen before but with 2015 movie magic behind it.

Right now it's the honeymoon period where people are just glad it's not the prequels, give it a few months to sink in it'll go down in people's estimations, right now people are hyped and giving it more credit than it deserves.

It's okay but that's all it is they remade a new hope to play it safe which really is the issue most people have.

I didn't come out hating it at all but a few hours later I'm already forgetting parts of it I can't even think of a qoute I'll be using while playing.

That's kind of condescending. The movie didn't work for you. Frankly, it's not surprising, as you were pretty much just prepping yourself to hate it. And that is fine. Different tastes and expectations. But, don't dismiss others opinion.

Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo Ren are all great characters, with some great and fun performances, that I want more out of.

Right now it's the honeymoon period where people are just glad it's not the prequels, give it a few months to sink in it'll go down in people's estimations, right now people are hyped and giving it more credit than it deserves.

It's okay but that's all it is they remade a new hope to play it safe which really is the issue most people have.

I didn't come out hating it at all but a few hours later I'm already forgetting parts of it I can't even think of a qoute I'll be using while playing.

"That's not how the force works!"

"Sanitation?!"

"I'm helping you because it's the right thing to do!" "You need a pilot." "I need a pilot"

"OK, Big Deal"

"Who talks first? Do you talk first? Do I talk first?"

"Of course I'm with the Resistance. This is what a Resistance fighter looks like"

"I know how to run without you holding my hand!"

"I never ask that question until I've done it!"

"Ok, stay calm... stay calm" "I am calm." "I was talking to myself!"

"What about that ship?" "That one's garbage" BOOM! "Garbage will do!"

None usable, not one? Good heavens this one had more quotable lines than the entire prequels combined.

Right now it's the honeymoon period where people are just glad it's not the prequels, give it a few months to sink in it'll go down in people's estimations, right now people are hyped and giving it more credit than it deserves.

It's okay but that's all it is they remade a new hope to play it safe which really is the issue most people have.

I didn't come out hating it at all but a few hours later I'm already forgetting parts of it I can't even think of a qoute I'll be using while playing.

That's kind of condescending. The movie didn't work for you. Frankly, it's not surprising, as you were pretty much just prepping yourself to hate it. And that is fine. Different tastes and expectations. But, don't dismiss others opinion.

Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo Ren are all great characters, with some great and fun performances, that I want more out of.

It's okay but that's it I wouldn't change the channel if it were on like I do with the prequels, but if I sat down and wanted to watch star wars this wouldn't be the first movie I reached for.

If it hadn't been star wars this movie would of just about made its money back and been largely forgotten.

You'll also note I'm far from alone in my opinion, and there are plenty of others actively hating the movie.

Right now it's the honeymoon period where people are just glad it's not the prequels, give it a few months to sink in it'll go down in people's estimations, right now people are hyped and giving it more credit than it deserves.

It's okay but that's all it is they remade a new hope to play it safe which really is the issue most people have.

I didn't come out hating it at all but a few hours later I'm already forgetting parts of it I can't even think of a qoute I'll be using while playing.

"That's not how the force works!"

"Sanitation?!"

"I'm helping you because it's the right thing to do!" "You need a pilot." "I need a pilot"

"OK, Big Deal"

"Who talks first? Do you talk first? Do I talk first?"

"Of course I'm with the Resistance. This is what a Resistance fighter looks like"

"I know how to run without you holding my hand!"

"I never ask that question until I've done it!"

"Ok, stay calm... stay calm" "I am calm." "I was talking to myself!"

"What about that ship?" "That one's garbage" BOOM! "Garbage will do!"

None usable, not one? Good heavens this one had more quotable lines than the entire prequels combined.

And most of those are Finn's. Gotta admit I actually like that guy.

"That's not how the force works!" : Some of us in the movie theather were thinking the same at some points during the movie.

And the mandatory "I have a bad feeling about this." It's not SW without that line.

"Chewie we're home." I'm gonna start saying that whenever I walk into the local gamestore.

Right now it's the honeymoon period where people are just glad it's not the prequels, give it a few months to sink in it'll go down in people's estimations, right now people are hyped and giving it more credit than it deserves.

It's okay but that's all it is they remade a new hope to play it safe which really is the issue most people have.

I didn't come out hating it at all but a few hours later I'm already forgetting parts of it I can't even think of a qoute I'll be using while playing.

That's kind of condescending. The movie didn't work for you. Frankly, it's not surprising, as you were pretty much just prepping yourself to hate it. And that is fine. Different tastes and expectations. But, don't dismiss others opinion.

Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo Ren are all great characters, with some great and fun performances, that I want more out of.

Nope I went in neutral and came out the same I don't hate the movie at all how can I when it's a new hope, I hate the director and this movie didn't change that his very best is average he`ll never make a great film.

It's okay but that's it I wouldn't change the channel if it were on like I do with the prequels, but if I sat down and wanted to watch star wars this wouldn't be the first movie I reached for.

If it hadn't been star wars this movie would of just about made its money back and been largely forgotten.

You'll also note I'm far from alone in my opinion, and there are plenty of others actively hating the movie.

I don't hate it, (because hate leads to suffer- ah goddamn prequals!) But I feel a tad dissapointed because on one hand it's part condensed remake of the OT and they skipped to far ahead in the story. (Han and leia getting a son, luke get's a jedi academy)

Now about that last part I've been thinking, We all know Disney is thinking bigger than the movies from the getgo, and we've been getting several animated series filling in the periods between movies (Clone wars, Rebels) so I'm guessing we'll be getting a Jedi Academy animted series sometime in the next years, explaining what Luke and the gang had been up to since Endor and B/Ren's fall to the dark side.

I can see that some people don't understand Star Wars.

I can see that some people don't understand Star Wars.

Is it JJ Abrams? (sorry had to go there )

Ok Ok he actually did get the feel of movie right. It "felt" star wars.

I can see that some people don't understand Star Wars.

Is it JJ Abrams? (sorry had to go there )

Ok Ok he actually did get the feel of movie right. It "felt" star wars.

yeah, it did. I'll give it that. *movie was both great and horrible at the same time for me*

more OT: well, I don't think it was better thatn ROTJ; OTOH it had no ewoks in it, and that's a really big plus..