One of my players is potentially starting as a P.I, so I went ahead and created a talent tree specifically for the P.I, using Marshal, Thief and a couple of other tree's to get talents from.

The idea behind the P.I is that it is a fairly flexible career with a good range of skills directed at information gathering, bribery, computers and light combat. However, as you'll notice, no specific area contains duplicate talents (exception to shortcut, point blank) so the P.I is ideally suited with a complement specialization. If someone wants to a hardened P.I, they could go down the road of P.I > Enforcer. If someone wants stealth as a primary focus, P.I > Thief, etc.

Here's the tree for anyone wishing to use.

(Link Removed)

So is it a colonist tree then? Because there is actually a Private Investigator concept in the back of the Colonist sb. It says to start as a Marshal and then take Thief. If you make a mixture of both, you somewhat limit his possibilities.

The Character I now used to play is a CorSec man. I started out with Marshal on corellia, even though it is not a colony. I took HotShot to represent the corellian mad flying skills and later added gunslinger, just because it fit.

I would encourage your player to take the way of multiple Specs, because then he get's more side-talents he didn't think he needed but come in handy somewhere down the line.

But that is just my opinion.

So is it a colonist tree then? Because there is actually a Private Investigator concept in the back of the Colonist sb. It says to start as a Marshal and then take Thief. If you make a mixture of both, you somewhat limit his possibilities.

Yeah I read that, that's why I took talents from the Marshal + Thief, hence bad cop/good cop, stalker. But I felt neither actually suited for an actual P.I. This player prefers the notion of actually having a P.I tree, hence the creation of one. I don't think it limits his possibilities, not with the mindset that he has in store for his character.

if you cherry pick talents for a "PI" spec then you run the risk of giving too much ability if the character takes the specs that you cherry picked from. There could end up being too much synergy with the Marshal or Thief specs thus unbalancing the game. You would do better directing him to create the character with the available specs as they are.

Well, balance is always an issue, but I don't foresee it becoming a big problem. Worse comes to worse he might be a bit extra buffer, but its not a big concern.

Will see how it plays out.

When he can give 4 upgrades to another ones social check because he generated just 2 Advantages and no success, then you'll see why there is only one Spec tree with those talents. It would be INSANE.

Seriously, I think you're robbing your friend of the experience of finally accomplishing the concept he had in mind, no offence. I had a similar concept for my now retired character.

My character was a CorSec (Corellian Police Force) investigator before he was made the fall guy for a corruption internal investigation by his partner. That is the reason he came to a group of EotE style adventurers. Asa Corellian human I had him start with Piloting Space and gave him two more ranks by start with XP, cause it was worth it for me. He is a Colonist Marshal, but I wanted him to further become this outlaw gunslinger and Ace pilot like any corellian. So I took Gunslinger and HotShot additionaley to flesh him out and I was so happy when I accomplished my goal that I had in mind for him.

Your way seems to be the short easy one. Why does that remind me of the dark side now?

Anywho, your decision, I just wanted to tell you my mind on it.

Agreed. A good PI is something you grow into based on a lot of experience and, going by most PIs in the media, a highly varied background. Having one tree for the concept would ultimately be dissatisfying.

When he can give 4 upgrades to another ones social check because he generated just 2 Advantages and no success, then you'll see why there is only one Spec tree with those talents. It would be INSANE.

Seriously, I think you're robbing your friend of the experience of finally accomplishing the concept he had in mind, no offence. I had a similar concept for my now retired character.

Your assuming that on the basis he would go into Marshal, except I know his career plan and Marshal isn't in it, but yeah, I see what your saying about the 4 upgrades. Can't say it BREAKS the game, and I'm content to leave those in.

In any case, I find the notion absurd that I'm 'robbing' him of the experience. I put the talent tree up to be shared with others, not to get into a debate about the balance of it. If people do not wish to use it, then they simply do not need it. But since I've got nothing but vitriol concerning the tree, I'll remove it. I'll also not bother with posting my planned ship decks on here either.

Vitriol? The word/phrase you're looking for is "constructive criticism". Vitriol is something else entirely.

If that character were in one of my games, I'd encourage him to take multiple specs. Marshal/Thief, as mentioned before, would be a good choice for this character

When he can give 4 upgrades to another ones social check because he generated just 2 Advantages and no success, then you'll see why there is only one Spec tree with those talents. It would be INSANE.

Seriously, I think you're robbing your friend of the experience of finally accomplishing the concept he had in mind, no offence. I had a similar concept for my now retired character.

Your assuming that on the basis he would go into Marshal, except I know his career plan and Marshal isn't in it, but yeah, I see what your saying about the 4 upgrades. Can't say it BREAKS the game, and I'm content to leave those in.

In any case, I find the notion absurd that I'm 'robbing' him of the experience. I put the talent tree up to be shared with others, not to get into a debate about the balance of it. If people do not wish to use it, then they simply do not need it. But since I've got nothing but vitriol concerning the tree, I'll remove it. I'll also not bother with posting my planned ship decks on here either.

Sorry that were some harsh words I used, I have that problem sometimes. I am german. ALLES WAS WIR BENUTZEN SIND HARRRRRTE WORRRRRTE!

But I agree with whafrog (who agrees with me to agree with you to agree with the ONE PIECE!) here. There are virtually no Private Eyes on fiction who started their career at some sort of school, except in parodies. A Private eye is normally a surly ex-cop (which would be the Marshal) who only does what he learned, but now with methods that he previously was barred from using because of police procedure. Of course this char takes Thief as fast as you can for breaking and entering into those suspects homes or offices. Then maybe Slicer down the road to extract all that incriminating data from the Computer.

That is what my concept of a Private Eye would be.

Hang on to your Spec tree if you want to, but we just all voiced our concern with it, as you wanted in the first place. I was inappropriately rude and I apologize for that. Maybe have your player watch over this thread and ask him what he thinks of our concerns. He's the ultima ratio here.

First of all, I don't think you crossed the line with the word "robbing", Moe; you even qualified it at the end of the sentence.

Then, I completely agree that PI should not be an off-the-shelf spec, just like the treasure hunter discussed in the main forum.

Any PC will cross-spec at some time. And yes, it will diminish their experience, if they get the starter, main course and dessert all blended into a tasteless (at best) stodge.

Well I showed my mate this thread, and I'll just say his response was not favorable to the 'criticism' received here about the P.I.

He finds the notion of going Marshal or Thief just plain wrong, especially thief, as it doesn't represent what a P.I is, in his words, "it just feels wrong".

Which is why the P.I skillset is made up of 4 different tree's. He's of the opinion that the tree suits perfectly as to what a P.I should represent. Not overly skilled in any one area, not overly skilled in computers/breaking in and entering, but a rather flexible class.

And I have to say I agree with him, cause that was the mindset I was going for.

So yes, your criticism, at least the constructive kind, is welcome, but I do not share your opinions concerning the tree. And at the end of the day, as long as my player is happy, that is all that matters to me.

Okay... but you do know, that the names of the trees do not really matter, do you? A thief skill tree could also be the tree for a locksmith or a spy. The Archaeologist could also be a Paleontologist as well. My Corsec Char wasn't really a Marshal, but a city cop. A Politico could as well be a Newspaperman and the list goes on and on.

FFG put the names up on the Specializations to give us some orientation points, but how we use the trees isn't really limited by them. I find the idea of an amalgamation tree actually really depressing, because then you have nothing to look forward to, once you finished it. All the talents are there already. Which would mean, that your mind already wanders towards those trees from which your tree came. And then you have game imbalance. Especially in regards with the Good Cop Bad Cop talents I said before and a few others, too. The character isn't any buffer, but he breaks the game for you! The GM.

Picture this situation: You have this social check against a black sun Vigo you want the chars to make. Let's say your P.I. wants to deceive him, so he does a deception check, but only comes up with zero success and two or more advantages. Let's say he has all Bad Cop talents from your tree and from the Marshal by now. He uses 2 Advantage gives one of his colleagues 4 (four!) whoopin upgrades on his social check. That is called an exploit, and believe me players will use them like noones business. Normally the only amount you get of these talents is 2 of each, which means two upgrades. And that is already pretty frickin' sweet, my group used the Vader outta that. We could talk our way outta almost anything, ALMOST. Had we had for upgrades that "almost" would have been most likely been erased from that sentence.

Also how did you go with grit in your tree? The Grit talent is the only way to get more strain threshold, which is very important. But you removed the link to the tree so we can't properly give you advice on it anymore.

Once again, I wouldn't do amalgamation trees, make an unique tree, for a job, that hasn't been represented by combining other trees already.

Oh and P.I. ARE thieves in the movies all the time. They steal evidence from a crime scene, steal credentials etc. So the Thief tree does represent that part of a thief properly in my opinion.

Okay... but you do know, that the names of the trees do not really matter, do you? A thief skill tree could also be the tree for a locksmith or a spy. The Archaeologist could also be a Paleontologist as well. My Corsec Char wasn't really a Marshal, but a city cop. A Politico could as well be a Newspaperman and the list goes on and on.

Yes, I'm fully aware of that. In fact, I had explained that to the player also.

Again, I was, and only interested in sharing the P.I tree. I did not wish to get bogged down in a debate about it. My intent was only to share it, not to receive help on it. Although I will remove the Bad Cop/Good Cop out of the tree, but that was based on feedback that it didn't suit the actual class, rather than balance feedback. In the end the tree will be getting used, and there is no further point in having this discussion.

"Oh and P.I. ARE thieves in the movies all the time. They steal evidence from a crime scene, steal credentials etc. So the Thief tree does represent that part of a thief properly in my opinion."

Aye, in your opinion. But my friend who is a massive Noir fan, had a colorful and rather vulgar response to your notion that P.I's are basically thieves...

Which is why the P.I skillset is made up of 4 different tree's. He's of the opinion that the tree suits perfectly as to what a P.I should represent. Not overly skilled in any one area, not overly skilled in computers/breaking in and entering, but a rather flexible class.

IMO, this is precisely what is wrong with it. It gives him exactly what he wants from the get-go, he doesn’t have to work for anything, and he doesn’t ever have to debate with himself if there is anything else out there.

In other words, IMO it is totally imbalanced.

If the game is properly balanced, then there shouldn’t be any trees that are a perfect blend of just the best bits from four other trees.

Might as well give him the four separate trees and 750XP to go along with it to completely fill those trees out, and then his character is done.

You’re welcome to share whatever you like, but if you create something this imbalanced and then share it with the community, you shouldn’t be surprised if you get lots of negative feedback on it.

Life is not the destination. Life is the journey. And IMO, so it should be with this game.

In any case, I find the notion absurd that I'm 'robbing' him of the experience. I put the talent tree up to be shared with others, not to get into a debate about the balance of it. If people do not wish to use it, then they simply do not need it. But since I've got nothing but vitriol concerning the tree, I'll remove it. I'll also not bother with posting my planned ship decks on here either.

If you are going to share it then you are going to have it critiqued. Nobody wants anything that may imbalance their game. You may be all right with it, but others may or will not be. So they will feel the need to point out where it falls short. I've seen other specs that were nothing more than cherry-picked amalgamations of choice talents. That does not a good spec make. Most specs have a theme beyond "I want something that brings all my favorite talents together because I don't want to cross spec". If your concept crosses multiple specs then it should be built that way.