Slightly OT question. When comparing squads one of the things I look at his Total Hit Points (or Health). While I understand that shields > hull, I don't know how to compare when the number of ships are different. In the example above while both BroBots and Quad /fo have 16 HP the spread is obviously different. 4H/4S x 2 vs. 3H/1S x4. While it is unlikely, it is possible to one shot a /fo. Not going to happen to the IG-2000. However by giving my opponents more things to shoot at, I can hopefully reduce focused fire on any one ship. So while 16HP is 16HP how do you factor in number of ships?

As always, thanks for helping us new guys out.

When you start to consider list-on-list comparisons, you have to figure evade dice into the equation. Maneuvering aside (and that's saying alot, but an arc-dodged shot never lands, and TIEs are range 1 are 50% more effective than TIEs at range 2), the side with the better loss-exchange ratio wins. More targets is better than fewer if the more targets can push their hits through as easily as fewer.

In the matchup you mention, well flown should favor the Brobots, since the TIEs will have a harder time pushing two attack dice through three evades than the Brobots pushing three attack through three evades. Brobots will reliably throw 6-8 dice (depending on cannons, plus IggyB reroll) against the TIE's 8 dice, but in larger, more reliable chunks. Since there isn't much overkill potential on TIEs (IG attack dice isn't significantly more than defense), the loss-exchange ratio over time will slightly favor the Brobots.

Now that said, the matchup is close enough that particularly good (or bad) maneuvering by one side will make a huge difference. If the TIEs can't maintain arc, or the IGs keep a ship out of range too long, or the IGs stay at range 3 where autothrusters work, maneuvering will quickly decide the game over dice.

Slightly OT question. When comparing squads one of the things I look at his Total Hit Points (or Health). While I understand that shields > hull, I don't know how to compare when the number of ships are different. In the example above while both BroBots and Quad /fo have 16 HP the spread is obviously different. 4H/4S x 2 vs. 3H/1S x4. While it is unlikely, it is possible to one shot a /fo. Not going to happen to the IG-2000. However by giving my opponents more things to shoot at, I can hopefully reduce focused fire on any one ship. So while 16HP is 16HP how do you factor in number of ships?

As always, thanks for helping us new guys out.

You're right, the larger numbers of ships can force a shifting aloft targets that a 2-ship list can't. They also require potentially wasteful kill shots to finish off. Imagine you've taken 3 damage to a ship, and the next incoming attack deals 3 damage. It would smoke a TIE/fo, leaving you down to 75% of your firepower and HP. With a dual Aggressor list, you'd still have 100% of your firepower, all of those 3 damage would go through, so one Aggressor would be close to death. Because of this kill shot effect, more ships for the same AGI and HP tend to be more durable, but also have their firepower degraded faster.

Dont see 4 x Tie/Fo to be very viable...

BUT

Quad-Aces instead of Triple-Aces will be viable.

Fel - Backstabber - two FO-Aces of your choice.

Targetpriority will be a pain for any opponent.

Continuing the Quad-FO vs Brobots comparison, I would note that the lists I've experimented with generally top out on useful upgrades with points left over for 1 to 3 hull or shield upgrades. So the HP comparison is more like 17 to 19 on the FOs versus 16 on the 'bots. So there's that.

The FOs have the added action economy of Comm Relay, which adds 1 to 4 free evades in the opening round of fire. So that gives it the feel of 18 to 23 HP.

Dont see 4 x Tie/Fo to be very viable...

BUT

Quad-Aces instead of Triple-Aces will be viable.

Fel - Backstabber - two FO-Aces of your choice.

Targetpriority will be a pain for any opponent.

I was thinking Fel, Vader, Night Beast and Chaser. Depending on opponent you could fly Fel in formation with the Fighters, turtle up, and hand down tokens to Chaser, while Lone Wolf Vader goes up the flank.

Unfortunately I think it's the 2 red dice on them that really kills it. All of the other lists that I know with 8 or fewer red dice (Deci-Whisper etc) have serious dice modification to help with that issue.

Juke helps a lot with the lack of red dice, as do the abilities of the best 2 pilots, Zeta Ace and Omega Ace. It is a concern, though.

I'm a big fan of three Academies and three FOs. There are many great combinations that can be made and will overwhelm many of the popular low agility lists.

I think Zeta and Omega leader in the same list is going to be pretty strong actually. Zeta looks to be a great bargain to me - roll him with just predator, so you can take a focus, stress for 3 die and get your reroll - he's hitting harder than Soontir for 23pts.

Omega is a real hexer of a ship, and is going to see a lot of table time I think.

That leaves a nice fat 51pts for you to play with. If you try and spend it on /fo's then you'll either start dropping points on upgrades that I don't think you strictly need, or you'll be taking one more cheap ace (eg zeta ace with ptl) and a couple of epsilons. I don't like the look of either of those builds. I'd probably favour 4 academies with the leaders, if you want to go all-tie.

51 is a decent amount of points though... Oicunn? defender and academy? Fel and stabber? Those all looks good to me!

tl;dr ... I think we'll see fo aces in pairs, not quads.

although, and it should be noted, generic Juke + Relay Omegas are pretty **** skippy in trios or quads (and empire finally gets its own BBBBZ; ACDC didn't count)

Continuing the Quad-FO vs Brobots comparison, I would note that the lists I've experimented with generally top out on useful upgrades with points left over for 1 to 3 hull or shield upgrades. So the HP comparison is more like 17 to 19 on the FOs versus 16 on the 'bots. So there's that.

The FOs have the added action economy of Comm Relay, which adds 1 to 4 free evades in the opening round of fire. So that gives it the feel of 18 to 23 HP.

I know it's not the sam ething against 2 IGs than against 4 FOs. But it seemed a comparison that was reasonable enough.

I think FOs might be a bit more durable because of them getting a bit more actions. Except if your opponent can focus fire one. Then you might be looking at a dead FO per turn which is not a good thing.

If they can kill an FO in a turn, they can probably kill an Aggressor in 2 turns.

If they can kill an FO in a turn, they can probably kill an Aggressor in 2 turns.

That's exactly what happened when i played against the aggressors.

Well I must say my "OZ Quad" did poorly tonight.

For reference, that's the Aces and Leaders of Omega and Zeta Squadrons. "OZ Quad." Catchy, if disappointing.

I was up against fully kitted BB-8 Poe, Esege with TLT and four bombs/Conners, and a naked Blount as filler. His was a slapdash squad, not practiced at all. His Blount didn't get into the action through poor starting position until the third or fourth round of combat. I unexpectedly stripped two shields from Poe right away, even though my formation was lined up to alpha-strike Esege. I was really afraid of those Bombs. Had I turned and pressed the advantage on Poe, I might have done better. Instead, for the second round of combat, I continued vectoring in on Esege. A bad dial choice resulted in me only getting three of my four FOs lined up to shoot Esege, and all my advantageous upgrades still only got three shields knocked off the K.

Then I was rightly bombed. My green dice were fickle. My following attacks on Esege put him at one hull remaining, three crits face up, but I couldn't finish him off before losing three of my squad.

My Omega Ace with PTL (but no Comm Relay), sole survivor for my endgame, proved hard for him to chase down and land the killing blow, and I did manage to score a kill on Esege at the final moment, but that was it.

One lesson learned is that I chose not to stress Zeta Leader for an extra Attack die at a crucial point, which would have allowed him the defensive advantage of Wired. I regretted it. I also failed to stock up on an Evade token for my Relay Omega Leader at one point, preferring to get a target lock and rely on that for added defense. Unfortunately he got shot down by the ship he hadn't target locked. And having only two Comm Relay cards in hand at the moment, I had a Stealth Device in the squad that I would have preferred swapping out for another Relay on my PTL Omega Ace in the endgame.

A few turns of better luck (like getting a Direct Hit in one of those three crits on Esege), a little better flying at a couple of key moments, and clearer thinking on how best to use the new upgrades, and I probably could have turned that game around. But my opponent could have done a number of things far more wisely too, so it's probably a wash. My list got beat by a build that posed a solid challenge.

I'm still intrigued by the possibilities of the OZ Quad. I think with skill and forethought I can get more solid results.

------

Side note.

Earlier in this thread I was generalizing the Quad FO uniques as a build that often left 8-9 points available for hull/shield upgrades. My bad... I was thinking of my builds before I had the Comm Relay (3 pts) to fill my Tech slots. So no, my build tonight came in at 99 points and a single Stealth Device was my only modification card. The bottom line is that fielding four unique FOs isn't just a few points away from being able to field a fifth filler TIE. It's a pretty full point total just with all the essential and natural upgrades.

It will be a challenge, and fly like old school tie advanced, with a ton more maneuverability.

You'll need to rely upon strong positioning range 1 shots, and leveraging the pilot abilities to make it work.

Hi, resurrected thread here.

After six weeks of test play, with a decent win/loss record, I'm taking my OZ Quad to the Covenant SC today.

A couple of key evolutions to my build: I now have my three highest PS ships with Comms Relay. I also have my three lowest PS ships with TIE Mk II engine, which turns out to be a lot more useful than at first I suspected. Those three ships all routinely self-stress so the chance to bug out of a furball with a 3 bank and still clear stress is huge.

I look forward to reporting back on my experiences here. Say hi if you're there so I can put names and faces to forum handles!

Good luck Paul!

Been having some qualified success with Jukebox Jax - 3 omegas with juke/comm and Carnor. Still not sure it's got the chops against thuglife, dash/corran or sithlords, though. Will keep plugging away!

There.. are.. FOUR TIEs!

Finished 3-2, ranked 13 of 35. My losses were to the eventual 2nd and 5th seeds. More to come...

Really intrigued by what your list ended up as and how you felt it went overall.

Hope you learn from the 13th place finish and move up 12 places in your next showing! Would love to hear a batrep or details, these TIE/FOs are wonderful little ships.

I don't think a 4 ship list is in unless it is a 4 PWT list. It seems more like either a 3 or 5 ship build is the next thing.

A 3 ship build of 2 to 3 Aces can pick off a TLT before it has the chance to attack.

5 Ship builds tend to have 2 Aces and 3 meatshields so they can win out on attrition removing TLTs faster than TLTs can remove ships.

A Swarm you want at least 7 but 8 would be better, however swarms are having a tough time against any ship with an Ace such as the last two lists.

it's not the HP so much as lack of offensive output

currently, only Omega and Zeta Leaders can punch above your typical Omega Juke + Relay, and the lot of them together only hit 95 points

currently, I'm most comfortable adding either Omega or Zeta Leaders as powerful filler aces to lists (such as Omega + 3 scimitar bombers) or fielding them as part of a slightly larger swarm

I gonna try out

Omega Leader(Juke+relay)

Zeta leader(Weapons guidance+wired)

Omega Ace(PtL)

Sigma Squadron(Stygium Particle Acc.)

All the ships have decent firepower, and if the opponent focus fires he is going to be hit by all the other strongish attacks.

What's the point of Weapons Guidance on Zeta Leader (or anyone else for that matter)? Is it just some extra insurance in case you don't roll any eyes?

basically