Well I responded to a post making the claim that no one is saying that Instigator negates Heavy . His rebuttal to my post is to say the Instigator is negating Heavy . You're not seeing how I might find that a bit amusing?

I said nothing of the sort. Instigator dosn't negate HEAVY. The HEAVY power works just fine. It simply dosn't work like you think it does. HEAVY is not a magic "I don't get attacked" quality.

The phantom squadrons created by the Instigator title causes the enemy squadron to have to attack a "real" squadron even if that "real" squadron is Heavy or put more succinctly Instigator negates the Heavy keyword.

The phantom squadrons cause the Engaged conditions. So do real squadrons. Do real squadrons negate HEAVY?

If we imagined a ship that caused the Engaged condition at a range of 2, it could cause the same situation. Engaged, must attack squadrons. Only squadrons in range are HEAVY. Would that ability negate HEAVY?

Heavy squadron, Instigator friendly to Heavy squadron, and unfriendly squadron . Despite the prior three circumstances the Unfriendly squadron MUST attack the Heavy squadron?!? Because it is an "actual squadron?"

By jove, I think you're starting to get it.

How is the engagement created by Instigator forcing you to attack a squadron that specifically says squadrons aren't forced to attack it?

that's not what HEAVY says. It doesn't say that squadron's CAN'T be forced to attack it, just that this exact ship doesn't do the forcing.

Here you go, a fresh email from ten minutes ago:

In response to your question:

Rules Question:
I'm writing to seek clarification on a situation involving the "Instigator" title for the Imperial Raider. If I have a squadron engaged with an enemy Raider and ALSO engaged by an enemy squadron WITH the "Heavy" keyword, am I forced to target the "Heavy" squadron as a result of being engaged by Instigator's "Phantom squadrons"? If so, why?

The squadron engaged with the Heavy enemy squadron can still attack the enemy Instigator. This is because the Heavy squadron is not a mandatory target (due to Heavy), and it is not possible to attack the “phantom squadrons."

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen

Game Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

So, final answer, NO, you DO NOT have to attack squadrons with the Heavy keyword when engaged by Instigator, for precisely the reasons given many times in this thread.

ok let me explain using pictures:

example 1: An x-wing enaged by 2 Tie/fo (ties A, and B)and 1 tie/b (Tie C)

In this example all Ties are valid targets (A, B, and c) and heavy has no impact

example 2: same as example 1 except now there is a Raider also in range

Once again all three ties are valid targets while the Raider (D) is not. this is because engagement requires that the x-wing shoots at Squadrons before the raider, this includes the "Heavy" Tie Bomber. once again heavy has no effect on the engagment

example 3: now we replace the Tie fighters with Instigator "ghost squadrons".

the ghosts apply Identical engagement rules that the Tie Fighters do forcing the X-wing to target A,B, or C, but not D (the raider) the only difference is A and B are no longer Valid targets leaving the x-wing with option C. Again Heavy does not actually effect the engagement in anyway

Edit: dang.... darn email....

im leaving this here because Dam it I spent time in PAINT

ok let me explain using pictures:

*snip*

Well, it was a valiant effort to visually represent your argument, even if it did turn out to be a fundamentally false premise.

Someone get this man a cool, frothy mug of internets for his trouble.

yay a ruling, finally.

Here you go, a fresh email from ten minutes ago:

In response to your question:

Rules Question:

I'm writing to seek clarification on a situation involving the "Instigator" title for the Imperial Raider. If I have a squadron engaged with an enemy Raider and ALSO engaged by an enemy squadron WITH the "Heavy" keyword, am I forced to target the "Heavy" squadron as a result of being engaged by Instigator's "Phantom squadrons"? If so, why?

The squadron engaged with the Heavy enemy squadron can still attack the enemy Instigator. This is because the Heavy squadron is not a mandatory target (due to Heavy), and it is not possible to attack the “phantom squadrons."

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen

Game Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

So, final answer, NO, you DO NOT have to attack squadrons with the Heavy keyword when engaged by Instigator, for precisely the reasons given many times in this thread.

Thank the Maker.

I'd also like to point out that I was right (I always am, even when I'm wrong)

ok let me explain using pictures:

*snip*

Well, it was a valiant effort to visually represent your argument, even if it did turn out to be a fundamentally false premise.

Someone get this man a cool, frothy mug of internets for his trouble.

Not unlike the xi7 vs Advanced Projectors debate

Here you go, a fresh email from ten minutes ago:

In response to your question:

Rules Question:

I'm writing to seek clarification on a situation involving the "Instigator" title for the Imperial Raider. If I have a squadron engaged with an enemy Raider and ALSO engaged by an enemy squadron WITH the "Heavy" keyword, am I forced to target the "Heavy" squadron as a result of being engaged by Instigator's "Phantom squadrons"? If so, why?

The squadron engaged with the Heavy enemy squadron can still attack the enemy Instigator. This is because the Heavy squadron is not a mandatory target (due to Heavy), and it is not possible to attack the “phantom squadrons."

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen

Game Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

So, final answer, NO, you DO NOT have to attack squadrons with the Heavy keyword when engaged by Instigator, for precisely the reasons given many times in this thread.

VICTORY!!!!!

Here you go, a fresh email from ten minutes ago:

In response to your question:

Rules Question:

I'm writing to seek clarification on a situation involving the "Instigator" title for the Imperial Raider. If I have a squadron engaged with an enemy Raider and ALSO engaged by an enemy squadron WITH the "Heavy" keyword, am I forced to target the "Heavy" squadron as a result of being engaged by Instigator's "Phantom squadrons"? If so, why?

The squadron engaged with the Heavy enemy squadron can still attack the enemy Instigator. This is because the Heavy squadron is not a mandatory target (due to Heavy), and it is not possible to attack the “phantom squadrons."

Thanks for playing!

James Kniffen

Game Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

So, final answer, NO, you DO NOT have to attack squadrons with the Heavy keyword when engaged by Instigator, for precisely the reasons given many times in this thread.

VICTORY!!!!!

Nuts to your Victory, IMPERIAL!

ok let me explain using pictures:

*****Snipped the very nicely done pics out *****

Did you do one with the phantom squadrons, no TIE Bomber and a big green check mark on the raider?

I'm holding out that the next FAQ will rectify this Falicy!

Not unlike the xi7 vs Advanced Projectors debate

On an Aside:

I had someone state that the FAQ was irrelevant, and they were going to play all of their games with APs taking the Plural as being the permission. "It says ZONES, so I will use ZONES."

... So I told him that I'd play against him with Dominator with SW-7 Ions, and since it says 2 Shields from Hull Zones, and plural is permission, I'd spend 7 Shields (2 Front, 2 Left Side, 2 Right Side, 1 Rear) to roll 3 Reds and 10 Blues against him with my first salvo.

He then decided the FAQ wasn't as crazy as he thought.

ok let me explain using pictures:

*****Snipped the very nicely done pics out *****

Did you do one with the phantom squadrons, no TIE Bomber and a big green check mark on the raider?

Lol dras. Glad to see a ruling on this finally.

Finally! It's good to see this answered

Should I make a really self-satisfied gloating post?

It's good to have a ruling, one way or another.

Just to confirm what has allready been posted (James response bolded for calrity):

Hello, Henrik,

In response to your question:

Rules Question:
Hi! I have a question about Armada, spcificaly about the Instigator title and heavy squadrons. If the Instigator is engegeing an enemy squadorn with it's two imaginary squads, the enemy squad can still attack ships as the engement rule says you must attack engaged squads "if possible" and if Instigator is the only source of engegement, it clearly is not possible to attack a squadron. But if we add in a squadron with the Heavy keyword, it then becomes possible to attack a squadron, so would the enemy squad then be forced to attack the heavy suqadron instead of a ship? The heavy squad, as per the key word defenition, can not prevent attacks on ships, but in this case the imaginary squads can as they don't have the heavy key word.

The enemy ship can attack the Instigator despite the presence of the squadrons with Heavy. The enemy squadron cannot attack the “imaginary” squadrons created by the Instigator (since it isn’t possible), and the Heavy keyword means the enemy squadron doesn’t have to attack those heavy squadrons. The Heavy keyword is intended to remove that Heavy squadron from the set of squadrons that must be attacked before the ship can be attacked.

Should I make a really self-satisfied gloating post?

It's good to have a ruling, one way or another.

No, it's better to shake hands, say, "Good Game!" and walk away with the satisfaction that your opponent knows they've been defeated haha. It's the gentlemanly thing to do. For the record, I'll count myself on the losing side although I weighed both arguments as being equally valid. But it's nice to have an answer. Now what?

Now what?

The usual. We find something else to argue about.