I'm solidly in the "you don't have to attack the heavy squadron" camp, because the Heavy attribute explicitly states that squadron does not prevent you from attacking ships. Seems pretty open and shut to me.

I can certainly see why you guys disagree, but because:

1) the title is clearly not intended to impact target selection, only movement options, and

2) the squadron explicitly does not limit target selection as a result of engagement with it,

there is no effect in play that limits target selection, so you're free to attack a ship.

Redacted.

I actually also interpret the the interaction between Instigator and a friendly Heavy fighter as forcing enemy fighters to attack a heavy squadron.

Lets do a quick check by conditions:

My X-Wing finds itself at distance one of both Instigator and a TIE Bomber. I want to shoot the raider.

1. Am I engaged by an enemy figher? Yes, the Bomber. But that Bomber has heavy, which does not preclude me from moving or shooting the raider. So far, so good.

2. I am engaged by instigator. So I cannot move. Can I still shoot the raider? As the email previously posted states, the rule says "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship". That Bomber is still an engaged squadron. It is possible to attack it. Ergo, I must attack it. Not because it has engaged me and is preventing me from shooting ships through its engagement, but because Instigator has engaged me and is forcing me to shoot at squadrons if possible. Which is why that email before is only tangentially related, as in that example it was not possible to shoot at any enemy squadrons.

That said, I'm sure someone has sent another email about this, looking forward to the official ruling, as is a really rules lawyery question

But you are not engaged with Instigator. You are engaged by "a heavy squadron and two additional squadrons". It doesn't really matter what you're engaged with, though (that's only relevant for Grit), the fact is, you're engaged. And that requires you to, if possible, attack a squadron. So you try to attack one of the phantom squadrons - which you can't, because they're not really there. So then you try to attack the Heavy, which then says "actually, don't mind me, you're free to attack the ship if you want". That's literally the only thing Heavy does, and it overrides the usual engagement rules.

But then Heavy says "hey you don't need to attack me, despite engagement."

Yes, but the phantom squadrons from the instigator title don't have "heavy". Other than being imaginary, they (should) be imposing all the normal engagement rules, baring specific exceptions outlined in rules somewhere.

1) the title is clearly not INTENDED to impact target selection,

Intended. Which is what, I think, most people have been saying. Strictly rules as written says one thing, rules as intended (which they will presumable clarify sooner or later) says something else.

But then Heavy says "hey you don't need to attack me, despite engagement."

Yes, but the phantom squadrons from the instigator title don't have "heavy". Other than being imaginary, they (should) be imposing all the normal engagement rules, baring specific exceptions outlined in rules somewhere.

And they do. But don't forget, it isn't "each squadron at distance 1" which causes you to be forced to attack a squadron. It's the binary "engagement condition", which doesn't care what you're engaged with. You're engaged, so you must attack a squadron if possible. The phantom squadrons can't be attacked, and the heavy squadrons don't have to be attacked.

The Heavy keyword does not say "if an opponent is only engaged with Heavy squadrons, it is not prevented from attacking ships". It says, explicitly and literally, "you do not prevent squadrons from attacking ships". So a Heavy squadron's presence simply cannot interfere with your ability to attack whatever you want. This is RAW.

Doesn't matter if the phantom squadrons can't be attacked, they cause engagement, with all that entails. If you replaced the instigator with 2 tie fighters, then the engaged rebel squadrons would be forced to fire at either the ties, or the heavies and no one would question that, no one would be arguing that the heavy bombers allowed them to fire on ships. The instigator title us simply making it so that, instead of 2 real squadrons imposing the restriction it is 2 imaginary squadrons.

Keep in mind that, when you are engaged, you don't have to shoot at the squadrons engaging you, you simply have to shoot at squadrons. The 2 imaginary squadrons require you to shoot at squadrons, the fact that the only legal targets have heavy is irrelevant. It is the (lack of) special rules on the imaginary squadrons that is causing the issue.

Put another way. Your x-wings are engaged by 3 squadrons, one with heavy and 2 that are not legal targets because of a special rule. Can you target a nearby ship?

Put another way. Your x-wings are engaged by 3 squadrons, one with heavy and 2 that are not legal targets because of a special rule. Can you target a nearby ship?

Heavy causes engagement too. It's not a fake engagement, it's not a partial engagement. It's engagement. Heavy simply doesn't bar you from attacking a ship instead (or moving, but that's not relevant here.)

I'm not sure if the misunderstanding comes about because people think that Heavy squadrons don't engage other squadrons or what, but if I'm at range 1 of your Heavy I'm engaged. Heavy modifies how engagement treats that squadron, not whether engagement is happening in the first place.

Put another way. Your x-wings are engaged by 3 squadrons, one with heavy and 2 that are not legal targets because of a special rule. Can you target a nearby ship?

Yes, you can.

"Brevity is... wit."

I think at this point we are arguing in circles. Both arguments have been made in a clear, concise fashion. Has anyone sent that email yet?

Sent one a few days ago. Will post the respnce if I get one.

So then you try to attack the Heavy, which then says "actually, don't mind me, you're free to attack the ship if you want". That's literally the only thing Heavy does, and it overrides the usual engagement rules.

Not to re-open, because I think we both clearly understand each other's interpretation, we simply disagree. But I don't think that bomber says anything, because he's already had his turn with the conversation stick, except "Oh god, wtf! Why are you shooting at me? There's not actually anyone there! Oh god why?! Help! Help! I'm being opressed! Come see the violence inherent in the system! F--- YOU INSTIG-Crackle fizz static-"

Put another way. Your x-wings are engaged by 3 squadrons, one with heavy and 2 that are not legal targets because of a special rule. Can you target a nearby ship?

Yes, you can.

Really? Because the special rule I was referring to is, of course, escort on the heavy. In this context there isn't really any difference between 2 squadrons that you can't target because a nearby squadron has escort and 2 squadrons you can't target because they don't actually exist. In both circumstances you are engaged with 2 squadrons that don't have heavy. since some of the squadrons you are engaged with don't have heavy, you must attack squadrons if possible.

Yet another way. Ignoring the Instigator for a moment, if you are engaged with X squadrons, how many of them have to be heavy in order for you to attack a ship? X, right? All the squadrons you are engaged with have to have heavy for you to attack a ship. Now, you are engaged with the Instigator and some heavy squadrons. You are engaged with Y squadrons but only Y-2 of them have heavy. Since not all the squadrons you are engaged with have heavy, you must attack squadrons, if possible.

I think it's going to be that you don't have to attack the heavy.

Going in order:

Am I (I being a vanilla squadron) engaged?

Yes.

What am I engaged by?

2 imaginary and 1 real squadron.

Can I attack all 3 squadrons?

No.

If I can't attack all 3 squadrons, which ones can I attack?

The heavy, but not the 2 imaginary.

Do I have to attack heavy squadrons?

No.

So the answer, as I see it, based on the email ruling and the heavy keyword is that my squadron can attack a ship.

What my squadron can't do however, is move away--the instigator title stops it from moving.

Really? Because the special rule I was referring to is, of course, escort on the heavy. In this context there isn't really any difference between 2 squadrons that you can't target because a nearby squadron has escort and 2 squadrons you can't target because they don't actually exist. In both circumstances you are engaged with 2 squadrons that don't have heavy. since some of the squadrons you are engaged with don't have heavy, you must attack squadrons if possible.

Yet another way. Ignoring the Instigator for a moment, if you are engaged with X squadrons, how many of them have to be heavy in order for you to attack a ship? X, right? All the squadrons you are engaged with have to have heavy for you to attack a ship. Now, you are engaged with the Instigator and some heavy squadrons. You are engaged with Y squadrons but only Y-2 of them have heavy. Since not all the squadrons you are engaged with have heavy, you must attack squadrons, if possible.

Wait, what?

Escort: (Squadrons you are engaged with cannot attack squadrons without escort unless performing a counter attack.)

So if you are engaged with 2 whatevers, and 1 Heavy Escort then if you attack squadrons you have to attack the Escort. In this case, you also can't move, or attack a ship (per Heavy) because you are engaged to two squadrons. So you can either attack no one, or the Heavy. Of course this hypothetical is ridiculous because no such squadron exists, nor is it likely to ever exist.

Now let's take your goofy example and apply it to the Instigator. You are engaged, as if by two squadrons. Because they are fake they don't prevent you from attacking ships. You are also engaged by a Heavy squadron, which does not prevent you from attacking a ship. So what prevents you from attacking a ship? Nothing? Exactly.

I'll illustrate the differences so that you can see why your hypothetical made up squadron is different from this situation.

The Instigator's fake squadrons explicitly do not prevent an opposing squadron from attacking a ship, right? Ok. In your example, the two squadrons of whatever do prevent you from attacking a ship, because they are real squadrons. Now you can't attack the Instigator's fake squadrons because they don't actually exist. You can't attack the whatevers because you are engaged to another squadron with Escort.

So in one example, the squadrons you cannot attack prevent you from attacking a ship.

In the other example the squadrons you cannot attack do not prevent you from attacking a ship.

You may continue to disagree, but you hypothetical is invalid, no matter what the outcome is because the two situations are different.

I agree, it is GOING TO BE that you can attack a ship, but it isn't now. If you are engaged you must attack squadrons if possible. The only thing that changes that is if ALL of the squadrons you are engaged with have heavy. the 2 imaginary squadrons don't have heavy, so that isn't a factor.

I agree, it is GOING TO BE that you can attack a ship, but it isn't now. If you are engaged you must attack squadrons if possible. The only thing that changes that is if ALL of the squadrons you are engaged with have heavy. the 2 imaginary squadrons don't have heavy, so that isn't a factor.

Obviously there is disagreement about even what the RAW is.

Because they are fake they don't prevent you from attacking ships.

The Instigator's fake squadrons explicitly do not prevent an opposing squadron from attacking a ship, right?

Wrong. Because they are fake they cannot be targeted. It is the actual rules that say, if you are engaged and have no valid squadron targets, you may attack a ship.

The fact that they are fake is not (directly) allowing you to target ships, it is the fact that they are not legal targets.

Really? Because the special rule I was referring to is, of course, escort on the heavy. In this context there isn't really any difference between 2 squadrons that you can't target because a nearby squadron has escort and 2 squadrons you can't target because they don't actually exist. In both circumstances you are engaged with 2 squadrons that don't have heavy. since some of the squadrons you are engaged with don't have heavy, you must attack squadrons if possible.

Yet another way. Ignoring the Instigator for a moment, if you are engaged with X squadrons, how many of them have to be heavy in order for you to attack a ship? X, right? All the squadrons you are engaged with have to have heavy for you to attack a ship. Now, you are engaged with the Instigator and some heavy squadrons. You are engaged with Y squadrons but only Y-2 of them have heavy. Since not all the squadrons you are engaged with have heavy, you must attack squadrons, if possible.

Wait, what?

Escort: (Squadrons you are engaged with cannot attack squadrons without escort unless performing a counter attack.)

So if you are engaged with 2 whatevers, and 1 Heavy Escort then if you attack squadrons you have to attack the Escort. In this case, you also can't move, or attack a ship (per Heavy) because you are engaged to two squadrons. So you can either attack no one, or the Heavy. Of course this hypothetical is ridiculous because no such squadron exists, nor is it likely to ever exist.

Now let's take your goofy example and apply it to the Instigator. You are engaged, as if by two squadrons. Because they are fake they don't prevent you from attacking ships. You are also engaged by a Heavy squadron, which does not prevent you from attacking a ship. So what prevents you from attacking a ship? Nothing? Exactly.

I'll illustrate the differences so that you can see why your hypothetical made up squadron is different from this situation.

The Instigator's fake squadrons explicitly do not prevent an opposing squadron from attacking a ship, right? Ok. In your example, the two squadrons of whatever do prevent you from attacking a ship, because they are real squadrons. Now you can't attack the Instigator's fake squadrons because they don't actually exist. You can't attack the whatevers because you are engaged to another squadron with Escort.

So in one example, the squadrons you cannot attack prevent you from attacking a ship.

In the other example the squadrons you cannot attack do not prevent you from attacking a ship.

You may continue to disagree, but you hypothetical is invalid, no matter what the outcome is because the two situations are different.

Actually, an escort fighter could be given heavy through intel, which based on positioning could then not be afflicting the other two non escort squadrons, creating the hypothetical propsed by Forgotten. Which IMO, is a pretty win hypothetical, granted not perfectly analogous.

Thank You

The important part is that the imaginary fighters are not legal targets, but otherwise confer all the restrictions of engagement (until ruled otherwise). It is the game rules that then take over and allow ship targeting if there are no other squadron targets.

Np. I'll be honest, I first read that hypothetical and i was like wtf is he talking about with this crazy special rule, and then you were like "yo its escort" -mic drop- and my mind asplodes.

Because they are fake they don't prevent you from attacking ships.

The Instigator's fake squadrons explicitly do not prevent an opposing squadron from attacking a ship, right?

Wrong. Because they are fake they cannot be targeted. It is the actual rules that say, if you are engaged and have no valid squadron targets, you may attack a ship.

The fact that they are fake is not (directly) allowing you to target ships, it is the fact that they are not legal targets.

The email answer says that they don't prevent you from attacking ships. My claim is that they don't prevent you from attacking ships. I understand your argument, I'm saying that I think it's wrong because the imaginary squadrons don't prevent you from attacking ships.

Actually, an escort fighter could be given heavy through intel, which based on positioning could then not be afflicting the other two non escort squadrons, creating the hypothetical propsed by Forgotten. Which IMO, is a pretty win hypothetical.

I did not consider that. It's still a bad hypothetical as far as referencing the question at hand because it is different. If all the squadrons you are engaged with have Heavy (per Intel) then you must attack an Escort if you attack a squadron, but you don't need to attack a squadron and are free to move.

If a nearby friendly ship has Intel that causes an enemy Escort to be treated as Heavy, but other engaged squadrons do not have Heavy than the situation that I mentioned applies. You can't attack a ship because you are engaged a squadron that prevents you from attacking a ship, so you must attack a squadron (if you choose to attack), and therefore you must attack the Escort that has Heavy.

Yes, it's a neat trick, but it still doesn't respond to the current question.

The email answer says that they don't prevent you from attacking ships.

The email answer is about a situation with no other squadrons and explicitly says they don't prevent attacking ships BECAUSE the 2 squadrons are not legal targets

Squadrons can attack ships despite the presence of the Instigator . Since it isn’t possible for those squadrons to attack the two illusory squadrons that are engaging them, they can attack the Instigator or another ship.

It is quite clear that it is the imaginary squadron's inability to be a target that is allowing the targeting of ships. If there were other valid squadron targets isn't addressed.

I know it isn't addressed. Isn't that exactly why the question was asked? The email didn't address legal targets, it said it isn't possible to attack them. Different things can be different when context isn't perfectly clear.

Anyway, we'll find out how it work when they respond. No sense in in continuing the tomfoolery.

Because they are fake they don't prevent you from attacking ships.

The Instigator's fake squadrons explicitly do not prevent an opposing squadron from attacking a ship, right?

Wrong. Because they are fake they cannot be targeted. It is the actual rules that say, if you are engaged and have no valid squadron targets, you may attack a ship.

The fact that they are fake is not (directly) allowing you to target ships, it is the fact that they are not legal targets.

The email answer says that they don't prevent you from attacking ships. My claim is that they don't prevent you from attacking ships. I understand your argument, I'm saying that I think it's wrong because the imaginary squadrons don't prevent you from attacking ships.

They don't prevent you from attacking ships in that one situation because there are no legal squadron targets around - thus you are following the rules of Engagement where you "Must attack an engaged squadron rather than a ship if possible ."

In this case there are legal squadron targets around, therefore if you follow the rules of Engagement (because of Instigator's "phantom squadrons") then you could be required to attack the Heavy squadrons rather than the ship, because it is possible to do so.