If I have a raider with the instigator title surrounded by friendly heavy ships and a enemy figher is engaged with both the bombers and the instigator, can the enemy fighter shoot the Raider? When you are engaged you must shoot at a fighter before you can shoot at a ship I thought.

While engaged, enemy squadrons must attack squadrons if possible, which would be possible for them to do. So therefore yes, I believe they would be required to attack the Heavy squadrons.

In my opinion this is a tricky question. Others think I'm just crayz and claim it's obvious that the enemy fighter would be free to attack the ship.

Bomber: "You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving."

The question here then becomes who is preventing the attack on the ship since it can not be any of the heavy squads? The non existing squads of the instigator though has no heavy key word, so they could do it as far as I can tell.

If it's only the instigator then the non existing squads can not prevent attacking the ship but only becouse the engage rule says to attack squads "if possible" and it's just not possible to attack the non existing squads.

Probably the squadrons could attack the ship.

I see no reason why they couldn't. Heavy means that squadrons can (effectively) ignore the consequences of engagement. The imaginary squadrons do not inhibit the attacking of a ship.

Engagement says that enemy squadrons must be attacked if possible, but Heavy overrides that for Heavy squadrons.

Probably the squadrons could attack the ship.

I see no reason why they couldn't. Heavy means that squadrons can (effectively) ignore the consequences of engagement. The imaginary squadrons do not inhibit the attacking of a ship.

Engagement says that enemy squadrons must be attacked if possible, but Heavy overrides that for Heavy squadrons.

I'd say the opposite - Heavy modifies just the engagement for that squadron, but there are now two additional "phantom" squadrons engaging that do not have Heavy . So, because of engagement, (and without Heavy on those Phantom squadrons) the enemy fighters have to shoot squadrons if able. There are squadrons to shoot (that just happen to all have Heavy .

So no, I'd say that if there are any squadrons also engaged with the fighters around the Instigator, they have to shoot the squadrons before they can engage the Raider.

Okay, let's roll this back, people... We finally got an answer to this just a couple of days ago in a thread specific to the Instigator.

Now, with that out of the way, let us also say that the restriction on not attacking ships is also removed by heavy...

Ergo, you may still attack the Raider.

The question answered by that mail had no heavy squads involved. I don't see how that answers the question in this thread.

It does, given the direction the question went after the OP, which was answered immediately.

Heavy does not make you have to shoot at Fighters. That answered Immediately.

As an addition , the Raider Instigator Ghost fighters do not obstruct those attacks either , it is certainly possible to attack the Raider.

Two parts.

Two Answer Fragments.

One Answer.

At least, its the most complete one that I can see that doesn't leave holes...

Dras is, as usual, spot on. The presence of Heavy squadrons has no effect on your ability to attack a ship.

Heavy keyword states:

You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving.

Engagement from the RRG:

While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy squadrons.

• An engaged squadron cannot move.

• When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

• A squadron does not engage ships or friendly squadrons.

• If line of sight between two squadrons is obstructed, those squadrons are not engaged even if at distance 1 of each other, though they can still attack each other.

• A squadron is no longer engaged if the last squadron engaged with it is destroyed.

• Squadrons do not engage other squadrons while moving even if a portion of the range ruler is at distance 1 of an enemy squadron. Only the starting and final positions matter for engagement.

Following the rules for both Heavy and Engagement - Both the Heavies and the Instigator are engaging squadrons that are distance 1. Because Instigator is causing the meaningful (non-heavy) engagement, the attacking squadron must check for an engaged squadron to declare as a target before it may attack an enemy ship. Therefore it must attack the Heavy squadron.

Thanks for the help. The Email seems like it pertains only if there are no other squadrons. The weird wording of engaged makes it seems like you do have to shoot the bombers even though they are heavy. Super annoying...

It seems to me the rule is also written with the '2' squadrons mentioned so the likes of the millenium falcon cannot fly off because it has grit (I think that's the rule).

Heavy keyword states:

You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving.

Engagement from the RRG:

While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy squadrons.

• An engaged squadron cannot move.

• When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

• A squadron does not engage ships or friendly squadrons.

• If line of sight between two squadrons is obstructed, those squadrons are not engaged even if at distance 1 of each other, though they can still attack each other.

• A squadron is no longer engaged if the last squadron engaged with it is destroyed.

• Squadrons do not engage other squadrons while moving even if a portion of the range ruler is at distance 1 of an enemy squadron. Only the starting and final positions matter for engagement.

Following the rules for both Heavy and Engagement - Both the Heavies and the Instigator are engaging squadrons that are distance 1. Because Instigator is causing the meaningful (non-heavy) engagement, the attacking squadron must check for an engaged squadron to declare as a target before it may attack an enemy ship. Therefore it must attack the Heavy squadron.

Except that it also explicitly does not need to attack the Heavy squadrons.

Thanks for the help. The Email seems like it pertains only if there are no other squadrons. The weird wording of engaged makes it seems like you do have to shoot the bombers even though they are heavy. Super annoying...

You don't have to. The card ability (Heavy) overrides the engagement rules. Because that's what cards do.

Thanks for the help. The Email seems like it pertains only if there are no other squadrons. The weird wording of engaged makes it seems like you do have to shoot the bombers even though they are heavy. Super annoying...

You don't have to. The card ability (Heavy) overrides the engagement rules. Because that's what cards do.

Also we were told that Instigator "squadrons" don't affect the ability of squadrons to attack ships.

Heavy keyword states:

You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving.

Engagement from the RRG:

While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy squadrons.

• An engaged squadron cannot move.

• When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

• A squadron does not engage ships or friendly squadrons.

• If line of sight between two squadrons is obstructed, those squadrons are not engaged even if at distance 1 of each other, though they can still attack each other.

• A squadron is no longer engaged if the last squadron engaged with it is destroyed.

• Squadrons do not engage other squadrons while moving even if a portion of the range ruler is at distance 1 of an enemy squadron. Only the starting and final positions matter for engagement.

Following the rules for both Heavy and Engagement - Both the Heavies and the Instigator are engaging squadrons that are distance 1. Because Instigator is causing the meaningful (non-heavy) engagement, the attacking squadron must check for an engaged squadron to declare as a target before it may attack an enemy ship. Therefore it must attack the Heavy squadron.

It's also explicitly stated in the RRG that the rules on the card supercede the rules in the RRG, thus, you can freely attack the Raider.

Heavy keyword states:

You do not prevent engaged squadrons from attacking ships or moving.

Engagement from the RRG:

While a squadron is at distance 1 of one or more enemy squadrons, it is engaged with all of those enemy squadrons.

• An engaged squadron cannot move.

• When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship.

• A squadron does not engage ships or friendly squadrons.

• If line of sight between two squadrons is obstructed, those squadrons are not engaged even if at distance 1 of each other, though they can still attack each other.

• A squadron is no longer engaged if the last squadron engaged with it is destroyed.

• Squadrons do not engage other squadrons while moving even if a portion of the range ruler is at distance 1 of an enemy squadron. Only the starting and final positions matter for engagement.

Following the rules for both Heavy and Engagement - Both the Heavies and the Instigator are engaging squadrons that are distance 1. Because Instigator is causing the meaningful (non-heavy) engagement, the attacking squadron must check for an engaged squadron to declare as a target before it may attack an enemy ship. Therefore it must attack the Heavy squadron.

It's also explicitly stated in the RRG that the rules on the card supercede the rules in the RRG, thus, you can freely attack the Raider.

Nonsense. "Heavy" doesn't remove the engaged condition. It just removes the limits that are generally placed on the enemy by being engaged. That's why they used so many words, instead of just "This squadron does not engage the enemy."

Since the ghost squadrons cause the full "engaged" status, and the heavy squadrons are still engaged, enemy squadrons must attack the heavy.

So what you're saying is that a Heavy squadron is preventing you from attacking a ship. And that you don't see any problem with that.

Let me put it differently.

Consider the case where the Raider does not have the Instigator title. The enemy fighter is engaged by the friendly Heavy squadrons but, of course, that doesn't prevent it from attacking the Raider - because that's what Heavy does.

Now add Instigator. The enemy fighter is now engaged by two additional imaginary squadrons. This does not change the fighter's condition (it was already engaged by the heavies), provide any new legal targets for it to shoot at, or otherwise negate the Heavy keyword. So why would it now be forced to shoot at squadrons that explicitly indicate the opposite?

Nonsense. "Heavy" doesn't remove the engaged condition. It just removes the limits that are generally placed on the enemy by being engaged. That's why they used so many words, instead of just "This squadron does not engage the enemy."

Since the ghost squadrons cause the full "engaged" status, and the heavy squadrons are still engaged, enemy squadrons must attack the heavy.

Nonsense. No one says that Heavy squadrons don't engage.

What the hell does "full "engaged"" mean? The Heavy keyword is fully engaged, but it modifies how Engaged interacts with that squadron . Heavy squadrons do not interrupt my ability to attack ships despite engagement . That's what heavy is. Heavy is modifying the conditions of engagement at it related to interactions between the chosen squadron and the heavy squadron.

As much as I'm on the side of the squads being able to attack ships...I can see this one going the other way.

I actually also interpret the the interaction between Instigator and a friendly Heavy fighter as forcing enemy fighters to attack a heavy squadron.

Lets do a quick check by conditions:

My X-Wing finds itself at distance one of both Instigator and a TIE Bomber. I want to shoot the raider.

1. Am I engaged by an enemy figher? Yes, the Bomber. But that Bomber has heavy, which does not preclude me from moving or shooting the raider. So far, so good.

2. I am engaged by instigator. So I cannot move. Can I still shoot the raider? As the email previously posted states, the rule says "When a squadron attacks, it must attack an engaged squadron if possible rather than an enemy ship". That Bomber is still an engaged squadron. It is possible to attack it. Ergo, I must attack it. Not because it has engaged me and is preventing me from shooting ships through its engagement, but because Instigator has engaged me and is forcing me to shoot at squadrons if possible. Which is why that email before is only tangentially related, as in that example it was not possible to shoot at any enemy squadrons.

That said, I'm sure someone has sent another email about this, looking forward to the official ruling, as is a really rules lawyery question

I agree that RAW currently you would need to attack the heavy squadrons, but it is prett clear that the intent of the instigator title is not to limit target selection, just movement, so I expect it to be FAQed.

If the ruling on the instigator had been that squadrons could not attack OTHER ships, I think it would be different.

I would agree that RAW you would need to attack the heavy squadrons.

The previous example where they said that Instigator doesn't affect your ability to attack ships is only supposing that the squadrons attempting the attack have no other squadrons engaged simultaneously with the Instigator - they still follow the wording from Engagement on "must attack an engaged squadron if possible" - it's impossible to attack an egaged squadron because there is no engaged squadron nearby, so they can instead attack the Instigator. Having other squadrons in engagement changes things.

But then Heavy says "hey you don't need to attack me, despite engagement."