Force users can attempt any Force power and depending on what they want to do there is a cost of FP that must be met.

So basically you give all force powers for free, and adjust the FP requirement for every effect?

Yep.

May I suggest a different approach, which goes with the normal rules and is in fact a bit more ralistic? In-Game XP Spending. Tell your players, they may attempt any force power during game, if they have the XP to buy it. That would represent such a force-epiphany nicely imo.

I don't really want to use the force power trees. I want to keep it light and simple.

Like in the old WEG? Believe me down that road lies nitpicky discussions with players till no end. The trees are the first really good force-leraning rule I have seen in over 16 years as a Star Wars GM. The rules are set and the player can read and see what he can do. No stupid discussion ensues, no stalling of the game, no aggravated co-players.

Seriously it happened several times with different players. Led to me banning force powers altogether, because it was so vague.

Force users can attempt any Force power and depending on what they want to do there is a cost of FP that must be met.

So basically you give all force powers for free, and adjust the FP requirement for every effect?

Yep.

May I suggest a different approach, which goes with the normal rules and is in fact a bit more ralistic? In-Game XP Spending. Tell your players, they may attempt any force power during game, if they have the XP to buy it. That would represent such a force-epiphany nicely imo.

I don't really want to use the force power trees. I want to keep it light and simple.

Like in the old WEG? Believe me down that road lies nitpicky discussions with players till no end. The trees are the first really good force-leraning rule I have seen in over 16 years as a Star Wars GM. The rules are set and the player can read and see what he can do. No stupid discussion ensues, no stalling of the game, no aggravated co-players.

Seriously it happened several times with different players. Led to me banning force powers altogether, because it was so vague.

I am playing with the kids so there are debates on what can be done.

I am playing with the kids so there are debates on what can be done.

Well that is different then. Go Darther! ;D

I am playing with the kids so there are debates on what can be done.

Well that is different then. Go Darther! ;D

Yes I wouldn't play this way with an adult group unless I was sure it was a mature group that trusted the GM to adjudicate things. But with an adult group I would probably play more by the book. The kids are wonderful RPers but really don't care doe rules so they just rely on me for rules and they just play the game.

Well then you handle the trees and you are good. cause the trees make it easy.

Well then you handle the trees and you are good. cause the trees make it easy.

I use the trees as rough guidelines.

The more I think over some of the points raised here and elsewhere the more I think that (for me at least), The Force Awakens made their new "Canon" seem far too much like a "Legend" to really want to take it seriously, at least for my role playing taste. It simply went too hard over into spectacle.

For example, the idea that after 30 years, a seducer and his silly looking whiny (? hard to describe how I see that character?)stolen apprentice get to start up a new force tradition, yet Luke in his self imposed sabbatical is the canonical (and the entire last word on the subject) "Last Jedi"... is just kind of silly. With Luke wandered off, someone else would have restarted a Jedi order.

The whole concept of the "Treasure Map" is kind of silly. How they are going to make that make any kind of sense will be interesting to see.

A lot of the other things that yank "accepted notions" around just seem like somebody saying (as someone here did) "Lets crank up the pacing to 11!" "No, don't have them sitting floating somewhere waiting for a preplanned time to attack like in RoTJ - I want to see Hyperspace! More Lights! More Tension!" "S***! We're running long in editing! Compress Compress CompressCompress!" "**** the story, Ludicrous Speed Ahead!"

The whole concept of the "Treasure Map" is kind of silly. How they are going to make that make any kind of sense will be interesting to see.

They finished with the treasure map. It led Rey to Luke. Why they needed the map rather than just the coordinates of the system is beyond me, but, well, welcome to Disney/JJ Abrams.

The whole concept of the "Treasure Map" is kind of silly. How they are going to make that make any kind of sense will be interesting to see.

They finished with the treasure map. It led Rey to Luke. Why they needed the map rather than just the coordinates of the system is beyond me, but, well, welcome to Disney/JJ Abrams.

Because hyper space routes in Star wars have never been linear. So you can't take a straight line to the destination. You need the route.

The whole concept of the "Treasure Map" is kind of silly. How they are going to make that make any kind of sense will be interesting to see.

They finished with the treasure map. It led Rey to Luke. Why they needed the map rather than just the coordinates of the system is beyond me, but, well, welcome to Disney/JJ Abrams.

Because hyper space routes in Star wars have never been linear. So you can't take a straight line to the destination. You need the route.

That's what the navicomps are for. To calculate those routes. But you don't need a map that shows all the various interim places Luke had been to get to where he is.

The whole concept of the "Treasure Map" is kind of silly. How they are going to make that make any kind of sense will be interesting to see.

They finished with the treasure map. It led Rey to Luke. Why they needed the map rather than just the coordinates of the system is beyond me, but, well, welcome to Disney/JJ Abrams.

Because hyper space routes in Star wars have never been linear. So you can't take a straight line to the destination. You need the route.

That's what the navicomps are for. To calculate those routes. But you don't need a map that shows all the various interim places Luke had been to get to where he is.

There you are mistaken: Navi Computers in Star Wars are not like real world Navigational aids. They store the routes, the calculating has to be done by a Astrogator. Else the Astrogation skill wouldn't be needed. That is also the reason why you have to install route updates regularily and there is guild for that. So yeah, the whole map thing IS within the established rules.

The whole concept of the "Treasure Map" is kind of silly. How they are going to make that make any kind of sense will be interesting to see.

They finished with the treasure map. It led Rey to Luke. Why they needed the map rather than just the coordinates of the system is beyond me, but, well, welcome to Disney/JJ Abrams.

Because hyper space routes in Star wars have never been linear. So you can't take a straight line to the destination. You need the route.

That's what the navicomps are for. To calculate those routes. But you don't need a map that shows all the various interim places Luke had been to get to where he is.

There you are mistaken: Navi Computers in Star Wars are not like real world Navigational aids. They store the routes, the calculating has to be done by a Astrogator. Else the Astrogation skill wouldn't be needed. That is also the reason why you have to install route updates regularily and there is guild for that. So yeah, the whole map thing IS within the established rules.

From the AoR Core Book

navicomputers are primarily used to generate and solve the incredibly complex calculations needed to make a safe jump through hyperspace.

The Asteogation skill is for programming the Navicomputer so generating the route is a combination of the navigator and computer.

The routes leading to Luke could have also been uncharted or undocumented within a Navicomp.

There you are mistaken: Navi Computers in Star Wars are not like real world Navigational aids. They store the routes, the calculating has to be done by a Astrogator. Else the Astrogation skill wouldn't be needed. That is also the reason why you have to install route updates regularily and there is guild for that. So yeah, the whole map thing IS within the established rules.

From the AoR Core Book

navicomputers are primarily used to generate and solve the incredibly complex calculations needed to make a safe jump through hyperspace.

The Asteogation skill is for programming the Navicomputer so generating the route is a combination of the navigator and computer.

You're both kind of right. Given the co-ordinates of a planet in the galaxy, a navicomputer will calculate a route to that system. You DO only require co-ordinates to get there. However, pre-plotted routes are incredibly helpful and a routine part of practical hyperspace travel. Without all the navigational data of the "routes", you can only make small jumps, gather the information you need about the local systems, gravity wells in the region, etc., plot your next little jump and so on. The further you jump without properly pre-plotted navigational data, the more likely you are to run into some black hole that wasn't documented and never be heard of again. A navicomputer can take co-ordinates and "fill in the blanks" to make a route, even a new one between two systems that people don't normally fly between, but the more of a blank piece of paper it has to start with, the harder that gets.

So where Luke is and how remote it is are key to this. Co-ordinates might be fine if the planet is just tucked off the Permian way somewhere that nobody ever goes. But if he's off in Wildspace a proper route might be extremely valuable and incalculably faster / safer (the two are a trade-off with each other).

Which still makes my statement valid! A Navi/Computer is storing known routes and is helping an Astrogator to plan the way of travel. It does however not create a route by just putting in coordinates. The map leading to Luke makes actually way more sense now that I think about it. You don't want somebody to have the coordinates, so you make the map basically useless by not showing the route's point of starting. It's like in The Last Crusade, where Henry Jones Sr. had the map, but not the starting coordinates. Those were discovered by his son. Thus, two parts, R2-D2 shows where in the Galaxy that map fits in, so they now know where to fly to take that route and come out in the respective system where Luke is. Really clever actually!

+1 Point for JJ Abrams. Kudos! And it is a somewhat out of Universe Lucasfilm reference. Nice!

Because hyper space routes in Star wars have never been linear. So you can't take a straight line to the destination. You need the route.

If I want to go from Tatooine to Alderaan, I fly straight from Tatooine to Alderaan. The whole hyperspace route thing is just EU BS.

Because hyper space routes in Star wars have never been linear. So you can't take a straight line to the destination. You need the route.

If I want to go from Tatooine to Alderaan, I fly straight from Tatooine to Alderaan. The whole hyperspace route thing is just EU BS.

Nope. They are canon. Dexter talks about which route Obi-Wan should take in Ep II. Also this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Perlemian_Trade_Route

It is collected under the Canon rider.

Which still makes my statement valid!

It does indeed!

It's like in The Last Crusade, where Henry Jones Sr. had the map, but not the starting coordinates. Those were discovered by his son.

Crossing Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade with Star Wars gives me all sorts of odd mental images and lines...

Leia: "I put those plans on a droid and sent it far away from you. Do you honestly think they'd be stupid enough to bring those plans all the way back to you again?"

Han Solo: "Ah..."

Leia: "You didn't... Did you? You did... *face palm*"

Or for TFA:

Han Solo: "His name is Ben. Ben Solo. We called the dog Kylo Ren..."

Fin: "The Sith apprentice is named after a dog...?"

Kylo Ren: "I have a lot of fond memories of that dog..."

Heh.

Because hyper space routes in Star wars have never been linear. So you can't take a straight line to the destination. You need the route.

If I want to go from Tatooine to Alderaan, I fly straight from Tatooine to Alderaan. The whole hyperspace route thing is just EU BS.

Not so. TCW cartoon has examples of them almost colliding with things in hyperspace and also an instance where their ship is damaged and goes into hyperspace involuntarily leading them getting horribly lost. And one of the canon novels (that follows Luke after Episode I) talks about how you can't just fly somewhere if there aren't charts because you need to plot a route. I'd have to dig it out but I'm fairly sure it talks about needing a specific route. It may have started in EU, but it's snuck into canon.

If I want to go from Tatooine to Alderaan, I fly straight from Tatooine to Alderaan. The whole hyperspace route thing is just EU BS.

Nope. They are canon. Dexter talks about which route Obi-Wan should take in Ep II. Also this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Perlemian_Trade_Route

No they don't. Dexter says that Kamino is 12 parsecs south of the Rishi Maze. No mention of which "hyperspace route" to take. Dexter's description of it's location strongly implies that this is the only information you need to get there.

The Permian Trade Route is just that. A trade route. Where traders usually go. It's existence doesn't mean that if Han Solo needs to fly somewhere, he's got to take a "hyperspace route" to get there. He just calculates the path on his Navicomputer.

There's an episode of TCW where Annakin is tracking Cad Bane's ship to try and figure out where it's been. The map generated makes it pretty clear that he's flying straight from planet to planet.

Well of course most basic routes are straight lines, what did you think? There are far more planets on each route who merit a stop, that they become round when you look from that far a disctance.

So you admit the existance of Hyperspace routes! Also Han Solo's talking about the Kessel Run: if straight lines would be possible to calculate like you say, why hasn't anyone else made the Kessel Run in 12 parsec? Parsec is a distance, not a speed. The Kessel run is a smuggler route going through a dense field of black holes, avoiding any gravitational pull. Han Solo did it in less because he found a new, shorter route around those obstacles.

And sorry if you want to draw a map of where your adversay has been during the last days, do you draw his route exactly on the map? "Oh he must have taken that sideroad there, he simply must!" No you just put a pin on the map of all the locations and put some string around it, and whattayaknow... straight lines. I don't count that as a logical argument, but I haven't seen the specific episode. I will if someone directs me to it via giving me the name.

In episode IV Han says you can't just hyperspace. And explains why.

According to the Clone Wars movie, hyperspace routes are important, since the opening crawl stated that the Separatists had gained control of major hyperspace lanes, cutting the Republic off from most of its army. If hyperspace lanes were just common routes but all you actually needed were coordinates to plot a new one, this wouldn't have been an effective tactic.

Also, if all you need to quickly map a route was a set of coordinates, then there's no reason to have vast unexplored territory in a galaxy where interstellar travel is largely trivial.

All of this points to known routes being very important for travel. Obviously there has to be some way to scout and establish new routes but the EU material stated that this is a dangerous and time-consuming process. While not explicitly stated in any canon sources, it does seem to be heavily implied.

According to the Clone Wars movie, hyperspace routes are important, since the opening crawl stated that the Separatists had gained control of major hyperspace lanes, cutting the Republic off from most of its army. If hyperspace lanes were just common routes but all you actually needed were coordinates to plot a new one, this wouldn't have been an effective tactic.

Also, if all you need to quickly map a route was a set of coordinates, then there's no reason to have vast unexplored territory in a galaxy where interstellar travel is largely trivial.

All of this points to known routes being very important for travel. Obviously there has to be some way to scout and establish new routes but the EU material stated that this is a dangerous and time-consuming process. While not explicitly stated in any canon sources, it does seem to be heavily implied.

I don't think it's a matter of hyperspace routes being 'set in stone'. Just that routes which are both *safe* and *fast* are hard to come by. There's all sorts of EU/Legends mentions of 'smugglers' routes' which aren't well known, but are also either much slower, or riskier, or both. If the route is *enough* slower, it's almost effectively the same as not being there, since a spy could watch the fleet leave, and get word to the enemy in time for them to *still* be waiting at the destination in force.

Think of it as having the choice to take the Interstate somewhere, or having to pick your way through a vast, network of back roads that haven't been touched or even *labeled* in decades. You'll get there *eventually*, but the enemy may have had time to attack where you left and still get back to be there in time to block you when you arrive.

According to the Clone Wars movie, hyperspace routes are important, since the opening crawl stated that the Separatists had gained control of major hyperspace lanes, cutting the Republic off from most of its army. If hyperspace lanes were just common routes but all you actually needed were coordinates to plot a new one, this wouldn't have been an effective tactic.

Also, if all you need to quickly map a route was a set of coordinates, then there's no reason to have vast unexplored territory in a galaxy where interstellar travel is largely trivial.

All of this points to known routes being very important for travel. Obviously there has to be some way to scout and establish new routes but the EU material stated that this is a dangerous and time-consuming process. While not explicitly stated in any canon sources, it does seem to be heavily implied.

I don't think it's a matter of hyperspace routes being 'set in stone'. Just that routes which are both *safe* and *fast* are hard to come by. There's all sorts of EU/Legends mentions of 'smugglers' routes' which aren't well known, but are also either much slower, or riskier, or both. If the route is *enough* slower, it's almost effectively the same as not being there, since a spy could watch the fleet leave, and get word to the enemy in time for them to *still* be waiting at the destination in force.

Think of it as having the choice to take the Interstate somewhere, or having to pick your way through a vast, network of back roads that haven't been touched or even *labeled* in decades. You'll get there *eventually*, but the enemy may have had time to attack where you left and still get back to be there in time to block you when you arrive.

That explanation still relies on routes vs the argument that all you ever need is a set of coordinates. Smuggler routes are still routes just like side roads are still roads.

Plus given how fast hyperspace travel is, it seems hard to imagine that most routes would be so slow as to be completely impractical. Also, if coordinates were enough and routes weren't really important, you could blaze your own trail and your enemy wouldn't know where you were going, thus even if the main route was faster they couldn't beat you to the destination unless they had intel on exactly where you were headed.

I could have told you I live at 1138 Skywalker Drive in Lucasville, CA. Or, to be mysterious, I could draw a complicated path starting at Washington, DC across the US, using various side roads (as Voice mentioned above) to finally get to Lucasville, CA. Then, leave all of the highway and city names off the map and only mark "Start" and "Finish". With enough trial and error using various maps you could eventually lay it across a map of the US and figure out where I live as everything lines up. But, if I took the middle section out, before giving it to you, it would be vastly more difficult to line it up and thus figure out the destination. Thus, the need to find the entire route.

Yes it's a tiresome explanation that could have been solved with a little more thought by the writers. But, I suppose it wouldn't be Star Warzy without some oddities like this that fans must bend their minds explaining away.