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Now if you are playing a large game and are running out of cards you can always shuffle the discarded cards (from destroyed ships or abilities such as determination) and make a new deck. However the rule goes if the card deck is completely exhausted then every critical hit is treated as a direct hit.

The situations where one would deplete the damage deck and not have a discard pile to create a new one should be extremely rare. Now maybe I missed it but my impression was that if there are no cards to draw then a crit result is just treated as a NORMAL hit which is represented by some token; to put it another way if there are no cards to draw then there is nothing special to worry about from critical hits anymore.

The only time I'd really advocate for using counters/tokens to represent unknown damage cards is when there is a real danger of actually running out of damage cards. How does that happen? Maybe some epic games and having both sides share a single deck could also cause it but if it happens in a normal game I'd say someone isn't playing too well if they are allowing that many ships to run around with that much damage on them. Six TIE Bombers could carry 31 damage cards on them (a hull upgrade in there somewhere) with each of them one hit away from death but even this leaves you with enough cards to finish them off and rebuild the deck.

Casual play, sure. What ever floats your boat.

The simple fact is if you don't use the damage deck as outlined in the rules, you are cheating. Two decks merged together? Cheating. One deck from the base set and one set from the new one? Cheating.

The game is designed around using the deck to track damage, and deal random critical effects. Not drawing out of the deck means you are artificially changing what critical will be dealt next. Malicious or not, it's not OK for play in a tournament or with a stranger at your local game store.

Man. This sounds a bit rough when I proof-read it.

Cheating.

Man, I have to agree. Even though there's no way to actively cheat it, since you don't know what card you may draw either way, it still just feels like altering fate. And you just shouldn't do that. Not drawing cards down feels wrong somehow.

Also, it affects a few key cards like Rexler. If you're dealt a card that is turned facedown after resolving, part of the attacking player's strategy is deciding whether or not to turn that specific one face up again. Thrust Control Fire and Munitions Failure are good examples. Case in point, I once fired on a Y-Wing that carried both a torpedo and a turret. Munitions Failure came up, and i got to choose to flip it after it resolved, thus ridding that Y-Wing of both secondaries. That was a tactical choice for me, and your variant rule alters strategies like that in what might be considered an unfair way.

So yeah OP, it just doesn't feel legit to me. Sorry.

we leave the damage deck out, and just use shield tokens for the full health of each ship (eg a z-95 gets 4 shields). When they are gone, it is dead. We simply count all critical hits as double damage. Simpler, although it fields weird at tournements with only a few shield cards on each ship.

this post touches me in inappropriate places.

Since both damage decks are legal, I've combined both orig & new decks together so there are now plenty of damage cards. The markers are use to indicate ships (in the play area) with on-going critical effects on it. I've notice frequently people forget critical effects on their ship, so marking ship is a good reminder tool.

NO!!!!! Do NOT mix two damage decks! If the same deck type is used it may not mess up the expected outcome of the first card drawn/revealed but it messes up the chances of every card after that. If you see a two-of when using 33 cards you know you've only got a 1/how ever many cards are unrevealed of seeing its mate but if you mix two decks you've now got a 3/whatever chance of seeing another copy. Never mix damage decks.

I agree that we shouldn't combining the two (old & new) damage decks for any official competitive play. My friends and I play for fun. So having a combine (the old & the new) decks for us works just fine. We paid for both decks, so might as will use them. It is all random draw anyway. We kind of enjoy have more chances of getting double damage. We fly casual. We can have minor & major explosions, different blind pilot effects, the munition failure, and the awful injure pilot crit. We love it.

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The simple fact is if you don't use the damage deck as outlined in the rules, you are cheating. Two decks merged together? Cheating. One deck from the base set and one set from the new one? Cheating.

The game is designed around using the deck to track damage, and deal random critical effects. Not drawing out of the deck means you are artificially changing what critical will be dealt next. Malicious or not, it's not OK for play in a tournament or with a stranger at your local game store.

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Man, I have to agree. Even though there's no way to actively cheat it, since you don't know what card you may draw either way, it still just feels like altering fate. And you just shouldn't do that. Not drawing cards down feels wrong somehow.

Also, it affects a few key cards like Rexler. If you're dealt a card that is turned facedown after resolving, part of the attacking player's strategy is deciding whether or not to turn that specific one face up again. Thrust Control Fire and Munitions Failure are good examples. Case in point, I once fired on a Y-Wing that carried both a torpedo and a turret. Munitions Failure came up, and i got to choose to flip it after it resolved, thus ridding that Y-Wing of both secondaries. That was a tactical choice for me, and your variant rule alters strategies like that in what might be considered an unfair way.

So yeah OP, it just doesn't feel legit to me. Sorry.

As long as you are using ONE damage deck just drawing the face up card from it will not alter how the face up cards come out. Not getting all of the cards thrown in the discard pile when a ship gets destroyed may alter the information you have about what cards are still in the DD but not in a way that you are likely to be able to take advantage of it.

With a card like Rexler you have NO IDEA what damage cards are dealt so treating them as tokens works. It is only if you spend that Focus token that you would get to flip them over and in this can that would mean replacing the tokens with the now face-up damage cards. If any of those will flip back down then they should remain on the target as a face down card. As long as cards STAY PUT once they get revealed you can do just fine with all unknown cards being represented by something else.

Note: I see "Rexler" and I'm also thinking HLC although I guess if you were using primaries you could land a [kaboom] to give the ship a face-up card although I question the timing involved if you think you can deal a face-up card, have it resolve and flip back down, and THEN use Rexler's ability to turn everything face up again. While it may be possible to turn that card back over later you should not be suffering a card's effect twice during a single attack.

I strongly believe it would improve X Wing as a game if it used a list, like most other games, instead of a small deck of cards. Not only would set-up and pack-up times be reduced, but it would keep the table clear and make it easier to apply upgrades to your ships. As it is, you can have something like ten cards and tokens on the board, all representing a single ship. Frankly, it's ridiculous. With shield tokens, damage cards, titles, modifications, EPTs, droids, ordnance, crew, etc it can get out of hand pretty quickly.

Using a roster/list would let people simply check off damage as their ships are hurt. Criticals could easily be resolved with a D6/2D6 random chart.

I'm really hoping that either FFG does an X Wing 2.0 with no damage deck at all (and that uses lists instead of cards) or that they don't renew their contract when it expires and we can all just do whatever we want with these rules and models.

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The simple fact is if you don't use the damage deck as outlined in the rules, you are cheating. Two decks merged together? Cheating. One deck from the base set and one set from the new one? Cheating.

The game is designed around using the deck to track damage, and deal random critical effects. Not drawing out of the deck means you are artificially changing what critical will be dealt next. Malicious or not, it's not OK for play in a tournament or with a stranger at your local game store.

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Man, I have to agree. Even though there's no way to actively cheat it, since you don't know what card you may draw either way, it still just feels like altering fate. And you just shouldn't do that. Not drawing cards down feels wrong somehow.

Also, it affects a few key cards like Rexler. If you're dealt a card that is turned facedown after resolving, part of the attacking player's strategy is deciding whether or not to turn that specific one face up again. Thrust Control Fire and Munitions Failure are good examples. Case in point, I once fired on a Y-Wing that carried both a torpedo and a turret. Munitions Failure came up, and i got to choose to flip it after it resolved, thus ridding that Y-Wing of both secondaries. That was a tactical choice for me, and your variant rule alters strategies like that in what might be considered an unfair way.

So yeah OP, it just doesn't feel legit to me. Sorry.

As long as you are using ONE damage deck just drawing the face up card from it will not alter how the face up cards come out. Not getting all of the cards thrown in the discard pile when a ship gets destroyed may alter the information you have about what cards are still in the DD but not in a way that you are likely to be able to take advantage of it.

With a card like Rexler you have NO IDEA what damage cards are dealt so treating them as tokens works. It is only if you spend that Focus token that you would get to flip them over and in this can that would mean replacing the tokens with the now face-up damage cards. If any of those will flip back down then they should remain on the target as a face down card. As long as cards STAY PUT once they get revealed you can do just fine with all unknown cards being represented by something else.

Note: I see "Rexler" and I'm also thinking HLC although I guess if you were using primaries you could land a [kaboom] to give the ship a face-up card although I question the timing involved if you think you can deal a face-up card, have it resolve and flip back down, and THEN use Rexler's ability to turn everything face up again. While it may be possible to turn that card back over later you should not be suffering a card's effect twice during a single attack.

on the contrary, they specifically state that is exactly how he works with damage cards that resolve and then flip facedown. Damage is dealt immediately, and face up damage resolves immediately. Since the facedown card is included in the statement "damage cards you have dealt this turn", they are included in Rexler's ability. And yes, I have been known to make range 1-2 attack on the hope of landing a crit. In this case, it was range 1.

I strongly believe it would improve X Wing as a game if it used a list, like most other games, instead of a small deck of cards. Not only would set-up and pack-up times be reduced, but it would keep the table clear and make it easier to apply upgrades to your ships. As it is, you can have something like ten cards and tokens on the board, all representing a single ship. Frankly, it's ridiculous. With shield tokens, damage cards, titles, modifications, EPTs, droids, ordnance, crew, etc it can get out of hand pretty quickly.

Using a roster/list would let people simply check off damage as their ships are hurt. Criticals could easily be resolved with a D6/2D6 random chart.

I'm really hoping that either FFG does an X Wing 2.0 with no damage deck at all (and that uses lists instead of cards) or that they don't renew their contract when it expires and we can all just do whatever we want with these rules and models.

Not to rain on your hopes, but they made Armada the same way with respect to tokens/cards. They even use these items for roleplaying. It's FFGs style. They aren't simply a pen and paper company and they also don't use traditional dice.

I for one, think they've made some great SW games and hope they hold onto the license for some time.

I strongly believe it would improve X Wing as a game if it used a list, like most other games, instead of a small deck of cards. Not only would set-up and pack-up times be reduced, but it would keep the table clear and make it easier to apply upgrades to your ships. As it is, you can have something like ten cards and tokens on the board, all representing a single ship. Frankly, it's ridiculous. With shield tokens, damage cards, titles, modifications, EPTs, droids, ordnance, crew, etc it can get out of hand pretty quickly.

Using a roster/list would let people simply check off damage as their ships are hurt. Criticals could easily be resolved with a D6/2D6 random chart.

I'm really hoping that either FFG does an X Wing 2.0 with no damage deck at all (and that uses lists instead of cards) or that they don't renew their contract when it expires and we can all just do whatever we want with these rules and models.

The cards are helpful for reducing overhead

Making people consult charts will cause more problems than it solves.

Same reason why the games use dice with symbols and not with a chart.

Romanticizing critical hit charts doesn't stop making them suck. Of all the games I've played over the decades, this concept of tracking damage with face down cards with nasty effects on the other side is as refreshing as it is exciting.

All the direct hits have been used up on the flaming wreck of your opponent's squad? Who knows? Oh snap! Damaged sensor array took care of that pesky action that's stopping all my hits/that's killing all my ships.

Really this is a pointless argument about some person's house rules. If you don't track damage with the cards you are altering what critical will come into play. If you don't track damage with the cards some abilities are rendered useless. It may seem that a given face down card is not important, right up until the part where it is.

Here's a good example: I score a critical hit on you. It's Minor explosion, and you do not take an additional damage. I know that card is in play, and on the next turn I use Saboteur to flip it face up again, and cause you to have to roll again to see if you take an additional damage.

It's pretty clear that simply drawing for crits is not good enough. Those on the other side of this argument come off sounding like they want to avoid a part of the game rather than it being a matter of convienience.

Your house? Whateves. Keep doing what you like. But here we are playing the game by its rules. That's what makes it a game and not some arbitrary playtime.

It's what makes it possible to share the game with strangers and friends alike.

I strongly believe it would improve X Wing as a game if it used a list, like most other games, instead of a small deck of cards. Not only would set-up and pack-up times be reduced, but it would keep the table clear and make it easier to apply upgrades to your ships. As it is, you can have something like ten cards and tokens on the board, all representing a single ship. Frankly, it's ridiculous. With shield tokens, damage cards, titles, modifications, EPTs, droids, ordnance, crew, etc it can get out of hand pretty quickly.

Using a roster/list would let people simply check off damage as their ships are hurt. Criticals could easily be resolved with a D6/2D6 random chart.

I'm really hoping that either FFG does an X Wing 2.0 with no damage deck at all (and that uses lists instead of cards) or that they don't renew their contract when it expires and we can all just do whatever we want with these rules and models.

First, of all, I disagree with just about everything you say and think the game is much better as it is now compared to how you want it to be. Second, you CAN do whatever you want with all these rules and models. What's stopping you from playing the game how you want?

Someone might have said this, since I don't want to read it all.

But I see no reason either way, UNLESS you are playing against Colzet, Saboteur, using R2D2 crew, or anything that flips hits to crits. At that point I would ALWAYS place the damage cards.

It's just, if you place the cards or not, the level of randomness for Face-up damage cards received probably stays the same. The cards really only become LESS random when you actually see the Face-up cards. Only then do you KNOW that a critical card has been used. The remaining cards are still unknowns.

Now, you can argue that the original shuffling of the damage deck should not be messed with, that the order of its cards after that first shuffle, and possible cut/shuffle by the opponent, is sacred, and its current layout is the "current match". But, that really has nothing to do with Randomness. Your cards are still placed in a random order no matter what.

Also, strangely enough, I think the Vassal damage deck does NOT do it this way, putting the cards in one particular order. If you draw a damage card, flip it over, hit undo until the damage card is returned to the deck, then re-draw the card, it is NOT the same card, haha. It must draw a random card from the remaining cards.

First, of all, I disagree with just about everything you say and think the game is much better as it is now compared to how you want it to be. Second, you CAN do whatever you want with all these rules and models. What's stopping you from playing the game how you want?

First of all, you are of course entitled to your wrong opinion

Secondly, other people prevent me from playing the game the way I'd like. This game could use some serious improvement, but so long as FFG is running the show then the community will continue to play 100/6 tournament style games to the exclusion of all else.

I should note that my local group is very relaxed about things like proxying cards, using rosters instead of decks, etc. But there's still room for improvement in terms of the game at large and when threads like these come up I like to discuss where I think the game could improve

One final thought:

Not drawing the damage cards makes it look more like you've stacked the deck, or leaves the deck easier to stack. It is much easier to "fake a shuffle" or something like that if you KNOW that you won't be drawing any damage cards until the are Face-up. It's not even that NOT drawing the cards looks shady or anything, it just opens up the door for possible cheating, which I think should be avoided if possible.

(You'd also have to avoid having your deck cut by the opponent, which probably isn't that hard since it ISN'T required in the rules, or even in normal etiquette many times. It probably only comes up in half the games I play, even at premiere events. I think we X-Wingers just trust each other, which is good! Cheating the damage deck is such a weird thing, and only provides a minor advantage that depends so much on RNG that the guilt of doing it and the potential of getting caught is definitely not worth it. Not to mention, of course, that cheating is bad! *Gives best impression of a Nun glaring at you*.)

For THIS reason, and this reason only, (not some other reason about it affecting randomness or something, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't), I would enforce the drawing of the damage cards for all damage. It is much harder to cheat if you don't know how many damage cards into the deck you'll be receiving a Face-up card.

Now, if you're really into counting damage with dice to make it easier to track, go for it, but you probably should at least stack those damage cards in a nice and neat pile next to the ship cards or something, and just use the dice as an additional tracking measure.

Please keep dice of the table for shields/damage. We have tokens for a reason.

One thing I'd love in this game is if there was a way to track shields and damage right there on the ship base, like the clix bases or the shield counters in Armada.

One final thought:

Not drawing the damage cards makes it look more like you've stacked the deck, or leaves the deck easier to stack. It is much easier to "fake a shuffle" or something like that if you KNOW that you won't be drawing any damage cards until the are Face-up. It's not even that NOT drawing the cards looks shady or anything, it just opens up the door for possible cheating, which I think should be avoided if possible.

(You'd also have to avoid having your deck cut by the opponent, which probably isn't that hard since it ISN'T required in the rules, or even in normal etiquette many times. It probably only comes up in half the games I play, even at premiere events. I think we X-Wingers just trust each other, which is good! Cheating the damage deck is such a weird thing, and only provides a minor advantage that depends so much on RNG that the guilt of doing it and the potential of getting caught is definitely not worth it. Not to mention, of course, that cheating is bad! *Gives best impression of a Nun glaring at you*.)

For THIS reason, and this reason only, (not some other reason about it affecting randomness or something, which I'm pretty sure it doesn't), I would enforce the drawing of the damage cards for all damage. It is much harder to cheat if you don't know how many damage cards into the deck you'll be receiving a Face-up card.

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I would even give you part of this. If fewer cards are drawn from the DD and they are only drawn when a face-up card is required it can make stacking the deck more appealing to the cheaters. The effect is probably less dramatic than people who alter the content of their DD hoping to gain an advantage that way.

While it may not be REQUIRED that you do anything to your opponent's damage deck unless I've missed a major rule change somewhere you are allowed to inspect (ie. make sure the right cards are all there!), shuffle and/or cut your opponent's deck. If your opponent's deck is not sufficiently randomized it is really your own fault. I strongly recommend a quick glance at your competitor's deck contents and perhaps a count and then shuffling it or at the very least cutting it after they have shuffled it; a count can also help catch legitimate accidents where are card accidently passes from one player to another before they move on to other battles.

One thing I'd love in this game is if there was a way to track shields and damage right there on the ship base, like the clix bases or the shield counters in Armada.

Oh good grief no! I hate trying to change the shield numbers without moving the base! That's one of the many things that stopped me playing Armada.

I love X-Wing as it is. I don't think I'd change the rules at all. They work pretty darn well. Cards for damage is great, I don't see the problem.

Just my opinion, everyone should play how they want. Unless you're in a tournament...

yeah I could see this particularly when flying a deci or falcon and you have a mess of cards clogging up the area!! some kind of counter for the damage would be neat something thats easy to see for everyone.The dice idea seems pretty simple and effective.was playing "Shut the box" the other night and was thinking it would be cool if they had a smaller version that you could use to track shield loss. just flip the blue shield token over. you would have to see the game i am talking about ti get the visual i am thinking of..lol

One thing I'd love in this game is if there was a way to track shields and damage right there on the ship base, like the clix bases or the shield counters in Armada.

Actually I'm quite fond of Voidstates Squad builder. There is a setting that prints out an image for each hull and/or shield that each ship has. Then you can just mark them off as you loose them. Getting back is a bit of a bother.