ColGeneralVatutin,

I am sorry you feel like ffg is being greedy with xwing.... I think it comes down to a matter of perspective

In my time with xwing and its evolution, I think they have done a great job of trying to keep the game balanced. something a true gamer wants in a game.

It wasn't that long ago that the meta contained only a few combinations. The Meta now is wide open.

As posted before, there are many starting lists to be had that are under 200 dollars that can compete at any level. For the new players this is great by the standards of any miniature game.

I have a couple friends that are younger in college that I introduced the game to. They start buying one faction and they borrow my stuff first to see if they want to buy more. I find the community as a whole very generous this way. Granted for me it is quite expensive buying everything but I have more than got my moneys worth.

I have had very few issues with quality... maybe Im lucky but every complaint ive seen or have had myself has been rectified amazingly fast to satisfaction. I am amazed considering the 10-15 dollar price point how few if any complaints there are

all in all if your opinion is they are ripping you off I would hardily disagree, .... I hope you find a company/game that fulfills your needs.

Manaworm....I stand corrected

Zerotoc also persuaded me the error ps of my ways along with others.

He writes to my reply:

*******************

zerotc, on 18 Dec 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

ColGeneralVatutin, on 18 Dec 2015 - 01:49 AM, said:

@Zerotc: Now the rest of your aurgument is a real aurgument with real points.

My point is the unbridled part. I want them to make lots of money because I want there to be an incentive. Don't let my username, which I realize now is a problem making these arguments, fool you. I am a ww2 buff and since the soviets won the war I took who was possibly their best commanders name as a username. Brilliant combined arms tactician. Studied him in the War College. He died before the end of the war so h didn't get the fanfare of others and is largely forgotten.

Their is a point were the corporation justs starts unfair practices. Yea only people playing epic should buy the raider. Their should be no unfair incentive granted to epic players than us other players. If epic can stand on its own two feet it doesn't deserve a bailout from us the regular X-wing players. Thank you for the second part of your post.

Right, but the Tantive's C3PO is being given away in a few months at Store Championships. The Gozanti's upgrades are hardly necessary for competitive lists. That leaves the Rebel Transport and the Raider. And those are only necessary if you choose to run lists that are reliant on those upgrades. You have thousands upon thousands of combinations that are competitive.

That's also two ships out of what feels like 50+. Does FFG really deserve all this vitriol? I come from a Warhammer 40K background. Games Workshop deserves that vitriol. FFG certainly does not when you look at the whole picture if you ask me.

It should also be noted that a Raider gives 4 copies of the TIE Advanced title and comes with a TIE Advanced ship itself. Even if you're not selling some of those upgrades (which I probably will end up doing myself) or splitting the Raider with a friend, I view the breakdown as $15 for the included TIE Adv, $15 for upgrade cards ($5 to upgrade 3 additional TIE Advanced). That leaves $70 for a beautiful ship. Still expensive, yes. But relative to a Decimator in terms of material, it seems fair.

*********************************

Zerotc el al are right. I stand corrected. I will trouble you no more with this line of questioning.

Cheers

You do realize that it is possible to be an informed consumer, right? I never got a TIE Advanced, because I heard that it was close to being unplayable (that was in wave 3 by the way, I bought in when wave 4 was just released). So I really don't feel like FFG is holding a gun to my face and screaming "BUY YOUR RAIDER!!!" So many rescources exist where new players can inform themselves as to what is worth buying and what isn't, telling them which ships need additional purchases to be viable in a competetive enviroment.

The notion that FFG releases broken ships so they may later on sell fixes is unreasonable. It is obvious that they, especially in the earlier stages of the game, which, to be frank, we haven't quite left, yet, didn't quite understand the game. It is a lot worse to create an expansion that is gamebreakingly strong than it is to release one that doesn't quite make it. The game is balanced enough that all ships work in casual play.

We all realize that the buisness model is far from perfect with models being tied to rules and therefor more expensive than the actual material would be, but the system also has advantages, as it is very easy to get into. Being competetive also does not require huge investments. About 150€ gets you a lot of options that will be strong and capable of winning any tournament. If you can't place well outside of your local stores tournaments that is not the games but your own fault. 150 is a lot, but in the context of tabletop gaming it is on the lower end of the spectrum. It is amazing that this game can be played in an affordable fashion, but FFG is no charity and there is no right for people to play it.

I hate buying ships I don't want to get upgrades I want too.

At least...I hope that's what you said. I didn't read all that.

I could really do with a bacon sandwich right now.

Maybe topped with a fried egg.

Do you think this guy has ever heard of Games Workshop?

But that would belong in the off topic forum.

Now is this the right place for the OP to post this thread? Absolutely even though I disagree with 90% of it and think it is a bit too long of a read and not long because of some insight but mostly long because of repeating rhetoric, mainly with prices. I have been known to make some long posts too but I like to fill it with context and keep my arguments to the point backed with valid statements.

Now too address some concerns that the op has in much much fewer words. The new player problem is one that becomes more of an issue especially as the miniature range grows. New players can just get overwhelmed but the huge selection of ships and not knowing which pilots or upgrades is in what pack could lead to a few disappointing purchases. The new core set although I am completely against the fashion in which it was released does help new players a lot and even gives them a top meta pilot Poe Dameron in the T=70 X-wing. Sure to build poe just like Paul Heaver's list you are going to need some expansions and some of them might be expensive but that is where as a consumer you have to come in and decide a few things first such as what style do you want to play X-wing. Do you want to focus on a specific faction, or have two or three equally balanced factions? What format of X-wing do you want to play, are you playing competitive or just casual, what is your budget for this hobby. All these have to come into consideration before you start collecting X-wing miniatures if you want to have an enjoyable experience.

If you do end up with the collectors plan and plan to well collect everything then you have to come up with a purchasing plan and keep it in you budget. Sure you will spend a bit of money but stick to that budget and you will eventually have the entire range. X-wing being a newer table top miniatures have a much smaller miniature range making it easier to collect every model than most miniatures game such as games like Warhammer, but in Warhammer the business model is to have collectors focus on one or two factions. Since X-wing only has 3 factions the way the products are set up is for players to collect at least two factions and while some players would prefer to focus on one have an additional faction I think helps diversify the experience. I believe players will enjoy tabletop miniatures better when they have choices to explore and don't feel like they are locked into a single list or faction.

The Epic issue, well as someone that has Epic ships I can tell you that I did not buy the Tantive-IV for C-3PO or the Raider for TIE/x1 titles. I bought it for the big ships to play epic. Now Epic is not for every X-wing player and I am sure that many X-wing players find ways to get these so called top meta upgrade cards without dropping $100 on a ship that they have no intention to use. Now sure FFG could find better ways of distributing these upgrade cards with prize support. The prize support doesn't help a collector that much with an alternate art pilot card that already comes in the only expansion pack that contains that ship. But it is a good start with recon specialist and push the limits prize cards. Back on the argument against epic, if you are only int o casual play then you should not be playing epic as there is no casual epic format. Epic is not for just plain casual players it is for invested X-wing players. You don't even need a huge ship to play epic but you do need a substantial collection of ships which will run you the cost of an epic expansion pack on its own.

As for Armada well we didn't have Armada when Epic first came out and some people would want to play Epic instead of Armada. I know it sounds strange but you get a different feel with X-wing scale ships than from Armada scale ships. Many of us X-wing players. These are two different games and although they cover the same franchise and have a bit of an overlap such as Imperial Raiders and Corerlian Corvettes they play completely differently and have different strategies. A good armada player would not necessarily make a good Epic player anymore than a good X-wing player would make a good Armada player.

Agreed that the peg issue is somewhat frustrating. That can be traced to different manufacturing facilities that FFG had to change in between releases of waves mainly 3 and 4. The same change that caused many delays and past projected date launches. Now while the OP might take a look at the colored bases as a cheap cash grab keep in mind they would not make them if there wasn't a demand. And there is a demand for colored bases as some players go as far as dye or paint their own bases and even some third party bases have been manufactured. So in a way this is FFG taking care of a base & peg issue and listening to customers demands.

As for the Aces/Veterans expansion pack fixes to existing models. This is how FFG bring old models back into the competitive fold. Now FFG's business model is not to just release a new pilot or upgrade card but all pilot and upgrade cards are packaged with a model. For collectors such as myself another model is exactly what we want. I have been debating on buying a second defender but now it is not necessary as a new one is coming in the pack. I still might buy a second Defender and B-wing expansion but that is for a later time when my budget can fit it. Also you have to have these aces or veterans packs for updating older models because if you look at waves they only introduce new ships, (excluding core set of course). You will not see the TIE defender in Wave 9 or an A-wing in wave 10 unless it was a new ship in the new movies and in that case it would be a new model with new stats and maneuvers just like the T-70 and TIE/FO.

Well there is my TL:DR take it as you will.

TLDR

I hate buying ships I don't want to get upgrades I want too.

At least...I hope that's what you said. I didn't read all that.

Then you made a good life choice, have a cookie

This whole gripe is silly, but the idea about putting defender cards in the inquisitor pack is beyond ridiculous. FFG isn't forcing you to spend a fraction of what other, similar game companies do. And their model isn't going to change.

so what do you propose one wastes one money on? women??? far more expensive than X-wing.. Cars more expensive? Booze? far more expensive?? how about that 120 dollar a month cell phone bill for that 600 dollar phone?? seriously a couple of chunks of plastic crack for 15 bucks a pop (MSRP) is NOT that expensive. and if you think it is you got bigger problems just head outside and pick of some returnables around the local construction sites or highways.. lol for a few hours work you could have enough money for some plastic crack!!

Yes, you are correct. they are trying to get the most money out of individuals that want to stay at the top of the leader boards. If you can't be happy without winning, then don't play or just play with friends with what you have. Still, look at the total cost of the top squads. CAN SOMEONE QUOTE THE THREAD? Most are below $200 for winning lists. a GW list will cost you close to that just to get the rule books and templates and you haven't got a figure to use yet. Plus paint and tools. Compared to other games this is a bargen.

The only thing that anoys me is when people expect that you have the expansions and ask why you are not using the optimal build. Because I'm not buying what I feel is an ugly ship I will never use. Do I win often. No. Do I play often? no. if I'd play more i'd get better and win more even without every upgrade card. Even fat han and tlt lists can get wiped off the table with average lists if you play better.

-- SNIP --

Write this about Games Workshop and you might be in the right ball park. I have yet to see anyone being forced into buying.

I could really do with a bacon sandwich right now.

Maybe topped with a fried egg.

It's been a while since we had a good breakfast thread. I'm going to see TFA this morning at 9:30 at the Alamo drafthouse, so I think a shandy will be part of mine this morning.

I could really do with a bacon sandwich right now.

Maybe topped with a fried egg.

It's been a while since we had a good breakfast thread. I'm going to see TFA this morning at 9:30 at the Alamo drafthouse, so I think a shandy will be part of mine this morning.

Have fun! There's always room for a hearty breakfast, but watch that liquid intake - the last thing you want is a rest break mid film!

Okay, I'm going to break my rule of don't respond to trolls, because I feel this is a troll post (most of your ships don't fit on pegs right or have faults...yeah right you are either just very unlucky, or making bull- up to suit your agenda for making FFG look bad.

You've been a member since...October 2015, if that is anything to go by, you've been around here for two months and suddenly your an expert at X-Wing and FFG's practices.

Guess what? There was a time when the X-Wing was viable, when the TIE Advanced was viable, when the A-Wing was the go to missle carrier. You know what happened? The B-Wing happened, the TIE Intercetpor happened, and the Z-95 happened. A game evolves with every release and its meta shifts. There's only so many different variations of the same you can do and with every wave, values change. I would rarely consider running an A-Wing with missiles now, because the Z-95 is cheaper and so I can get two Z's with missles for just a bit more than it would cost to have one A-Wing with missiles

Your main distate seems to be aimed at the cards that they could sell seperately but don't. FFG are a business and they need to encourage (not con) people to buy products. C3-PO is a very odd circumstance that FFG may not have predicted would work with the Falcon so well. There is only so much testing one can do when you have a small pool of 20 testers as opposed to the thousands of testers you'll get when a ship is released, that's why erratas occur.

As for the TIE Advanced, yes that was part of the Raider, but there are many ways around the cituation, the first is to give epic a chance and actually see if you enjoy it, you may, you may not. If that doesn't work gee he's a bright idea, sell it on Ebay without the advanced stuff? Or even better go to a third party who sells the cards and buy it from them. The Advanced is in there to encourage people to buy the raider yes, because that is business. What is terrible business is putting fixes for one ship in the pack for another. The Inquisitors TIE Advanced having fixes for the Defender makes no sense. I buy the Prototype advance and then go "well that's stupid now I have upgrades for a ship I don't even own!" you argue that the StarViper had autothrusters that 'fixed' the TIE Interceptor, and A-Wing. I conceed they did fix those ships or at least make them more viable, however it was also an upgrade that could be used on the StarViper.

Now the StarViper went through the same testing that all ships go through, and those testers are not FFG yes men, they are players, I know because I know someone who is a game tester for FFG and have found his name in the credits of a few ships. As i have stated before, having 20 people test something is very different from having thousands play around with it.

Now I need to go to my minimum paying job right now to earn money. Some of which goes to X-Wing because I do a thing called budget, and thanks to budgeting I can pick up a T-70, and a TIE FO along with an assault carrier in the new year. I can do that on a £600 a month job, that's not a lot of money.

As for your claims of ships being faulty, there are instances where a ship is faulty, however in my two years of playing X-Wing I've recieved 1 faulty ship model, and 1 misaligned peg. If you want tragedy, go play the game Star Trek Attack Wing from Wizkids and find out that every expansion has unique upgrades, one copy in each, the models look terrible, and most of the time the pegs are wonky, even on ships you win as prizes at tournaments.

Or better yet, go buy a £29.99 warhammer squad...get them out, paint them, glue them yourself whatever you want to do...as someone who can't do that, I am more than happy to recieve painted well designed ships that may very occasionally have a fault. oh yeah, and you'll need to buy at least 5 of those to actually have a large enough army to play.

So get off your high horse because your big head is currently causing you to suffer oxygen deprivation from being as high as a kite if you think FFG's business practices are wrong. Are they perfect? Hardly, but they are reasonable and the instances where you can think "that is a bit too ritch for me" maybe you need to seek a different source of that upgrade.

Because of the OP's lengthly post and repetition it does come across more of a rant than thoughtful comments.

Nevertheless to be fair much of what the OP has said many have been complaining about for a while.

Depth: Depth or overwhelming really depends on how often you play and keep up to date. New players don't really stand a chance against someone familiar with the game and I'm not referring to game strategy but card collecting. Okay I know that builds are part of game strategy but deck building it is so deep/complicated it can take all day and the game is only an hour. For new players that is impossible to even know the synergies.

Buy to play fixes: Many have asked why do I need to buy a StarViper to fix the Interceptor. Then people say Autothrusters isn't an auto-included yet at the same time 99% would never take the Interceptor without Autothrusters. This is just one example of several. Here you're even buying an S&V faction ship to fix an Imperial Ship. Really? That doesn't hurt just a little?

Epic: Me I LOVE EPIC but others do not. The Raider to fix the TIE Adv. the Tantive IV to boost the Rebel fat ships. Some are saying the proposed solution is to give away cards at tournaments but you're not allowed to play with proxies. So what you are saying is you need to buy the expansion to play the tournament to get the card for free. Somehow this doesn't make a lot of sense.

Aces and Veterans: Me I'm at least as much a collector as a player and I don't paint. So I don't mind the different paint jobs in new expansions. But at the same time I owned 4 x A-Wings and 4 x B-Wings and 4 x TIE Interceptors when the Aces came out. Guess what? Currently I own 4 bombers now I'll have 6. Why? It isn't because I want to throw my money away. It is because I wanted 4 to play in an Epic squad and because I want them to continue to be playable I need 2 more. That's 8 plus extra ships that even at a discount is over $80 that I don't need or want. What do I need with these extra purchases or original models? Throw them away? If I don't carry them and I don't use them then what are they for). That same monies could have bought a lot of upgrades cards if Fantasy Flight had come out with a card only Upgrade Pack.

Proxies: I hated proxies; still do even though I use them now. Why can't I have the game components to play the game. Well I can if I can afford it. Well I can afford it but why do I need to by S&V faction to play the Imperial faction at a Game Store without loosing 95% of the time. Sure I don't have to go to game stores, or play with good players, or play with competitive people but those suggestions at best don't understand the actual problem and at worst, well I won't say. It is rude play with someone who has everything and ask them to not use certain cards; you could not play with people that have X-Wing and you could say we will use my limited collection. You could say I'm not allowed to play in competitions or some game stores because I proxy. P.S. there are people that don't even like casual play with proxies so that is limiting too.

Finally it is Fantasy Flights business model to come out with incomplete products and offer expansions to fix it. I don't know if this is the case for X-Wing but it is clear. Take Cosmic Encounter as an example. That game has been out since the 80s with only one expansion. Fantasy Fight bought it and released it, however it immediately needed two expansions to get it to where is was 30 years ago. Please don't hide behind excuses like the core would be too expensive, the box too big or other non-sense. The game has been a good game 3 decades before and upon FFG's release it was purposefully incomplete. Look at Eldritch Horror that screamed for extra cards upon release. Of course they came out with an expansion almost immediately.

Is anyone forced to play? Of course not. Should you steal to play the game, no and if you do you should go to jail and get therapy. But none of this changes or denies a particular Business Model. It is immoral? Well that is a strong word. Is it consumer friendly? Well other manufactures are worse. Does someone worse than you make you a better person. Not really, it just means you could sink to lower depths; but it also means you're that much closer to being able to excel.

Fantasy Flight makes a good product and a really fun game in the very popular Star Wars Universe. Do I like the fact they don't have card only Upgrade expansions. No I think it stinks. Will I stop buying? Yes some day (see note below). But one thing is certain I've cut back on my purchases and an trying to resell extras and S&V stuff. I doubt this little eBay effort and my cutting back has any dollar impact on Fantasy Flight. But oddly enough I'd actually buy alot more if they included a few penny cards in a new deck. Step over a dollar to pickup a penny.

Note: I own Imperial Assault (IA) and Star Wars Armada (SWA). However both of my purchases of those game are highly impacted by my Star Wars: X-Wing experience. I purchased IA core and Wave 1 only then stopped. I am currently buying SWA Core and Waves 1 & 2 and stopping. Already I don't play IA at game stores and here again is less visibility for FFG and as soon as the next wave for SWA comes out I doubt I'll be competitive with that either so that too will be limited to playing at home.

P.S. Oops this is a long post too.

I could really do with a bacon sandwich right now.

Maybe topped with a fried egg.

It's been a while since we had a good breakfast thread. I'm going to see TFA this morning at 9:30 at the Alamo drafthouse, so I think a shandy will be part of mine this morning.

Have fun! There's always room for a hearty breakfast, but watch that liquid intake - the last thing you want is a rest break mid film!

I've got an AM showing so my fiance and I are thinking fancy breakfast out before the movie. I'm thinking biscuits and gravy with a good bloody mary.

I could really do with a bacon sandwich right now.

Maybe topped with a fried egg.

It's been a while since we had a good breakfast thread. I'm going to see TFA this morning at 9:30 at the Alamo drafthouse, so I think a shandy will be part of mine this morning.

Have fun! There's always room for a hearty breakfast, but watch that liquid intake - the last thing you want is a rest break mid film!

I've got an AM showing so my fiance and I are thinking fancy breakfast out before the movie. I'm thinking biscuits and gravy with a good bloody mary.

No spoilers except in threads marked as "SPOILERS"

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just started in September. It's amazingly fun. I have a good community of players in my area showing me the ropes. I've spent prob $180 so far, completely worth it. I love this game. It's a hobby, not a plot to bleed fans dry.

Relax, bro.

I could really do with a bacon sandwich right now.

Maybe topped with a fried egg.

It's been a while since we had a good breakfast thread. I'm going to see TFA this morning at 9:30 at the Alamo drafthouse, so I think a shandy will be part of mine this morning.

Have fun! There's always room for a hearty breakfast, but watch that liquid intake - the last thing you want is a rest break mid film!

I've got an AM showing so my fiance and I are thinking fancy breakfast out before the movie. I'm thinking biscuits and gravy with a good bloody mary.

No spoilers except in threads marked as "SPOILERS"

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The gravy has chorizo in it.

Boom. Spoiled.

No spoilers except in threads marked as "SPOILERS"

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I didn't realise breakfasts needed spoiler tags!

HAH! I CANNOT DEFEAT TaeSWXW's NINJUTSU STYLE!

I'm going to drown this thread in gravy.

I can't tell if the OP and subsequent posts by the OP is a joke or not.

I can't tell if the OP and subsequent posts by the OP is a joke or not.

Nothing posted between 8PM and 8AM the following day can be considered serious. OP hadn't had breakfast yet and cannot be trusted to have been thinking straight.

Speaking of Ackbar, does anyone else find it weird that he is the one considered a tactical genius, yet it was Lando that won the Battle of Endor? Lando realized the shields were up, Lando was the one that kept Ackbar from retreating, and Lando was the one that ordered them to get close to the star destroyers to get cover from the death star?

Oh my god, you're right!

Then again, I've kind of thought of Admiral Ackbar as the supreme, promoted version of Captain Obvious.

"IT'S A TRAP!!!"

Thanks for stating the obvious and keeping your cool, Ackbar.

Yeah but they didn't stand a chance against those Star Destroyers! Besides, Lando... Lando has a LOT of making up to do. AND! And... He owes Han a satellite dish. Do you even know what it costs to get a Telus guy out that far? And you thought an appointment between 8am and 4pm was asinine... LOL.

How about Ackbars pal in the background there? I always got a laugh out of him. The Mon Cal Who Points, remember him? Probably not because his epic fish hand fin thing wave was totally eclipsed by Sir Ackbars performance. But he is there, pointing stage left, the stage right... like a pro!