Hmmm,

Looks suspiciously like a GW business move.

Only when they did something similar a couple of years back the sky fell in. Apparently.

Cheers

Baaa

Hmmm,

Looks suspiciously like a GW business move.

Only when they did something similar a couple of years back the sky fell in. Apparently.

Cheers

Baaa

Well, I don't play GW games anymore, in part because of their attitude to their customers. I really hope FFG doesn't take them as a role model

It doesn't really give many details of particulars, so its impossible to know if it is a profit maximizing, or a well-intentioned attempt to keep the LGS in business. The flowery language and declared intents in these kinds of PR statements is largely meaningless. We will have to wait and see what the actual implications are.

Given that FFG is well known for paying its employees low wages for the game industry while the CEO appears to be doing quite well, I remain skeptical.

Either way, reducing customer options is always a bad thing for the customer.

Asmodee/FFG is owned by a publicly traded private equity firm. FFG has had geometric growth in the last several years. If that growth is tapering off due to inevitable market saturation, they will be under pressure to maximize the revenue stream by other means. Wall Street expects infinite geometric growth.

It doesn't really give many details of particulars, so its impossible to know if it is a profit maximizing, or a well-intentioned attempt to keep the LGS in business. The flowery language and declared intents in these kinds of PR statements is largely meaningless. We will have to wait and see what the actual implications are.

Given that FFG is well known for paying its employees low wages for the game industry while the CEO appears to be doing quite well, I remain skeptical.

Either way, reducing customer options is always a bad thing for the customer.

Asmodee/FFG is owned by a publicly traded private equity firm. FFG has had geometric growth in the last several years. If that growth is tapering off due to inevitable market saturation, they will be under pressure to maximize the revenue stream by other means. Wall Street expects infinite geometric growth.

Gotta disagree with you on a few of those items:

1. Reducing options for the customer always hurts is isn't always a bad thing. In the long run this move supports local businesses without which this game would be hard-pressed to continue to exist. Improving the profit margins of the shops means we have more places to play, more tournaments to compete in, better prizes to win, and a better selection to pick from.

2. Infinite growth is... what it is. But I think assuming that FFG is shooting for an unsustainable growth rate based of the ownership of the new management is short sighted. Throttling the online channel is inherently a sustainability move and is not one taken lightly. Even a popular brand will see a revenue hit when online sales are controlled and is not a move to be taken lightly. The very fact that FFG/Asmodee is going down this road tells us that the overall management is interested in seeing long term sustainability in the gaming community.

Myself I kinda hope they do what I believe PP does with their stuff like warmachine and hordes. Or maybe it was Flames of War... But they actually have it so a online retailer can not offer more then a 10% reduction on their product.

I know getting stuff for a 3rd off on MM and CSI is nice, but there's no question it hurts the LGS who can't compete with that kind of discount. A 10% discount however still lets online retailers do decent business, yet keeps the LGS more competitive.

But, kicking Diamond/Alliance around is always a good thing.

Well, I don't play GW games anymore, in part because of their attitude to their customers. I really hope FFG doesn't take them as a role model

FFG don't have much of a choice in where their business model is going anymore; Asmodee and the companies who own the IP to their licences will decide that one.

It was Flames of War who told their retailers that the couldn't sell below a minimum point. And (in the UK at least) it was illegal.

There's not a lot of substance in what's been said, but reading between the lines it looks as though Asmodee are going to do something very similar to the GW sliding scale discount that they offer to retailers.

Cheers

Baaa

GW did this years ago and people either got around it by phoning in orders or went to ebay for similar discounts. I will still buy all the stuff as I did before. While I like getting 30% off retail prices I also accept that the FLGS are the people putting all the work in so that I can have a place to play and they deserve a fair chance and earning my business. I have played all day at a store then gone home and ordered product they had online because a raider at MSRP is 30 dollars more than one I can get online and with no tax. Meanwhile the people that operate these stores are struggling. X-wing is already fairly priced and not crazy like 40k is so I don't mind if the online deals go away. you will still be able to buy online and probably still at discount it just won't be advertised as much.

For those complaining that they do not have a Local Gaming Store, this move makes it significantly more likely that you might one day.

Yep. The stores in my local area that have folded over the last few years even as tabletop gaming has accelerated might still be around if more companies did this.

Might still be around if they provided services people saw as worth the extra money.

I'm not really qualified to speak as I have not used a LGS for 20+ years (the group I game with meets in a bar) but I struggle with this whole issue and can only equate it to comic buying. As a consumer, I want the best prices but as a "community member" I go to my LCBS and pay more than I would online because I want to be able to browse back issues, variants, toys, all the other stuff they have there (even though I almost always only buy a few comics) and enjoy the atmosphere. It's been such a part of my life that I started taking my daughter with me at about 15 months and now, at 2 years, it's one of her favorite things for us to do on weekends together.

But, even though there is a LGS less than 15 miles from my home that have an X-Wing day, it falls on weekends and I don't get to go (I spend almost all of my free time with my kids/wife, until they go to sleep) and I have never set foot inside. From what I've seen on here and FB groups, they charge admission to cover that cost of gaming (but minimal amounts, not enough to pay rent or insurance with), they provide atmosphere and community (similar to my LCBS comments), but what else is there? If the whole LGS model is based on the dying B&M trade, isn't this just going to end badly at some point for most of them?

Again, these are questions and statements out of acknowledged ignorance, looking to be enlightened, not start arguments.

If the whole LGS model is based on the dying B&M trade, isn't this just going to end badly at some point for most of them?

Honestly without the LGS there's going to be very little market for miniature games In the US anyway. Most people can't really manage the overhead involved in many mini games. Because they require a 4x6 if not larger table, and then there's the terrain and other stuff involved.

What the LGS offers most is space. Few people have the room for a single game, let alone table space for 6-10 people to play at the same time.

In the US at least there are no bars or really clubs to play at, the LGS is really the only option for us.

Reducing options for the customer always hurts is isn't always a bad thing.

Translation: "hurt" = possibly an automatic price increase. It's their game so they can price it however they want. They are in business to make money. Their primary motivation for fostering LGS, if that really even is what it is all about, is likely so they can make more money in the long run. It's impossible to really know anything about motivations, but again, look at their own employees. Working at a "cool game company" is essentially considered part of your compensation package, to the detriment of having to work excessive overtime hours unpaid, while on a salary that is very low for the industry. Case in point, Frank and Wade came out to the NOVA Open completely on their own time. They were working very long hours those days, and got paid zero for it. If that's how the CEO treats his own employees, then it is completely unreasonable to assume that he would treat his customers any better. On the flip side, while details of the FFG/Asmodee merger are not public, one would assume that Christian Petersen made out well in the deal, otherwise he wouldn't have sold his company. This is well within his right as CEO (and former owner) of the company, so I'm not condemning him for it; it is a shrewd business move that I'm sure has made him a substantial sum of money. But lets not pretend that FFG is suddenly philanthropic. Call a spade a spade.

In the long run this move supports local businesses without which this game would be hard-pressed to continue to exist. Improving the profit margins of the shops means we have more places to play, more tournaments to compete in, better prizes to win, and a better selection to pick from.

The very model of the local game store is changing. Businesses will adapt or die, and nothing can change that in the long run. You can attempt to subsidize buggy-whip manufacturers as much as you want, but eventually everyone will own a car and they will go out of business or change their business model. FFG is perpetuating the existing business model by ONLY allowing LGS to purchase organized play kits. What if you are in an area without a FLGS? Tough, no OP kits for you. Want to start a gaming club to help support the community in your area? Great, but don't expect to get any OP kits from FFG.

The service that the local game store provides, for me anyway, is not offering the game for sale. You can buy the game in many locations, online at MM or CSI, or even amazon. I'm not an impulse shopper that NEEDS the game instantly on release day. If I'm going to do a full-wave buy and spend ~$200 each wave then I can wait a few days rather than spending 50% more to pay full MSRP at a local store.

If you really want to support your LGS, then buy online, take the difference you saved from MSRP, and literally just hand your FLGS a wad of cash equal to that amount. They will probably make more money that way anyway, because they don't get the volume discounts and have more overhead due to scale of operations. If anyone here actually owns and runs a LGS and wants to share what they pay for product then feel free to educate us.

The main service my FLGS offers, for me, is providing a place to play the game. The closest game store to me that has an X-wing community is a 40-45 minute drive. I basically show up on the semi-weekly tournament nights and pay my entry fee. They order multiple seasonal kits, and I pay my entry fee when I participate in those tournaments as well.

But I think assuming that FFG is shooting for an unsustainable growth rate based of the ownership of the new management is short sighted. Throttling the online channel is inherently a sustainability move and is not one taken lightly. Even a popular brand will see a revenue hit when online sales are controlled and is not a move to be taken lightly. The very fact that FFG/Asmodee is going down this road tells us that the overall management is interested in seeing long term sustainability in the gaming community.

I'm not assuming that's what FFG is shooting for, only that they will inevitably get top down pressure. The deal Christian Petersen made to sell his company undoubtedly was based on forward P/E ratios for FFG at the time. The new parent company has a legal obligation to its shareholders to attempt to achieve the revenue growth that was projected in the deal.

I'll simply stop buying it if they're refusing to sell.

I have to agree that a lot is being read into this announcement, so far. But, I've been warned a change is taking place. Time to start getting Barnes and Nobles coupons again, just to be on the safe side.

Reducing options for the customer always hurts is isn't always a bad thing.

Translation: "hurt" = possibly an automatic price increase. It's their game so they can price it however they want. They are in business to make money. Their primary motivation for fostering LGS, if that really even is what it is all about, is likely so they can make more money in the long run. It's impossible to really know anything about motivations, but again, look at their own employees. Working at a "cool game company" is essentially considered part of your compensation package, to the detriment of having to work excessive overtime hours unpaid, while on a salary that is very low for the industry. Case in point, Frank and Wade came out to the NOVA Open completely on their own time. They were working very long hours those days, and got paid zero for it. If that's how the CEO treats his own employees, then it is completely unreasonable to assume that he would treat his customers any better. On the flip side, while details of the FFG/Asmodee merger are not public, one would assume that Christian Petersen made out well in the deal, otherwise he wouldn't have sold his company. This is well within his right as CEO (and former owner) of the company, so I'm not condemning him for it; it is a shrewd business move that I'm sure has made him a substantial sum of money. But lets not pretend that FFG is suddenly philanthropic. Call a spade a spade.

In the long run this move supports local businesses without which this game would be hard-pressed to continue to exist. Improving the profit margins of the shops means we have more places to play, more tournaments to compete in, better prizes to win, and a better selection to pick from.

The very model of the local game store is changing. Businesses will adapt or die, and nothing can change that in the long run. You can attempt to subsidize buggy-whip manufacturers as much as you want, but eventually everyone will own a car and they will go out of business or change their business model. FFG is perpetuating the existing business model by ONLY allowing LGS to purchase organized play kits. What if you are in an area without a FLGS? Tough, no OP kits for you. Want to start a gaming club to help support the community in your area? Great, but don't expect to get any OP kits from FFG.

The service that the local game store provides, for me anyway, is not offering the game for sale. You can buy the game in many locations, online at MM or CSI, or even amazon. I'm not an impulse shopper that NEEDS the game instantly on release day. If I'm going to do a full-wave buy and spend ~$200 each wave then I can wait a few days rather than spending 50% more to pay full MSRP at a local store.

If you really want to support your LGS, then buy online, take the difference you saved from MSRP, and literally just hand your FLGS a wad of cash equal to that amount. They will probably make more money that way anyway, because they don't get the volume discounts and have more overhead due to scale of operations. If anyone here actually owns and runs a LGS and wants to share what they pay for product then feel free to educate us.

The main service my FLGS offers, for me, is providing a place to play the game. The closest game store to me that has an X-wing community is a 40-45 minute drive. I basically show up on the semi-weekly tournament nights and pay my entry fee. They order multiple seasonal kits, and I pay my entry fee when I participate in those tournaments as well.

But I think assuming that FFG is shooting for an unsustainable growth rate based of the ownership of the new management is short sighted. Throttling the online channel is inherently a sustainability move and is not one taken lightly. Even a popular brand will see a revenue hit when online sales are controlled and is not a move to be taken lightly. The very fact that FFG/Asmodee is going down this road tells us that the overall management is interested in seeing long term sustainability in the gaming community.

I'm not assuming that's what FFG is shooting for, only that they will inevitably get top down pressure. The deal Christian Petersen made to sell his company undoubtedly was based on forward P/E ratios for FFG at the time. The new parent company has a legal obligation to its shareholders to attempt to achieve the revenue growth that was projected in the deal.

Let me put it to you this way - the company I work for is spearheading a brick-and-mortar refocusing in our own industry and I believe that a lot of what we have seen as a business and an industry applies to this particular situation. We are equal parts distributor and manufacturer so I know how this type of move affects both distribution and IP. Many of the vendors we work with and even our internal brands are individually large enough to encompass the entire gaming industry.

This is all to say that when we made the move to support brick and mortar it hurt. It hurt our revenue, it hurt our profits, but we believe over the long term it will result in a larger and healthier retail community that will (hopefully) continue to do business with us at or exceed the current volume for years to come. Doing this is not a logical decision as there is no guarantee of a payoff and but it is the correct ethical decision from a sustainability standpoint. FFG/Asmodee could make more profit in the short run by continuing to do business as they have been or even open up their products to more channels - this would be, in my opinion, the course of action they would take if ROI was their primary focus.

Without the fear of losing sales to discount channels shops can carry more inventory which they can buy at deeper volume discounts. This allows them to increase revenue and profit all while providing more services to their customers.

Let me put it to you this way - the company I work for is spearheading a brick-and-mortar refocusing in our own industry and I believe that a lot of what we have seen as a business and an industry applies to this particular situation. We are equal parts distributor and manufacturer so I know how this type of move affects both distribution and IP. Many of the vendors we work with and even our internal brands are individually large enough to encompass the entire gaming industry.

This is all to say that when we made the move to support brick and mortar it hurt. It hurt our revenue, it hurt our profits, but we believe over the long term it will result in a larger and healthier retail community that will (hopefully) continue to do business with us at or exceed the current volume for years to come. Doing this is not a logical decision as there is no guarantee of a payoff and but it is the correct ethical decision from a sustainability standpoint. FFG/Asmodee could make more profit in the short run by continuing to do business as they have been or even open up their products to more channels - this would be, in my opinion, the course of action they would take if ROI was their primary focus.

Without the fear of losing sales to discount channels shops can carry more inventory which they can buy at deeper volume discounts. This allows them to increase revenue and profit all while providing more services to their customers.

I'll consider paying MSRP when the CEO pays his employees a fair wage. Until then I'll take his approach and maximize my wallet.

Let me put it to you this way - the company I work for is spearheading a brick-and-mortar refocusing in our own industry and I believe that a lot of what we have seen as a business and an industry applies to this particular situation. We are equal parts distributor and manufacturer so I know how this type of move affects both distribution and IP. Many of the vendors we work with and even our internal brands are individually large enough to encompass the entire gaming industry.

This is all to say that when we made the move to support brick and mortar it hurt. It hurt our revenue, it hurt our profits, but we believe over the long term it will result in a larger and healthier retail community that will (hopefully) continue to do business with us at or exceed the current volume for years to come. Doing this is not a logical decision as there is no guarantee of a payoff and but it is the correct ethical decision from a sustainability standpoint. FFG/Asmodee could make more profit in the short run by continuing to do business as they have been or even open up their products to more channels - this would be, in my opinion, the course of action they would take if ROI was their primary focus.

Without the fear of losing sales to discount channels shops can carry more inventory which they can buy at deeper volume discounts. This allows them to increase revenue and profit all while providing more services to their customers.

I'll consider paying MSRP when the CEO pays his employees a fair wage. Until then I'll take his approach and maximize my wallet.

That's your decision as a consumer and voting with your wallet is an extremely conscientious thing to do.

Understand that I'm not trying to say FFG are the good guys - just that what they're doing as an organization is good for the industry and therefore us the consumers.

(My industry also pays below average for a given skill set but most of us agree that the more laid back environment, product discounting, easy PTO, and opportunity to be involved in the direction of a thing we love is well worth the difference in salary. Those that do have issues with pay either move up the ladder or leave.)

I'll consider paying MSRP when the CEO pays his employees a fair wage. Until then I'll take his approach and maximize my wallet.

While admirable and voting with your wallet is good I'm not positive that the impact is remotely felt by ffg. Not because you are a single person but because unless I'm mistaken they make their money off whatever middleman you pay in equal amounts regardless.

I'll consider paying MSRP when the CEO pays his employees a fair wage. Until then I'll take his approach and maximize my wallet.

While admirable and voting with your wallet is good I'm not positive that the impact is remotely felt by ffg. Not because you are a single person but because unless I'm mistaken they make their money off whatever middleman you pay in equal amounts regardless.

Yup.

If the whole LGS model is based on the dying B&M trade, isn't this just going to end badly at some point for most of them?

Honestly without the LGS there's going to be very little market for miniature games In the US anyway. Most people can't really manage the overhead involved in many mini games. Because they require a 4x6 if not larger table, and then there's the terrain and other stuff involved.What the LGS offers most is space. Few people have the room for a single game, let alone table space for 6-10 people to play at the same time.In the US at least there are no bars or really clubs to play at, the LGS is really the only option for us.

I suspect we in the US are going be be seeing a gradual shift toward something that more resembles the European gaming club model rather than the game store model we arer familiar with. As board and hobby games become more popular here in the states we are starting to see more "game cafés" popping up, places that don't really offer games for sale, but charge a table fee to play at their space and provide other services, such as food and drink or a game library, to keep their doors open. Years ago I envisioned a game "store" that had various levels of paid membership tiers. You buy an annual membership and that entitled you to purchase games at a set discount and use the facilities, the higher tier memberships got bigger discounts, while anyone who didn't buy a membership could come in and pay retail price. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see US stores start exploring various options like that in the coming years/decades.

As board and hobby games become more popular here in the states we are starting to see more "game cafés" popping up, places that don't really offer games for sale, but charge a table fee to play at their space and provide other services, such as food and drink or a game library, to keep their doors open

I had no idea

I'll consider paying MSRP when the CEO pays his employees a fair wage. Until then I'll take his approach and maximize my wallet.

You do understand that FFG currently makes the same amount of money from each expansion from both LGSs and miniature market, right? In fact, this change (if I am understanding it correctly), will likely mean that FFG will make MORE money from products that are sold online than they would from the same product being sold in a brick and mortar

Maybe this is a silly question, but if they're going to open up selling more directly to retailers, what are the chances "I" can set myself up as a 'retailer" to buy direct?

Maybe this is a silly question, but if they're going to open up selling more directly to retailers, what are the chances "I" can set myself up as a 'retailer" to buy direct?

Assuming Asmodee/FFG's account setup team is any good? Very low.

I'll consider paying MSRP when the CEO pays his employees a fair wage. Until then I'll take his approach and maximize my wallet.

While admirable and voting with your wallet is good I'm not positive that the impact is remotely felt by ffg. Not because you are a single person but because unless I'm mistaken they make their money off whatever middleman you pay in equal amounts regardless.

Quite possibly true, although can anyone confirm / deny that FFG gives MM/CSI volume discounts? If so they might see more revenue from selling to LGS.

In any event, the flip side is that the local community in the FLGS is organized by, and for, the players. The game store basically just provides space. They understand this and are looking to move to another location that can maximize their table space for players (of all games).

Maybe this is a silly question, but if they're going to open up selling more directly to retailers, what are the chances "I" can set myself up as a 'retailer" to buy direct?

In theory, if you had a business license and were registered with the local Chamber of Commerce, you would count - however, you'd also need to actually, properly setup the mechanics of a business like a business bank account and some vendors/disti's might want to see things like credit ratings, etc.

If there's an easy way to do it, someone please chime in and we can all become retailers and TAKE THE POWER BACK.