I wonder whether Phasma got off StarKiller with Ren and Officer guy. Though, tbh, I have no idea how Ren would've gotten off anyway. I guess someone picked him up in the moments before it blew.

Then somehow escaped before it returned into being a sun.

All in a few minutes.

Man, there was a number of weird plot holes in the film.

Starting with Aftermath everything is canon now.

Actually Rebel Dawn was the first of the canon, Aftermath is just the first post Endor. And the Shattered Empire comic series is also post Endor. Lost Stars goes from before the movies to during the movies to battle of Jakku.

I'll probably try to pick up some of these books. I'd heard Aftermath was dreadful, though, and the "young adult" lines put me off a bit!

So. I am going to make a case here. This is highly an opinion but something that been churning in my brain and something I want to share.

A lot of people here and I know a lot of people in my friend circle have made the case that this movie is a lot like ANH, and you know what? It is. Now, why is it like the New Hope? Well, you have a droid carrying a piece of vital information, but not really one that has a great impact on either faction's military strategy from as far as anyone can tell. You have a person with a past that is hinted to be larger than their humble upbringing in the middle of no where. You have a world destroying weapon and a group wanting to stop it.

But how did we get to this place?

Well, the Empire was started by a power hungry Sith with the wish to rule the galaxy, by fear and force. This Empire came to be on the back of a failing and stagnant Republic. This Empire was broken by defeats on Endor and later Jakku, it was a large power that was crippled by the people it seeked to control.

After the Empire was defeat, it seems the Republic demilitarized a great bit and went to being a peaceful and democratic power, much like the Republic before it or the UN of today. This Republic obviously did it's best to keep order and did for near 20 years. (First order looks around 10 years old) While this Republic grew, a new Jedi Order grew at the hands of Luke, an imperfect jedi by any standard, but he obviously hoped to make a new line of defenders of the Republic. Everyone wanted to make things the way they used to be...

So things happened the same way they did before.

Promises of greater power came to claim one of the Jedi's own, bringing the downfall of their kind at the hands of one of their own.
The Republic grew too large and too inefficient and a group grew in it's blind spots to refute it's power because it did not agree with it's style of rule. Then, when history was on the cusp of repeating itself, instead of the people old enough to see this was happening trying to stop it, they all abandoned the Galaxy to it's own devices, feeling like they could not stop it. Luke had every chance to see what the First Order and Knights of Ren were becoming, how it might go, and he ran away. History repeated itself like it does so often in Humanity because no one stood up to notice or lived long enough to see the pattern. (Except maybe the Resistance and "It's a death star!" guy)

When a growing splinter power wishes to fight against a regime it seems as oppressive, they will adopt an ideal that in days past was opposition to that power. The Rebels drew on the Republic's ideals and style when fighting the Empire, and the New Order drew on the tech/style/and technological ideas of the Empire, a symbolic and effective flag to rally behind. (I'm sure there's many in the Galaxy that were happier under the Empire's rule and detest the New Republic)

So this, I think, is a totally fair reason for parallels in the story and why I, for one, accept them.

I think the movie was made with expanded universe sensibilities, with little elements of cleverness from characters you would more see in a book than a movie.

The movie had its moments. I certainly liked it more than 1-3. But the deep hope I felt watching 4-6 wasn't really there. Then again I was age 11-16 when 4-6 were in theatres and I'm more world weary and less starry eyed now than I was then.

I have to say, Ren was not a scary bad guy at all.

Vader Mad = Force Choke the Messanger, everyone stands by in pure terror

Ren Mad = Slice up some perfectly good equipment and everyone just kinda pretends it's not happening.

Vader had a reputation, someone to be feared. Poe wasn't even phased by Ren...

He's pretty clearly not supposed to be the same sort of villain as Vader, though that's how he sees himself. He's a confused, angry kid whose issues(Leia mentions the hope that sending him to Luke would help with his problems) allow the Dark Side to get its hooks in him, who turns on his family and on the surface appears dedicated but secretly is conflicted over what he's done. He has some sort of reverence for his grandfather, Darth Vader, and is trying to live up to that reputation, but it appears he doesn't know the whole story, particularly his turn back to the light, or at least doesn't believe it for some reason. He calls Han a liar, did they try to hide it from him, and the revelation tied into his turn?

So no, he's not Vader, at least not Vader from the OT, and has more parallels with PT Anakin in some ways, but he works as a character, I'm curious to see more.

I think the movie was made with expanded universe sensibilities, with little elements of cleverness from characters you would more see in a book than a movie.

The movie had its moments. I certainly liked it more than 1-3. But the deep hope I felt watching 4-6 wasn't really there. Then again I was age 11-16 when 4-6 were in theatres and I'm more world weary and less starry eyed now than I was then.

I think this is a good point. The original movies weren't 'kids movies' in that sense as much as they were all ages adventure movies, but a lot of us saw the originals as kids. I was 9-10 when the 'definitive' VHS release of the original trilogy came out and 11 when the Special Edition of A New Hope hit theaters. There's an element of nostalgia attached to those films and our opinions of them, which isn't to say they weren't good movies of course, but is more to point out that none of us are the kids we were that first time anymore. TFA was an enjoyable movie; the spark that some people in this thread have said they felt was missing while the otherwise enjoyed them may just be you're not a kid taking the ride for the first time anymore.

Not sure I'd say Kylo Ren was whiny.

Not at all. Angry and conflicted yes, but not whiny. I wouldn't say he was childish at all.

Starting with Aftermath everything is canon now.

Actually Rebel Dawn was the first of the canon, Aftermath is just the first post Endor. And the Shattered Empire comic series is also post Endor. Lost Stars goes from before the movies to during the movies to battle of Jakku.

I'll probably try to pick up some of these books. I'd heard Aftermath was dreadful, though, and the "young adult" lines put me off a bit!

Lost Stars is young adult and is amazing.

I liked Aftermath. Plenty of others did too. Make up your own mind. It gives a very large glimpse of a lot of things going on all at once.

Not sure I'd say Kylo Ren was whiny.

Not at all. Angry and conflicted yes, but not whiny. I wouldn't say he was childish at all.

Dude was scary, crazy, and I HATE him.

Therefore he was a great villain. Better than Vader as I never hated Vader like I do him. You should hate the villain really. He is rage pure and simple.

Vader his anger was his strength after Padmes death and his turn in to Vader. Kylo Ren his anger is his weakness because it takes over.

the spark that some people in this thread have said they felt was missing while the otherwise enjoyed them may just be you're not a kid taking the ride for the first time anymore.

Despite that, I still believe a movie can give me that again. Still watching for it.

Lost Stars is young adult and is amazing.

So was Harry Potter, but those were some of the most enjoyable books I've read.

Good movie but not amazing, my biggest question is if Kylo can read minds/pull info why not just pull location of Reb err Resistance base from Poe then crush them with conventional means then capture base. Roll credits

If they had all the info but the piece bb had and knew he was on Jakku then they have nothing to fear with crushing the resistance.

I loved the jokes and comedy aspect of the movie, its gonna make so much money

Because he doesn't care about the Resistance, he cares about finding Luke.

Visually stunning, but I thought the story was just alright.

THE GOOD:

Completely okay with Han's story as others have mentioned it Harrison Ford was looking for a way out decades ago. Would not have been sad if the Falcon went with him. It will take a long time before seeing someone else behind the controls feels natural.

Jacen Kylo Ren was great. I like the story arc of him consciously choosing the dark side rather then necessarily falling into it. The line about him being pulled towards the light side was great.

Poe and BB-8 were fantastic characters and more than that fantastic Star Wars characters. They felt like a part of the universe.

The Stormtroopers looked awesome and the fight between random stormtrooper and Fin was fun to watch.

I need the Special Forces TIE Fighter in my life, like yesterday. That's right FFG turret and a crew slot on a TIE Fighter, make it happen game play balance be damned!

THE BAD:

Scale definitely felt like a step back. The Resistance was what 12-24 T-70's, no capital ships and a platoon of soldiers? The FO has a Star Destroyer 2.0 and planet sized cannon with 30-40 TIE fighters guarding it? ugh

Captain Phasma: Imperial Only: Crew: 3pts: Once per round, enemy players may choose any Imperial ship and choose any maneuver during the Activation Phase. Remove that ship off the board at the end of this round.

-Come on JJ not even a 10 second clip during the battle at the Cantina of her not completely sucking?

Luke pulling a Yoda: The moral of Star Wars, if you mess something up ie. Support Space Hitler and put him in power/support his regime, or train your nephew and have him grow up to be mini-vader 2.0 RUN AWAY and leave it for the next generation to deal with.

Why spend any time training with the Force when you can not use it for 20+ years, get in a lightsaber battle with someone who has, close your eyes and then proceed to kick his ass? I get it, he was shot with a bowcaster and took it like a champ, but really that should make him more dangerous not less.

I 100% agree with your good. Also, Luke pulling a Yoda is pretty lame.

As for the base and the lack of stuff, I actually kind of liked how much the movie payed tribute to a New Hope. It was ridiculous there when the Rebels sent their entire fleet of a dozen star fighters to fight the lonely and unguarded Death Star. Blowing up the entire Republic by hitting one system was also kind of lame. But maybe there will be dozens of factions that are in play after the Empire broke apart with the deaths of Vader and Palpatine and we can see a true galactic conflict! It seems unlikely though.

I thought Ren was most imposing before he started taking off his helmet. Even though I was aware of what Adam Driver looked like before seeing the movie, he just didn't ever convey to me true menace, he just seemed (as others have mentioned) confused and immature and the more he took it off, the more the helmet seemed like an affectation.

Could well be, however, that i"m just looking at his character wrong - I went into the movie knowing nothing but what I saw in the trailers and assumed he was The Big Bad, which didn't feel the be the case. He was the bad guy contextually but he wasn't bad enough for me to be scared by the character and nor was he likable enough to redeem himself in my eyes.

May also throw out that I believe Rey has psychometry . By touching the controls of the Falcon, she instantly knew how to fly. By holding Anakin's lightsaber, she knew how to wield it. I also have little doubt the saber she builds will be a double-bladed one like Darth Maul's due to her preference for using staffs.

I thought Ren was most imposing before he started taking off his helmet. Even though I was aware of what Adam Driver looked like before seeing the movie, he just didn't ever convey to me true menace, he just seemed (as others have mentioned) confused and immature and the more he took it off, the more the helmet seemed like an affectation.

Could well be, however, that i"m just looking at his character wrong - I went into the movie knowing nothing but what I saw in the trailers and assumed he was The Big Bad, which didn't feel the be the case. He was the bad guy contextually but he wasn't bad enough for me to be scared by the character and nor was he likable enough to redeem himself in my eyes.

Well, it seems to me the next movie we'll have Ren having been (or being) fully trained by big Ol' Snoke and Rey being trained by Luke. The two will grow in parallel and come at eachother actually knowing what they're doing.

Also did Ren seem very Revan to anyone else? The mind tampering and pulling information with the force sealed the deal for that though, Revan is the one Sith that did that the most to my knowledge.

Could well be, however, that i"m just looking at his character wrong - I went into the movie knowing nothing but what I saw in the trailers and assumed he was The Big Bad, which didn't feel the be the case. He was the bad guy contextually but he wasn't bad enough for me to be scared by the character and nor was he likable enough to redeem himself in my eyes.

I'm much happier with the version of the character we got than him just being a generic "big bad" as you put it. He's not supposed to be imposing in the way that Vader was just yet. I think the better way to view the character is as Rey's rival. He wants to be the next Vader and the only powerful force-user left in the galaxy which is why he was hunting down Luke. Once Rey started fighting back he immediately got scared and realized that he might be in over his head. These movies are going to be as much about watching him develop into a powerful Sith as they are watching Rey develop into a powerful Jedi.

Could well be, however, that i"m just looking at his character wrong

Far from it, I think you got the point! Just maybe you didn't want it...

I actually liked when Kylo Ren took his helmet off. The SAW voice was a bit grating, and it was nice to have a Star Wars villain that's an actual person and not just some disfigured ugly guy behind a mask or that can shoot lightning from his fingers. Maybe I shouldn't be looking for nuance in a Star Wars movie, lol.

I like Darth Vader but they're never going to top him, so they should just drop the concept because when he has his mask on he's just a sub par Vader. When has has his mask off he's an actual person, with vulnerabilities and emotion.

2.) Too many quick cuts. If they would have just slowed that crap down it would have felt more like the original trilogy. Especially during the fighter sequences it was too fast.

They did not hire JJ Abrams to just mimic George Lucas's style. Kathleen Kennedy has been pretty clear about letting directors having freedom and not having to conform to a company style.

Also, I like that mimicking George Lucas' style is a bad thing now. This is a Star Wars movie, we can't just have people mimicking George Lucas!

Visually stunning, but I thought the story was just alright.

THE GOOD:

Completely okay with Han's story as others have mentioned it Harrison Ford was looking for a way out decades ago. Would not have been sad if the Falcon went with him. It will take a long time before seeing someone else behind the controls feels natural.

Jacen Kylo Ren was great. I like the story arc of him consciously choosing the dark side rather then necessarily falling into it. The line about him being pulled towards the light side was great.

Poe and BB-8 were fantastic characters and more than that fantastic Star Wars characters. They felt like a part of the universe.

The Stormtroopers looked awesome and the fight between random stormtrooper and Fin was fun to watch.

I need the Special Forces TIE Fighter in my life, like yesterday. That's right FFG turret and a crew slot on a TIE Fighter, make it happen game play balance be damned!

THE BAD:

Scale definitely felt like a step back. The Resistance was what 12-24 T-70's, no capital ships and a platoon of soldiers? The FO has a Star Destroyer 2.0 and planet sized cannon with 30-40 TIE fighters guarding it? ugh

Captain Phasma: Imperial Only: Crew: 3pts: Once per round, enemy players may choose any Imperial ship and choose any maneuver during the Activation Phase. Remove that ship off the board at the end of this round.

-Come on JJ not even a 10 second clip during the battle at the Cantina of her not completely sucking?

Luke pulling a Yoda: The moral of Star Wars, if you mess something up ie. Support Space Hitler and put him in power/support his regime, or train your nephew and have him grow up to be mini-vader 2.0 RUN AWAY and leave it for the next generation to deal with.

Why spend any time training with the Force when you can not use it for 20+ years, get in a lightsaber battle with someone who has, close your eyes and then proceed to kick his ass? I get it, he was shot with a bowcaster and took it like a champ, but really that should make him more dangerous not less.

I 100% agree with your good. Also, Luke pulling a Yoda is pretty lame.

As for the base and the lack of stuff, I actually kind of liked how much the movie payed tribute to a New Hope. It was ridiculous there when the Rebels sent their entire fleet of a dozen star fighters to fight the lonely and unguarded Death Star. Blowing up the entire Republic by hitting one system was also kind of lame. But maybe there will be dozens of factions that are in play after the Empire broke apart with the deaths of Vader and Palpatine and we can see a true galactic conflict! It seems unlikely though.

You have a point, besides the Resistance doesn't actually need any other pilots they have Poe!

Could well be, however, that i"m just looking at his character wrong

Far from it, I think you got the point! Just maybe you didn't want it...

Yup, quite probably - again, from watching the trailers and seeing the toy campaign, I had made (incorrect) assumptions about his character and the truth left me a little "so what?" towards him. As I said, he wasn't bad enough to be the villain but wasn't engaging enough for me to care one way or the other about his redemption.

Perhaps viewing #2 will give me a better view on the nuances and subtleties.

The Resistance doesn't need any other pilots than Poe?

Man, Fantasy flight is so on point with their pilot designs!

I think the movie was made with expanded universe sensibilities, with little elements of cleverness from characters you would more see in a book than a movie.

The movie had its moments. I certainly liked it more than 1-3. But the deep hope I felt watching 4-6 wasn't really there. Then again I was age 11-16 when 4-6 were in theatres and I'm more world weary and less starry eyed now than I was then.

It's true isn't it? Especially some of that dialogue... wouldn't have been at all surprised to hear Han say "Kiss my Wookiee!" at some point during that movie.

I actually liked when Kylo Ren took his helmet off. The SAW voice was a bit grating, and it was nice to have a Star Wars villain that's an actual person and not just some disfigured ugly guy behind a mask or that can shoot lightning from his fingers. Maybe I shouldn't be looking for nuance in a Star Wars movie, lol.

Well, he wasn't disfigured...

2.) Too many quick cuts. If they would have just slowed that crap down it would have felt more like the original trilogy. Especially during the fighter sequences it was too fast.

They did not hire JJ Abrams to just mimic George Lucas's style. Kathleen Kennedy has been pretty clear about letting directors having freedom and not having to conform to a company style.

And that's a shame. If every cut in the action sequences lasted more than a half second it'd be better.

Also, I like that mimicking George Lucas' style is a bad thing now. This is a Star Wars movie, we can't just have people mimicking George Lucas!

It isn't that being like Lucas is a bad thing, it is that JJ Abrams is an artist with his own style, with some very particular quirks. While the Saga is a single thing, artists should be allowed to do their own thing, within limits, of course. Don't be like the MCU, where the director is more often than not someone just hired to put the script to screen.

- "Fin" no sweat i know how to disable the shield you see i was a janitor and they showed me how to do it and where the controls are since every janitor should know that... come on!!!!

Except for the part where he admitted later that he was lying, and he had no idea how to disable the shield, and he just wanted them to take him there so he could try and rescue Rey. He and Han had a conversation about it on the planet.