It's about my only complaint about the film that the only thing Snoke (terrible name) can be is an evil Yoda.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, and I'm certain someone must have already discussed this theory in this thread, but contrary to your statement I think the only thing Supreme Leader Snoke the Wise (he's so wise!) can be is Darth Plagueis the Wise who mastered life and death through the force, fooled Palpatine into thinking he killed him so that he could get around the rule of two (really, Palpatine, you think such a powerful Sith would just let you kill him in his sleep?), created Anakin from the Force, and has been quietly observing events from the sideline until, of course, his Force project Anakin turned back to the lightside and died. Now Snoke/Plagueis is using Anakin's grandson to take Luke out of the picture and resume his project to some end goal we don't know about yet.

Quite different from an "evil Yoda" if you ask me, and a genius way to tie all three trilogies together. (please don't ruin this, Disney...)

That assumes Disney aren't running away as fast as their billions of dollars will take them from the prequels.

Why should they reference a reviled set of films?

Other than a passing mention to a gungan genocide we all want.

From what we see in ep7 they are not remotely referencing the prequels when every other scene refers to something from the original trilogy.

From a plot point of view there are essentially 3 options.

A/evil dude is actually that big. That's dumb and would not make for a good final duel.

B/evil dude is just roughly human sized. In which case, why go to the trouble (expensive cgi wise) to create a huge sized villain. That massive hologram only makes sense if...

C/evil dude is small. That makes for a more shocking reveal.

Plus it refers and counterbalances the original trilogies Yoda figure as the good guy.

I'm not saying evil dude is literally of yodas species, but it only really makes sense for him to be small.

Why would there need to be a final duel? I don't remember Luke dueling with Palpatine. Also I don't see why he would be an "evil Yoda" if the only thing he has in common with Yoda is the fact that he's small, if that's all you got out of Yoda then I think you missed the point.

you forgot that the opening sequence is nearly identical. other than the fact that ANH attacks a corvette and TFA attacks a random village in the desert, we have stormtoopers trooping, masked bad guy shows up, rebel operative places sensitive info into droid, said operative is captured. Not complaining, just saying.

I can forgive the opening sequence. Especially since if I were asked to make a movie about warhammer 40K I'd start of with that opening to: starfiled- pan down- ship rips from the warp and head straight for the audience.

There's a significant difference between paying homage and being lazy or playing to too many in-jokes and I think that the lined got blurred a bit in TFA.

Well said!

I have two nitpicks:

a) Stormtrooper Electro-Baton was lame; unnecessary

b) Maz, the 1,000 year old pirate queen and keeper of Anakin's lightsaber was pitifully unprepared for Galactic Bullies of any sort. And that Poe literally whips the floor with these Bullies had me wondering why Maz and her pirate patrons didn't take to arms and help fight The First Order to protect the Castle. Abbrams had the perfect window to introduce Scum&Villainy via Maz and the ball wasn't only dropped, it was completely deflated. Sidenote: It's a Pirate and his Wookiee that help blow up BOTH Deathstars.

Still better than the prequels... Almost as good as RotJ.

Yeah Maz is like Jabba The Hutt if Jabba was a nice old lady. And she reminded me of Edna Mode from The incredibles for some reason.

Yeah Maz is like Jabba The Hutt if Jabba was a nice old lady. And she reminded me of Edna Mode from The incredibles for some reason.

because Kylo's cape slowed him down in his fight with Rey?

There's a significant difference between paying homage and being lazy or playing to too many in-jokes and I think that the lined got blurred a bit in TFA.

Well said!

I'm just calling Maz the "Space Grandma". She gives great advice, bakes cookies, and hands out light sabres.

No they really are.

Speak for yourself, but you're just presenting your emotions about films from more than a decade ago as facts. I like them as I did from the beginning and still think they're pretty good - AotC and RotS are in my top 3 Star Wars flms, and Revenge had pretty good reviews at the time - the best of the series, in fact - when reviewers didn't have the current frame.

As it stand now, the hype has become as stale as the joke that Star Wars fans don't have girlfriends. That may have been funny and even poignant in 1979, but both myths are now as worn out as they can be.

I also rather like the prequels. They're not great movies, but they're not as bad as people have convinced themselves they are. And honestly? Jar Jar Episode 1 is no more annoying or racist caricature than Yoda episodes 5 and 6.

The prequels may not be great movies, but they _are_ great stories. They're the story of how a decade of ever-accelerating beat of war drums causes a galaxy to lose its soul in a rush to glory. And in case that's not obvious enough, the story is repeated in microcosm by Anikan Skywalker. That _story_ is very good.

Shame it's not as well told as it could be. Good thing the Clone Wars came around and told the story more slowly, and with more care.

Also: the space pew pew pew is very satisfying.

No they really are.

Speak for yourself, but you're just presenting your emotions about films from more than a decade ago as facts. I like them as I did from the beginning and still think they're pretty good - AotC and RotS are in my top 3 Star Wars flms, and Revenge had pretty good reviews at the time - the best of the series, in fact - when reviewers didn't have the current frame.

As it stand now, the hype has become as stale as the joke that Star Wars fans don't have girlfriends. That may have been funny and even poignant in 1979, but both myths are now as worn out as they can be.

I also rather like the prequels. They're not great movies, but they're not as bad as people have convinced themselves they are. And honestly? Jar Jar Episode 1 is no more annoying or racist caricature than Yoda episodes 5 and 6.

The prequels may not be great movies, but they _are_ great stories. They're the story of how a decade of ever-accelerating beat of war drums causes a galaxy to lose its soul in a rush to glory. And in case that's not obvious enough, the story is repeated in microcosm by Anikan Skywalker. That _story_ is very good.

Shame it's not as well told as it could be. Good thing the Clone Wars came around and told the story more slowly, and with more care.

Also: the space pew pew pew is very satisfying.

too true too true.

man that's some heresy

here's the difference between Jar Jar and Yoda

Yoda's a clever little *******, going by his dialog, in his first meeting with Luke and he's essential to the story. Jar Jar's a babbling moron who contributes nothing to the plot.

the prequels were indeed **** movies. There's no shame in liking them regardless, but they're definitely not story telling models anyone should seek to emulate. Where TFA flew by, it never cut what made for character building moments.

hell here's a good one:

Episode 1 --> why did the Trade Federation join with sidious? What did they stand to gain by risking angering the senate by invading some out-of-the-way planet? What was the point? Hell, what did Sidious say he wanted with it to make signing the treaty so important? (his real motive, using the situation for political gain, is fine but how did he get the Trade Federation on board?)

Episode 7 --> the conditioning of the storm troopers is made abundantly clear with Finn and captain Phasma's dialog. Kylo Ren's entire character, especially his get-up as a dark knight templar (down to the silly broad-saber, robes and helmet) and his devotion to supreme leader's guidance suggests heavy religious-esque indoctrination. The shrine to Vader seals the deal.Finally, the mind trick shenanigans suggest the possibility of brain washing, especially given the internal conflict v Solo.

the Clone Wars (re: not attack of the clones) did the prequels right, giving character to the incredibly interesting concept of the clone troopers that the prequels completely brushed by, as well as character to our principle cast rather than relying on just telling us "yeah, obi and ani are total bros who had previous adventures and junk"

No they really are.

Speak for yourself, but you're just presenting your emotions about films from more than a decade ago as facts. I like them as I did from the beginning and still think they're pretty good - AotC and RotS are in my top 3 Star Wars flms, and Revenge had pretty good reviews at the time - the best of the series, in fact - when reviewers didn't have the current frame.

As it stand now, the hype has become as stale as the joke that Star Wars fans don't have girlfriends. That may have been funny and even poignant in 1979, but both myths are now as worn out as they can be.

I also rather like the prequels. They're not great movies, but they're not as bad as people have convinced themselves they are. And honestly? Jar Jar Episode 1 is no more annoying or racist caricature than Yoda episodes 5 and 6.

The prequels may not be great movies, but they _are_ great stories. They're the story of how a decade of ever-accelerating beat of war drums causes a galaxy to lose its soul in a rush to glory. And in case that's not obvious enough, the story is repeated in microcosm by Anikan Skywalker. That _story_ is very good.

Shame it's not as well told as it could be. Good thing the Clone Wars came around and told the story more slowly, and with more care.

Also: the space pew pew pew is very satisfying.

There's a big difference between a wise Asian master stereotype and a step-n-fetch black face 'comedian'.

There's a big difference between a wise Asian master stereotype and a step-n-fetch black face 'comedian'.

Naw. Both stereotypes are equally harmful. Differently harmful, but equally harmful. Ask your Asian friends who are, say, better writers than mathematicians about how harmful it can be. Both stereotypes erase the personhood of the people they are about.

I will fully concede that American stereotypes of African Americans have _done more harm_, sure. But that's not actually a conversation that does a whole lot of good.

man that's some heresy

Thanks! I try.

here's the difference between Jar Jar and Yoda

Yoda's a clever little *******, going by his dialog, in his first meeting with Luke and he's essential to the story. Jar Jar's a babbling moron who contributes nothing to the plot.

Jar Jar's contribution to the prequel plot was to be the guy trusting enough to hand dictatorial power over to Chancellor Palpatine. That's an important plot point! And it's fully in keeping with Jar Jar's personality to have been the person who did so.

Someday I'd like to read the epic ballad of Jar Jar Binks: the man so clumsy that he tripped and broke the Republic.

Yoda's contribution to the Prequel story was... every other freaking mistake _execpt_ the ones made by Jar Jar.

First, he _knows_ that Anakin is going to be incredibly strong, and a child of prophecy. So Yoda responds to this by doing everything he can to alienate Anakin. Anakin- who already blames the Jedi for not rising up to free the slaves. This helps teach Anakin that there is no security in justice, only in strength. Yeah. Anakin's first Sith teacher was Yoda. Oops!

Yoda, who also tries for years to find the Sith lord that Yoda is in daily meetings with. But Yoda doesn't quite figure out that he's in daily meetings with a Sith lord.

Yoda, who was so fearful of the Dark Side that he all but exiled Qui-Gon for being too deep in the "living force". Yoda only realized Yoda was wrong to have done this _after Qui-Gon came back from the dead and told him so_.

Yoda, who met Luke the "last hope", and said that he was too old. Whelp. Yoda was one of the two who put Luke on Tatooine and didn't train him. What could he have expected? Also: remember when Luke went into that cave and learned that the only difference between Luke and Darth Vader were the choices each of them had made? Who told Luke _not to go into that cave_? Yup. Yoda.

Yoda clever? Sure. But also the opposite of wise.

prequel Yoda is a huge part of why the prequels sucked

the Yoda as established in the OT would never have acted in the way prequel yoda does. Such character dissonance is but a part of how badly George understood the appeal of his license.

There's a big difference between a wise Asian master stereotype and a step-n-fetch black face 'comedian'.

In both cases, Lucas attempted to present a (jungian) archetype rather than a stereotype. They're different archetypes, sure, but the basic method of communicating with the audience is the same. That is probably why the creators of TPM were so surprised that Jar Jar failed so spectacularly. I think everyone assumed that what had worked before would work again, and since Ahmed Best was apparently a charismatic and funny guy, everything looked good.

prequel Yoda is a huge part of why the prequels sucked

the Yoda as established in the OT would never have acted in the way prequel yoda does. Such character dissonance is but a part of how badly George understood the appeal of his license.

Except that he did try it again with Luke. It Ben hadn't been there to say "come on, man, really?!" Luke would have had to get his training elsewhere.

prequel Yoda is a huge part of why the prequels sucked

the Yoda as established in the OT would never have acted in the way prequel yoda does. Such character dissonance is but a part of how badly George understood the appeal of his license.

Except that he did try it again with Luke. It Ben hadn't been there to say "come on, man, really?!" Luke would have had to get his training elsewhere.

he didn't try anything again

he had the trial with Luke to illustrate a very central conflict

anything that happened in the prequels or EU came after the fact and, given the utter **** quality of the prequel movies, doesn't actually matter

not to mention Yoda personally oversees Luke's training in the OT, whereas the prequels is just weird "he's too old!" (which is directly parroted from ESB...except anakin is 7 and Luke was already an adult) and love is bad etc.

the Prequels were a weird mess of shame and incompetence worth keeping only insofar as we can laugh/learn at their mistakes and for the cool ideas that can be salvaged (such as the Clone Troopers and the Jedi before the fall...so basically the Clone Wars), or if you just enjoy it for w.e reason. It is not something we should ever have influencing (corrupting) our enjoyment of the OT, since it's basically a big fat (****) retcon

OT Yoda: everything he said and did was part of Luke's training, from the 'crazy old man' when they first met to the 'discouraging' 'he's too old' and 'you will be (afraid)' to 'that is why you fail' and so on. And Yoda was totally into the living force, they way he described it was pretty obvious.

PT Yoda: dispenses no wisdom. Is himself afraid to let Anakin be trained, and still reluctantly lets Oni Wan train him because of feeling guilty for Qui Gon. Is totally tricked into setting up he Jedi to fight a war they could not win without clones, and ultimately leaving the order at the mercies of troops loyal to the republic and the chancellor, not the Jedi. Pushed Anakin away at every turn despite being aware of his feelings. Let Mace call the shots way too many times. Underestimated Palpatine and the sith time and time again. Forgot his adderall right before his fights with Dooku and Palpy.

Why didn't prequel Yoda already live in a swamp somewhere? Was it really necessary to ruin a character by writing him into a war he never said he fought? Mace, Qui Adi Mundi and the rest could have been our examples of the Jedi order in decline while Yoda represented a more ancient part of the order, a teacher that must be sought out who doesn't live in a temple but as a humble servant living in a swamp. It could have been Obi-wan's back story that he already searched and found Yoda and so when he found Anakin (completely writing off Qui Gonnas superfluous) he felt he could do the same job Yoda did as opposed to the more rigid Temple Jedi ways. Except Kenobi wasn't up to it...I guess in that version the council would have been right to forbid Anakin's training but Kenobi would have taught him anyway.

Wait, did I just rewrite the prequels and save Yoda's character in just a few sentences? Well, it didn't take much to screw up the prequels in the first place...

I know a lot of people won't like it but, apparently Disney is making SW a multi media affair, and that means books will fill in the gaps. If you're not a reader this sucks, but it appears that is the way it's going to be so, yes, if you want to know more going forward don't expect movies to tell you everything, you're going to have to pick up a book. BTW, even if you aren't an avid reader, most of the new novels are really short and written at a middle school level which, as a reader, bugs me but I see why they are doing it. You may not like it, and I'm not certain I'm sold on the idea just yet, but it's Disney's now and it appears this is the way it's going to be.

Avid original EU fan here. I'm never buying a disney canon book. I shouldn't have to rely on a book to explain things. Books are nice to expand on things or continue them. Also, they made a big deal about levels of canon and how the new canon would all be equal. Yet they've already stated that if a book/comic doesn't agree with the movies then that part of the book is not canon.

All canon is equal excpet the movies are more equal.

I haven't read any of the Nu canon stuff but I was able to follow the movie. I also haven't read any of the Legends stuff in over 15 years either, I just could t stand it any more. Glad it was junked. The new stuff coming out today may be junked eventually in he future as well, so why bother unless someone says you should read it because it's actually good. And the only thing anyone has said was good has been the Vader Comic, so I will wait for the trade to come out to read it.

All canon is equal excpet the movies are more equal.

I haven't read any of the Nu canon stuff but I was able to follow the movie. I also haven't read any of the Legends stuff in over 15 years either, I just could t stand it any more. Glad it was junked. The new stuff coming out today may be junked eventually in he future as well, so why bother unless someone says you should read it because it's actually good. And the only thing anyone has said was good has been the Vader Comic, so I will wait for the trade to come out to read it.

All canon is equal excpet the movies are more equal.

So confused.

If the new canon gets full of junk will they just reset again?

All canon is equal excpet the movies are more equal.

So confused.

If the new canon gets full of junk will they just reset again?

Long answer: it depends.

Short answer: yes

If the new canon gets full of junk will they just reset again?

Depends, suppose in ep VIII we find out the midicholrians saved Han. Would people like that or hate it?