In Episode IV, Obi Wan bangs on about Jedi Knights and Luke's dad and we all just accept this. He disappears into nothing, we have no idea who the empire are or why they exist, etc etc and people just accept the film for the adventure it is and move on. I, for one, am glad that characters don't talk to each other for ages in TFA with useless exposition. We get what we need from the opening crawl; if you want more then you can explore novels etc.

I don't get why this is a problem with TFA but not with the OT...

BECAAUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE

OLD STUFF IS SACRED DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND!?

I could completely believe that R2-D2 is a Jedi. It could work.

There is a story in the now (thankfully) defunct EU where R5-D4 (the red unit that blows a motivator in ANH) is actually a Jedi, sees the future and decides to cripple himself to allow R2 to finish his mission.

Yup, I'm so glad that BS was all shoved in a backroom like an embarrassing and senile relative.

Edit: In all his glory, Skippy the Jedi droid.

B-BU-BUT-B-B-B-B-BUT

#LEGENDS#FOREVER

Awesome comment from Scalzi's Force Awakens review thread (which is generally great: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2015/12/18/my-non-spoilery-review-of-the-force-awakens/ )

I can’t help but think of these movies in terms of a roleplaying game. Han is a DMPC and his old gaming buddies, the players behind Leia, Luke, and Chewy are dropping in to play using their old characters with the new group he got together. The campaign is kind of a rehash of the original one they all played in but it’s ok, the new kids don’t notice and the old gang enjoy the nostalgia. Finn’s player is an RPG noob who wants to play a Stormtrooper even though the PC’s aren’t Empire/First Order aligned, so he settles for “ex-Stormtrooper” and proceeds to create a totally un-optimized character (too many points in Charisma). He begs the DM to let him have Stormtrooper armor and the DM relents, but then maroons him on a desert planet with a dead suit power cell and enforces the hazardous environment rules. Poe’s player is big into the X-Wing tactical miniatures game and has dozens of mini’s (that’s why he got invited in the first place), but after the first session he only shows up when there’s a ship-borne encounter on the agenda. Rey keeps min/maxing by not declaring her feat and skill assignments when she takes a new class level until she hits a situation where she needs them in game.

*lol*

I rated the movie a 3 (of 5, other thread). with that in mind it'd be a 3,5 - 4.

kylo ren is the little brother somebody brings to the rpg-round. he's basically the young kid, impulsive and a sore loser; he's just there because the group really needed another person, and his immature behavior is ticking people off. continue this another movie or 2, and prepare to get a beating, youngling

I know a lot of people won't like it but, apparently Disney is making SW a multi media affair, and that means books will fill in the gaps. If you're not a reader this sucks, but it appears that is the way it's going to be so, yes, if you want to know more going forward don't expect movies to tell you everything, you're going to have to pick up a book. BTW, even if you aren't an avid reader, most of the new novels are really short and written at a middle school level which, as a reader, bugs me but I see why they are doing it. You may not like it, and I'm not certain I'm sold on the idea just yet, but it's Disney's now and it appears this is the way it's going to be.

I know a lot of people won't like it but, apparently Disney is making SW a multi media affair, and that means books will fill in the gaps. If you're not a reader this sucks, but it appears that is the way it's going to be so, yes, if you want to know more going forward don't expect movies to tell you everything, you're going to have to pick up a book. BTW, even if you aren't an avid reader, most of the new novels are really short and written at a middle school level which, as a reader, bugs me but I see why they are doing it. You may not like it, and I'm not certain I'm sold on the idea just yet, but it's Disney's now and it appears this is the way it's going to be.

Thus far, the novels have been painful to read. "Middle-school level" is being kind. Ironically, the comics are not only better written, but better at filling in the gaps between the movies. The Vader series, in particular, is a must-read for any SW fan IMO. I love the story, artwork, and inclusion of many classic characters.

Awesome comment from Scalzi's Force Awakens review thread (which is generally great: [/size]http://whatever.scalzi.com/2015/12/18/my-non-spoilery-review-of-the-force-awakens/ )[/size]

I can’t help but think of these movies in terms of a roleplaying game. Han is a DMPC and his old gaming buddies, the players behind Leia, Luke, and Chewy are dropping in to play using their old characters with the new group he got together. The campaign is kind of a rehash of the original one they all played in but it’s ok, the new kids don’t notice and the old gang enjoy the nostalgia. Finn’s player is an RPG noob who wants to play a Stormtrooper even though the PC’s aren’t Empire/First Order aligned, so he settles for “ex-Stormtrooper” and proceeds to create a totally un-optimized character (too many points in Charisma). He begs the DM to let him have Stormtrooper armor and the DM relents, but then maroons him on a desert planet with a dead suit power cell and enforces the hazardous environment rules. Poe’s player is big into the X-Wing tactical miniatures game and has dozens of mini’s (that’s why he got invited in the first place), but after the first session he only shows up when there’s a ship-borne encounter on the agenda. Rey keeps min/maxing by not declaring her feat and skill assignments when she takes a new class level until she hits a situation where she needs them in game.

I know a lot of people won't like it but, apparently Disney is making SW a multi media affair, and that means books will fill in the gaps. If you're not a reader this sucks, but it appears that is the way it's going to be so, yes, if you want to know more going forward don't expect movies to tell you everything, you're going to have to pick up a book. BTW, even if you aren't an avid reader, most of the new novels are really short and written at a middle school level which, as a reader, bugs me but I see why they are doing it. You may not like it, and I'm not certain I'm sold on the idea just yet, but it's Disney's now and it appears this is the way it's going to be.

Thus far, the novels have been painful to read. "Middle-school level" is being kind. Ironically, the comics are not only better written, but better at filling in the gaps between the movies. The Vader series, in particular, is a must-read for any SW fan IMO. I love the story, artwork, and inclusion of many classic characters.

agreed, I was trying to be kind because I'm trying to like them. I'm a fan of the legends, yes lots of inconsistencies but I was more interested in character development and where they all wound up, especially Luke, which it seems at this point there is going to be very little room for Luke develop (years of exile don't seem like THAT exciting of a story).

I know a lot of people won't like it but, apparently Disney is making SW a multi media affair, and that means books will fill in the gaps. If you're not a reader this sucks, but it appears that is the way it's going to be so, yes, if you want to know more going forward don't expect movies to tell you everything, you're going to have to pick up a book. BTW, even if you aren't an avid reader, most of the new novels are really short and written at a middle school level which, as a reader, bugs me but I see why they are doing it. You may not like it, and I'm not certain I'm sold on the idea just yet, but it's Disney's now and it appears this is the way it's going to be.

Thus far, the novels have been painful to read. "Middle-school level" is being kind. Ironically, the comics are not only better written, but better at filling in the gaps between the movies. The Vader series, in particular, is a must-read for any SW fan IMO. I love the story, artwork, and inclusion of many classic characters.

Weird, about the only classic character that makes regular appearances is Vader in the Vader comic. Though I am down for making Astra, 000, and BT-1 instant classic characters.

I know a lot of people won't like it but, apparently Disney is making SW a multi media affair, and that means books will fill in the gaps. If you're not a reader this sucks, but it appears that is the way it's going to be so, yes, if you want to know more going forward don't expect movies to tell you everything, you're going to have to pick up a book. BTW, even if you aren't an avid reader, most of the new novels are really short and written at a middle school level which, as a reader, bugs me but I see why they are doing it. You may not like it, and I'm not certain I'm sold on the idea just yet, but it's Disney's now and it appears this is the way it's going to be.

Thus far, the novels have been painful to read. "Middle-school level" is being kind. Ironically, the comics are not only better written, but better at filling in the gaps between the movies. The Vader series, in particular, is a must-read for any SW fan IMO. I love the story, artwork, and inclusion of many classic characters.

Weird, about the only classic character that makes regular appearances is Vader in the Vader comic. Though I am down for making Astra, 000, and BT-1 instant classic characters.

Revised opinion on the movie...

I can't fully hate a film that has resulted in the Twitter account...Emo Kylo Ren.

dear diary
hux and i are wearing black to commemorate the defeat at the battle of endor
we both always wear black but today it means more

you can't truly appreciate the imperial march until you hear it on vinyl

dear diary
mom and dad still don't believe that my name is kylo
dad laughs whenever i say it
nobody at school calls me kylo but hux

fine I will go to the dance dad
but I will not dance
I will wear a dark peacoat and stand in a corner with hux passing judgment on everyone

Yes, Emo Kylo Ren is great.

I really don't understand these remake claims. Was ROTJ a remake of ANH?

Let's just say there's a lot of elements from the OT comming over in TFA.

In no particular (new) order

• A giant spherical base of mass-destruction- again! (but ROTJ did that too so i'll let it slide)
• Escaping from said base only to return with a bunch of x-wings to blow it up.
• A small band of infiltrators exposes the weakness of said base, wich is then finished of by...
• ... a swarm of X-wings, some flying around inside the base to destroy it's weak spot.
• A confrontation between father and son after wich one falls to his (apparent) doom.
• The inside of the starbase bunker is very similar to that scne in cloud city for some reason.
• worlds: Not Tatooine, Not Yavin, (Starkiller base has snow but not enough for me to call it Not Hoth)
• Jedi mindtricks vs storm troopers
• The fan fave mysterious character in cool armor gets taken out without much of a fight.
• Small resistance cell vs evil galactic empire.
• Scary masked dude in black with a red 'saber abusing officers who bring him bad news.
• Who has conversations with his masters' holo projection.
• A character looking for a ship off world in a bar.
• Important information hidden away in a small astromech droid, pursued by storm troopers.
• protagonist from an outback desrt world, dressed in white learns (s)he can use the force and ends up with Anakin's light saber.

Starting to see a pattern here?

I could completely believe that R2-D2 is a Jedi. It could work.

There is a story in the now (thankfully) defunct EU where R5-D4 (the red unit that blows a motivator in ANH) is actually a Jedi, sees the future and decides to cripple himself to allow R2 to finish his mission.

Yup, I'm so glad that BS was all shoved in a backroom like an embarrassing and senile relative.

Edit: In all his glory, Skippy the Jedi droid.

Ok, I'm sorry but I am NOT willing to give up Tag and Bink just to get rid of Skippy.

Swear to god if I start seeing more people complain about it being too much like the OT I will become a much angrier, vitriolic individual.

You (royal you) complained about the PT being too unlike the OT for 15 years. Now, complaining the ST is too much like the OT?

Swear to god.

Another spherical space station super weapon? Again? A smal group of rebels against (I am asuming) a much larger foe.

Everything that is Kylo Ren! (thank god he didn't have astma.)

They could have changed it up a bit: maybe the New republic is in control of the galaxy, except for this small ex-imperialist armada of several Executors who are using hit and run terror tactics.

I was gonna complain about Kylo Ren dressing exactly as vader, but since he actually is a vader fanboy, that would make sense for his character to do.

I know a lot of people won't like it but, apparently Disney is making SW a multi media affair, and that means books will fill in the gaps. If you're not a reader this sucks, but it appears that is the way it's going to be so, yes, if you want to know more going forward don't expect movies to tell you everything, you're going to have to pick up a book. BTW, even if you aren't an avid reader, most of the new novels are really short and written at a middle school level which, as a reader, bugs me but I see why they are doing it. You may not like it, and I'm not certain I'm sold on the idea just yet, but it's Disney's now and it appears this is the way it's going to be.

Thus far, the novels have been painful to read. "Middle-school level" is being kind. Ironically, the comics are not only better written, but better at filling in the gaps between the movies. The Vader series, in particular, is a must-read for any SW fan IMO. I love the story, artwork, and inclusion of many classic characters.

Weird, about the only classic character that makes regular appearances is Vader in the Vader comic. Though I am down for making Astra, 000, and BT-1 instant classic characters.

Bossk, Luke...among others...

Revised opinion on the movie...

I can't fully hate a film that has resulted in the Twitter account...Emo Kylo Ren.

Is Darth Emo already taken?

I really don't understand these remake claims. Was ROTJ a remake of ANH?

Let's just say there's a lot of elements from the OT comming over in TFA.

In no particular (new) order

• A giant spherical base of mass-destruction- again! (but ROTJ did that too so i'll let it slide)
• Escaping from said base only to return with a bunch of x-wings to blow it up.
• A small band of infiltrators exposes the weakness of said base, wich is then finished of by...
• ... a swarm of X-wings, some flying around inside the base to destroy it's weak spot.
• A confrontation between father and son after wich one falls to his (apparent) doom.
• The inside of the starbase bunker is very similar to that scne in cloud city for some reason.
• worlds: Not Tatooine, Not Yavin, (Starkiller base has snow but not enough for me to call it Not Hoth)
• Jedi mindtricks vs storm troopers
• The fan fave mysterious character in cool armor gets taken out without much of a fight.
• Small resistance cell vs evil galactic empire.
• Scary masked dude in black with a red 'saber abusing officers who bring him bad news.
• Who has conversations with his masters' holo projection.
• A character looking for a ship off world in a bar.
• Important information hidden away in a small astromech droid, pursued by storm troopers.
• protagonist from an outback desrt world, dressed in white learns (s)he can use the force and ends up with Anakin's light saber.

Starting to see a pattern here?

you forgot that the opening sequence is nearly identical. other than the fact that ANH attacks a corvette and TFA attacks a random village in the desert, we have stormtoopers trooping, masked bad guy shows up, rebel operative places sensitive info into droid, said operative is captured. Not complaining, just saying.

I really don't understand these remake claims. Was ROTJ a remake of ANH?

Let's just say there's a lot of elements from the OT comming over in TFA.

In no particular (new) order

• A giant spherical base of mass-destruction- again! (but ROTJ did that too so i'll let it slide)
• Escaping from said base only to return with a bunch of x-wings to blow it up.
• A small band of infiltrators exposes the weakness of said base, wich is then finished of by...
• ... a swarm of X-wings, some flying around inside the base to destroy it's weak spot.
• A confrontation between father and son after wich one falls to his (apparent) doom.
• The inside of the starbase bunker is very similar to that scne in cloud city for some reason.
• worlds: Not Tatooine, Not Yavin, (Starkiller base has snow but not enough for me to call it Not Hoth)
• Jedi mindtricks vs storm troopers
• The fan fave mysterious character in cool armor gets taken out without much of a fight.
• Small resistance cell vs evil galactic empire.
• Scary masked dude in black with a red 'saber abusing officers who bring him bad news.
• Who has conversations with his masters' holo projection.
• A character looking for a ship off world in a bar.
• Important information hidden away in a small astromech droid, pursued by storm troopers.
• protagonist from an outback desrt world, dressed in white learns (s)he can use the force and ends up with Anakin's light saber.

Starting to see a pattern here?

you forgot that the opening sequence is nearly identical. other than the fact that ANH attacks a corvette and TFA attacks a random village in the desert, we have stormtoopers trooping, masked bad guy shows up, rebel operative places sensitive info into droid, said operative is captured. Not complaining, just saying.

I honestly think that the Starkiller base was really where this stems from - sure, there were a lot of familiar themes and tropes but had the second half really not felt so ANH-esque, I don't think people would be creating lists about them. There was enough new and fresh and different that, even though I was aware of the similarity in the first scene with ANH, it really didn't feel painful until I saw the Death Star Mk III.

There's a significant difference between paying homage and being lazy or playing to too many in-jokes and I think that the lined got blurred a bit in TFA.

As you say, not complaining, just saying.

Swear to god if I start seeing more people complain about it being too much like the OT I will become a much angrier, vitriolic individual.

You (royal you) complained about the PT being too unlike the OT for 15 years. Now, complaining the ST is too much like the OT?

Swear to god.

Another spherical space station super weapon? Again? A smal group of rebels against (I am asuming) a much larger foe.

Everything that is Kylo Ren! (thank god he didn't have astma.)

They could have changed it up a bit: maybe the New republic is in control of the galaxy, except for this small ex-imperialist armada of several Executors who are using hit and run terror tactics.

I was gonna complain about Kylo Ren dressing exactly as vader, but since he actually is a vader fanboy, that would make sense for his character to do.

Actually, the way I understand it the New Republic does control most of the galaxy. The First Order is the aggressive underdog. They are frustrated by the Resistance, given that they constantly interfere with the First Order while the New Republic can disavow knowledge or responsibility for the Resistance's actions. I really wish they had done a better job setting the overall galactic scene in the movie itself. The idea of the FO and Resistance refusing to put down arms while the rest of the galaxy is trying to move on is an interesting setting for the conflict. Of course, the movie is really about good vs evil and how the force is central to that conflict, so I suppose the fear of being bogged down or distracted by the politics or background is understandable.

It's about my only complaint about the film that the only thing Snoke (terrible name) can be is an evil Yoda.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, and I'm certain someone must have already discussed this theory in this thread, but contrary to your statement I think the only thing Supreme Leader Snoke the Wise (he's so wise!) can be is Darth Plagueis the Wise who mastered life and death through the force, fooled Palpatine into thinking he killed him so that he could get around the rule of two (really, Palpatine, you think such a powerful Sith would just let you kill him in his sleep?), created Anakin from the Force, and has been quietly observing events from the sideline until, of course, his Force project Anakin turned back to the lightside and died. Now Snoke/Plagueis is using Anakin's grandson to take Luke out of the picture and resume his project to some end goal we don't know about yet.

Quite different from an "evil Yoda" if you ask me, and a genius way to tie all three trilogies together. (please don't ruin this, Disney...)

Why should they reference a reviled set of films?

Other than a passing mention to a gungan genocide we all want.

From what we see in ep7 they are not remotely referencing the prequels when every other scene refers to something from the original trilogy.

From a plot point of view there are essentially 3 options.

A/evil dude is actually that big. That's dumb and would not make for a good final duel.

B/evil dude is just roughly human sized. In which case, why go to the trouble (expensive cgi wise) to create a huge sized villain. That massive hologram only makes sense if...

C/evil dude is small. That makes for a more shocking reveal.

Plus it refers and counterbalances the original trilogies Yoda figure as the good guy.

I'm not saying evil dude is literally of yodas species, but it only really makes sense for him to be small.

Why should they reference a reviled set of films?

I'm tired of the constant claim that there is some kind of inclusive 'we' that believes the prequels are crap. 'We' do not think the prequels suck. Some do, some don't.

Why should they reference a reviled set of films?

Because they're not that reviled. I see a lot of internet hype and blogs and media pretending that there is some kind consensus among Star Wars fans. But there are quite a few who like the prequels, like me.

I'm tired of the constant claim that there is some kind of inclusive 'we' that believes the prequels are crap. 'We' do not think the prequels suck. Some do, some don't.

No they really are.

Even non fans know the prequels are bad because they don't just fail as star wars films they fail as movies.

They are dull with too much bad cgi and unlikable characters.

Bad movies made by a bad director, there's a reason no studio wanted to make redtails and it wasn't racism as old Lucas claimed.

Too bad Snoke didn't look more like the Lovecraftian rathtars. Then being big and a hologram might make sense. And I might even believe he could swallow souls of other unspeakable evils. But then if your big bad is a giant monster then Star Wars turns into Krull and no one wants that.

No they really are.

As it stand now, the hype has become as stale as the joke that Star Wars fans don't have girlfriends. That may have been funny and even poignant in 1979, but both myths are now as worn out as they can be.

Why should they reference a reviled set of films?

Because they're not that reviled. I see a lot of internet hype and blogs and media pretending that there is some kind consensus among Star Wars fans. But there are quite a few who like the prequels, like me.

I'm tired of the constant claim that there is some kind of inclusive 'we' that believes the prequels are crap. 'We' do not think the prequels suck. Some do, some don't.

No they really are.

Even non fans know the prequels are bad because they don't just fail as star wars films they fail as movies.

They are dull with too much bad cgi and unlikable characters.

Bad movies made by a bad director, there's a reason no studio wanted to make redtails and it wasn't racism as old Lucas claimed.

There's nothing wrong with George's directing abilities... as long as you have a great editor, and script doctor, and actors who insist on changing lines so that they sound like actual dialogue, and most importantly no yes-men. Other than that he is a great director.

No they really are.

Speak for yourself, but you're just presenting your emotions about films from more than a decade ago as facts. I like them as I did from the beginning and still think they're pretty good - AotC and RotS are in my top 3 Star Wars flms, and Revenge had pretty good reviews at the time - the best of the series, in fact - when reviewers didn't have the current frame.

As it stand now, the hype has become as stale as the joke that Star Wars fans don't have girlfriends. That may have been funny and even poignant in 1979, but both myths are now as worn out as they can be.

Girlfriend?! My wife would kill me!