Rhymer Firesprays are very good and very expensive. If left unchecked they will cause mass destruction. My issue with them was that if I faced any form of enemy squadron the amount of use i got out of them cut drastically as I wasn't bombing with them.

I still perfer to run 5x TIE Ints, Howlrunner, Dengar, Rhymer. I have flight controllers for 6 dice TIEs int on the run in with howlrunner, and then I have dengar for counter 4 (howlrunner) and rhymer lets all those blue dice (50% chance to damage i think) still threaten enemy ships. I typically out squadron my opponent and by turn 3 or 4 I am harassing lowering shields for my ISDs. thats also 8 squadrons which gives me 6 deployment actions so against the clone raiders with demolisher, I can always drop my interceptor ISD1 to counter demolisher. Its been very strong

Why do firesprays need Rhymer? Just move closer surely?

Why do firesprays need Rhymer? Just move closer surely?

They have Rogue, but they're Slower than Bombers. So they often need Rhymer to be able to shoot from where they are while fighters are trying to tie them down.

It is the tricky conundrum of the Rhymer/Fire ball... 1 FireSpray vs. 2 Bombers... Both have their advantages and disadvantages - the Firesprays have ease of control and individual hull points (good vs ships), but lower on speed, direct damage potential and collective hull points (good vs Squadrons).

That, and Rhymer Himself is a **** good bomber for his points, as he still has the ability to throw that long range black himself, decent survivability with the double brace and 5 hull, and he is still cheaper than a firespray

Was at a Store Champs at the weekend. Only got 7 players, but 3 of the top 4 were Firespray-heavy Imps (and 2nd-4th place were decided on tiebreakers since we all ended on the same points). None of us used a "true" Fireball, instead just spamming out the Firesprays. From memory first place had 4 of them, second place had 5, 4th had 5 + Rhymer.

Part of that success might just be that there weren't many squads in any of the other lists. If left unopposed the Firesprays could just flit around and hand out damage easily.

This is a good example of when it is viable. Firesprays are a terrible, devastating menace--if there are no other squadrons on the board. They're horribly points-inefficient against squadrons, though: most of what you're paying for on them is Rogue, which is great until you're engaged, at which point it becomes useless. Once engaged, they want squadron commands just as much as any other squadron, to get the first shots.

For whatever reason, people look at those three blues and think it's a competent anti-squadron ship, without considering that you're paying 6 points apiece for them. For comparison, the Y-wing's infamously awful 2 anti-squadron dice are 5 points each. In fact, they're directly comparable to the TIE bomber in anti-squadron point for point: 2*9-pt TIEs average 1.5 anti-squadron damage, which is the same average as 1*18-pt Firespray.

Was at a Store Champs at the weekend. Only got 7 players, but 3 of the top 4 were Firespray-heavy Imps (and 2nd-4th place were decided on tiebreakers since we all ended on the same points). None of us used a "true" Fireball, instead just spamming out the Firesprays. From memory first place had 4 of them, second place had 5, 4th had 5 + Rhymer.

Part of that success might just be that there weren't many squads in any of the other lists. If left unopposed the Firesprays could just flit around and hand out damage easily.

This is a good example of when it is viable. Firesprays are a terrible, devastating menace--if there are no other squadrons on the board. They're horribly points-inefficient against squadrons, though: most of what you're paying for on them is Rogue, which is great until you're engaged, at which point it becomes useless. Once engaged, they want squadron commands just as much as any other squadron, to get the first shots.

For whatever reason, people look at those three blues and think it's a competent anti-squadron ship, without considering that you're paying 6 points apiece for them. For comparison, the Y-wing's infamously awful 2 anti-squadron dice are 5 points each. In fact, they're directly comparable to the TIE bomber in anti-squadron point for point: 2*9-pt TIEs average 1.5 anti-squadron damage, which is the same average as 1*18-pt Firespray.

This is a solid analysis right here. Firesprays are not stand alone antisquadron. Thats not why you bring them, if you want rogue antisquadron, bring Aggressors. What firesprays CAN do is competantly support your antisquadron elements for a turn if it allows you to tip the scale in the squadron war. But they should not be relied upon to win that war, as unless they are shooting at ships they are horribly inefficient.

Frankly, if you are bringing a ball, you just have to adjust to the fact the meta has adjusted to you.

Its a simple matter of determining when contact happens.

A big lesson I re-learned recently is that my rhymerball list wants to go second. It also wants to go slow.

If you are putting north of 100 points into something it needs to pull weight and if a lot of what its doing might need to be informed by what your opponent is doing you want to go second.

I've been experimenting with using an instigator raider (with mixed results) and flight controllers (also with mixed results). If you can pull it off the instigator can do tremendous work holding down enemy squads for a turn while you GTFO with the help of Dengar, and sometimes it even survives! Flight controller activations can suddenly make those 3 blue dice firesprays 4 blue dice firesprays, and with expanded hangars and a squad token I have occasionally managed to activate almost all my fighters with flight controllers and alpha strike key enemy squads. At 6 points this means 1 point per blue die which if leveraged once or twice in a match has a decent ROI.

Also the days of just throwing a rhymerball out into a convenient spot and spitting hurt at ships while you laugh is basically over (unless you run into that hapless Ackbar minmax list in which case going second means you get an advantageous objective and you can control the board, I have yet to lose against an ackbar list with my medium rhymerball list). I find that if you move slow and pick your engagement and keep your rhymerball close to the carrier they act as tremendous, flexible, extra firepower with the added benefit of AS arcs when support is needed (and you bet your balls I will AS over shooting at ships if it stands a good chance of liberating firesprays). So yeah, people can go ahead and send Soontir and Howl and ties and whatever but its going to cost you.

I haven't quite found the balance I like yet and there is no formula, but in the early turns keeping my ball tight with carriers and keeping that raider in ozzel pounce range has made many an opponent at least think really hard before sending in their squads, and someday, I might even get good enough that I can make this all work consistently! (but probably not, cause I want to try different lists)

This is a solid analysis right here. Firesprays are not stand alone antisquadron. Thats not why you bring them, if you want rogue antisquadron, bring Aggressors. What firesprays CAN do is competantly support your antisquadron elements for a turn if it allows you to tip the scale in the squadron war. But they should not be relied upon to win that war, as unless they are shooting at ships they are horribly inefficient.

I gotta say, when i first saw your WC list, I thought I didn't like your ASish version of the rhymerball. That feeling immediately changed after playing Doobleg, who proceeded to alpha strike my fireball with a light fighter build based on howlrunner and interceptors, with some help from my poor choice of objectives (fleet ambush). Still, while I see the point in the analysis Ardaedhel made (fireball is king in a no squadron environment, and is inefficient in a squadron heavy environment), I feel that sinking all those points in some situational squadrons is limiting the ship choice to a few combinations, making you predictable and, what's even worse, not nearly in line with say a rebel B wing spam list.

Personally, I like taking a large Rhymerball with a heavy Advanced escort, backed by Ruthless Strategists. I take the Bombers over Firesprays for several reasons - the Bombers have more hull for the same price, their anti-squadron attack averages about the same damage, they give you a better deployment advantage, and they're faster. Yes, you do need more squadron commands to move them around effectively, but the list I'm running this setup with has three VSDs with Tarkin, so that's an effective squadron command value of 12.

Where a Fireball would be more effective is paired with an Expanded Hangars Raider. Run Rhymer, two Firesprays and maybe an Advanced or Jumpmaster/Dengar with a Raider that has Ruthless Strategists and Expanded Hangars. They take off around the flank with the Raider pushing Rhymer and the escort/intel around, and the Firesprays moving around on their own. RS helps to burn down anything sent to intercept. Hell, you can even have another blob of bombers or fighters in tight with the rest of your fleet, so your opponent has to either split their fighter escort, or only intercept one of your groups.

This is a solid analysis right here. Firesprays are not stand alone antisquadron. Thats not why you bring them, if you want rogue antisquadron, bring Aggressors. What firesprays CAN do is competantly support your antisquadron elements for a turn if it allows you to tip the scale in the squadron war. But they should not be relied upon to win that war, as unless they are shooting at ships they are horribly inefficient.

I gotta say, when i first saw your WC list, I thought I didn't like your ASish version of the rhymerball. That feeling immediately changed after playing Doobleg, who proceeded to alpha strike my fireball with a light fighter build based on howlrunner and interceptors, with some help from my poor choice of objectives (fleet ambush). Still, while I see the point in the analysis Ardaedhel made (fireball is king in a no squadron environment, and is inefficient in a squadron heavy environment), I feel that sinking all those points in some situational squadrons is limiting the ship choice to a few combinations, making you predictable and, what's even worse, not nearly in line with say a rebel B wing spam list.

But I digress. TL;DR, The point is that I believe its better to bring a lighter bomber component that can be brought to bear consistently throughout the game than a heavier one that maybe takes a first strike and gets wiped out or nullified early.

I have yet to lose against an ackbar list with my medium rhymerball list).

I have a Ackbar B Wing Spam list you need to meet

I always think with bomber spam lists, you need as few pure anti squadron fighters as you can get away with. When I take Tie Bombers, I have Soontir, Darth, TA and a Jumpmaster. Anymore and I feel I am commiting too much to anti fighter rather than maxing the bombers. With that set up I can run with 6 Bombers, Rhymer and of course Vadar as pretty much a bomber. Flight Controllers so that my anti fighter four can get the jump and do a lot of burst damage straight up.

Mad disagrees, with the post he just made I think. I just feel if I am going to go bombing, then i better go BOMBINGGGGGGGG. This might be why I should stick with Rebels and the relatively capable B Wings.

I have yet to lose against an ackbar list with my medium rhymerball list).

I have a Ackbar B Wing Spam list you need to meet

I always think with bomber spam lists, you need as few pure anti squadron fighters as you can get away with. When I take Tie Bombers, I have Soontir, Darth, TA and a Jumpmaster. Anymore and I feel I am commiting too much to anti fighter rather than maxing the bombers. With that set up I can run with 6 Bombers, Rhymer and of course Vadar as pretty much a bomber. Flight Controllers so that my anti fighter four can get the jump and do a lot of burst damage straight up.

Mad disagrees, with the post he just made I think. I just feel if I am going to go bombing, then i better go BOMBINGGGGGGGG. This might be why I should stick with Rebels and the relatively capable B Wings.

If you spam B-wings you don't actually have an Ackbar max list. If you want to be tedious I can go back up and edit in the word "max"....

This might be why I should stick with Rebels and the relatively capable B Wings.

Which is another really interesting Corollary...

B-Wings have the same Anti-Squadron Dice as a Firespray...

The Firespray pays a Bomber Black->Blue Downgrade and 4 points, to Gain +1 Speed, +1 Hull, and Rogue...

So it seemson the face of it, to be relatively similar in most capabilities....

Yet a lot of people (Me included) seem to espouse the B-Wing as "better"...

So maybe it is just that 4pt Difference that makes the difference...

This might be why I should stick with Rebels and the relatively capable B Wings.

Which is another really interesting Corollary...

B-Wings have the same Anti-Squadron Dice as a Firespray...

The Firespray pays a Bomber Black->Blue Downgrade and 4 points, to Gain +1 Speed, +1 Hull, and Rogue...

So it seemson the face of it, to be relatively similar in most capabilities....

Yet a lot of people (Me included) seem to espouse the B-Wing as "better"...

So maybe it is just that 4pt Difference that makes the difference...

I can't even remember the number of times "rogue" has meant the difference between a dead enemy ship vs a live one.

For some reason, it typically seems to be MC30s that get hurt by this in my games. They zoom in and do their heavy shots and on the way out they tend to have a rhymer turret chasing them down and killing them for like 80 points (virtually paying off the medium rhymerball with just that kill)

Yet a lot of people (Me included) seem to espouse the B-Wing as "better"...

So maybe it is just that 4pt Difference that makes the difference...

4 pts being 29% of the B's total cost!

I have yet to lose against an ackbar list with my medium rhymerball list).

I have a Ackbar B Wing Spam list you need to meet

I always think with bomber spam lists, you need as few pure anti squadron fighters as you can get away with. When I take Tie Bombers, I have Soontir, Darth, TA and a Jumpmaster. Anymore and I feel I am commiting too much to anti fighter rather than maxing the bombers. With that set up I can run with 6 Bombers, Rhymer and of course Vadar as pretty much a bomber. Flight Controllers so that my anti fighter four can get the jump and do a lot of burst damage straight up.

Mad disagrees, with the post he just made I think. I just feel if I am going to go bombing, then i better go BOMBINGGGGGGGG. This might be why I should stick with Rebels and the relatively capable B Wings.

B-Wings real drawback is getting them into position. But once you have that down, they are relatively effective anti squadron fighters. Also, since they tend to run with Independence, getting caught up for a turn isn't actually a huge deal. I have no problem with B-Wing spam depending on the composition of the rest of your fleet. I mean, if you are throwing like, 8 bwings with no intel, no escort, and no indy I would wonder on which planet you think you'll be getting to use those.

My thoughts above really go more to Inperial list making, where the fighters trend towards more specialized roles. A lot of rebel fighters can pull double duty without really hurting you efficiency wise.

This might be why I should stick with Rebels and the relatively capable B Wings.

Which is another really interesting Corollary...

B-Wings have the same Anti-Squadron Dice as a Firespray...

The Firespray pays a Bomber Black->Blue Downgrade and 4 points, to Gain +1 Speed, +1 Hull, and Rogue...

So it seemson the face of it, to be relatively similar in most capabilities....

Yet a lot of people (Me included) seem to espouse the B-Wing as "better"...

So maybe it is just that 4pt Difference that makes the difference...

Despite the similarities, they really are completely different squadrons. The Firespray works to its full potential when it's operating independently of a carrier. You're paying points for rogue, so why the hell would you not use it? B-Wings are the exact opposite. Without a carrier, they're worthless. Heck, I consider them to be 16 points, because I always bring 4 and always support them with Independence (which is effectively 2 points per B-Wing). It doesn't help that head-to-head, they're almost always going to beat the Firespray. Commanded fighters have a significant advantage in head-to-head match-ups against Rogues. The alpha strike matters. The Firespray either has to effectively waste the points it spends on Rogue to get the alpha strike, or it has to take the alpha strike to the face. That's a lose-lose situation.

B-Wings also benefit from synergy more than the Firesprays. I know everyone thinks Imperials have all the squadron synergy. New flash: they don't. Firespray do benefit from Rhymer, but that's where their synergy ends. Rebel squadron synergy comes from capital ships, not fellow squadrons. Yavaris and Independence are two of the most insane squadron buffs in the game, and they build off of each other exponentially. Independence gets B-Wings out into firing range by turn two. Yavaris then takes the most lethal bomber in the game and makes it shoot twice. Rhymer may have range, but a single properly placed B-Wing does the damage of 4 TIE bombers or 2 Firesprays. That's why B-Wings look so good. It has little to do with comparing Firesprays and B-Wings directly. It has everything to do with Independence and Yavaris.

This might be why I should stick with Rebels and the relatively capable B Wings.

Which is another really interesting Corollary...

B-Wings have the same Anti-Squadron Dice as a Firespray...

The Firespray pays a Bomber Black->Blue Downgrade and 4 points, to Gain +1 Speed, +1 Hull, and Rogue...

So it seemson the face of it, to be relatively similar in most capabilities....

Yet a lot of people (Me included) seem to espouse the B-Wing as "better"...

So maybe it is just that 4pt Difference that makes the difference...

I can't even remember the number of times "rogue" has meant the difference between a dead enemy ship vs a live one.

For some reason, it typically seems to be MC30s that get hurt by this in my games. They zoom in and do their heavy shots and on the way out they tend to have a rhymer turret chasing them down and killing them for like 80 points (virtually paying off the medium rhymerball with just that kill)

And as Truth states above, Yavaris. Such a monster.

This might be why I should stick with Rebels and the relatively capable B Wings.

Which is another really interesting Corollary...

B-Wings have the same Anti-Squadron Dice as a Firespray...

The Firespray pays a Bomber Black->Blue Downgrade and 4 points, to Gain +1 Speed, +1 Hull, and Rogue...

So it seemson the face of it, to be relatively similar in most capabilities....

Yet a lot of people (Me included) seem to espouse the B-Wing as "better"...

So maybe it is just that 4pt Difference that makes the difference...

Despite the similarities, they really are completely different squadrons. The Firespray works to its full potential when it's operating independently of a carrier. You're paying points for rogue, so why the hell would you not use it? B-Wings are the exact opposite. Without a carrier, they're worthless. Heck, I consider them to be 16 points, because I always bring 4 and always support them with Independence (which is effectively 2 points per B-Wing). It doesn't help that head-to-head, they're almost always going to beat the Firespray. Commanded fighters have a significant advantage in head-to-head match-ups against Rogues. The alpha strike matters. The Firespray either has to effectively waste the points it spends on Rogue to get the alpha strike, or it has to take the alpha strike to the face. That's a lose-lose situation.

B-Wings also benefit from synergy more than the Firesprays. I know everyone thinks Imperials have all the squadron synergy. New flash: they don't. Firespray do benefit from Rhymer, but that's where their synergy ends. Rebel squadron synergy comes from capital ships, not fellow squadrons. Yavaris and Independence are two of the most insane squadron buffs in the game, and they build off of each other exponentially. Independence gets B-Wings out into firing range by turn two. Yavaris then takes the most lethal bomber in the game and makes it shoot twice. Rhymer may have range, but a single properly placed B-Wing does the damage of 4 TIE bombers or 2 Firesprays. That's why B-Wings look so good. It has little to do with comparing Firesprays and B-Wings directly. It has everything to do with Independence and Yavaris.

too bad independence is an MC80 title, and MC80's suck.

too bad independence is an MC80 title, and MC80's suck.

If you're going to make a statement like that, I would like to see some Science behind it, rather than just Anecdotal evidence...

too bad independence is an MC80 title, and MC80's suck.

I have an Ackbar MC80 B Wing Spam list that you really dont want to face...

too bad independence is an MC80 title, and MC80's suck.

If you're going to make a statement like that, I would like to see some Science behind it, rather than just Anecdotal evidence...

Ok, let me rephrase: Other than the neat titles, MC80s are rather point inefficient and require purpose-built fleets and/or min-maxing to work to an acceptable level.

Yeah, it's anecdotal, but I see it on the table in competitive play less and less and less.

Even my buddy who plays rebel and was running an MC80, after we ran the numbers and considered the factors we both agreed that 2 whales accomplished the same thing he wanted to accomplish in a comprehensively more point-efficient way.

Sure it has a place, but it is evolving to be an increasingly niche place. So yes, sorry "sucks" was a bit of hyperbole.

too bad independence is an MC80 title, and MC80's suck.

If you're going to make a statement like that, I would like to see some Science behind it, rather than just Anecdotal evidence...

Ok, let me rephrase: Other than the neat titles, MC80s are rather point inefficient and require purpose-built fleets and/or min-maxing to work to an acceptable level.

Yeah, it's anecdotal, but I see it on the table in competitive play less and less and less.

Even my buddy who plays rebel and was running an MC80, after we ran the numbers and considered the factors we both agreed that 2 whales accomplished the same thing he wanted to accomplish in a comprehensively more point-efficient way.

Sure it has a place, but it is evolving to be an increasingly niche place. So yes, sorry "sucks" was a bit of hyperbole.

The problem with Anecdotal is exactly as you said above - Its the truth from what you see...

Because I'll counter it with a statement that all but two of the 6+ Rebel Lists at the Sentry Box Store championships contained an MC80...

The lists that didn't had AFMK-II x 3, and the other was Corvette Spam...

Its just disappointing people are making such harsh decisions and deriding something so harshly... I mean, even if we take the above as true - we can continue analogies - they're really no Different than Nebulon-Bs on their own regard, then?

You can ignore me now, I'm just feeling very jaded after today on teh forums in general

So your argument is that the most expensive rebel ship is poor if you are not building your fleet around it? Well why on earth were you considering spending all those points if it wasnt to be the fleet centrepiece? Were not talking cheap and cheerful corvettes here, the MC80 IS your fleet, not PART of your fleet.

So your argument is that the most expensive rebel ship is poor if you are not building your fleet around it? Well why on earth were you considering spending all those points if it wasnt to be the fleet centrepiece? Were not talking cheap and cheerful corvettes here, the MC80 IS your fleet, not PART of your fleet.

Take the ISD as a counterpoint. A naked ISD is pretty much worth it's points, its basic worth is unambiguous, you can customize from there. A naked MC80 Can't really make the same claim.

And Dras, the last tourney I went to had 16 players and I can't honestly remember a single MC80. Not one. I think the list that won had 1 whale and 3 corvettes and a bunch of squadrons...

And you are smart enough to do the math yourself on points per squadron activation, points per die etc. I think you will find that whales can almost match PPD and beat them handily in PPSA, when maxing ackbar 2 whales gives you 4 extra dice but 1 MC80 gives you 2, significantly shifting the PPD calculation. Points per hull point, points per shield point etc etc. then add in activation advantage, flexibility etc etc. all of a sudden, scientifically, the only leg up an MC80 has is the titles, which is fine, but Niche.

We will have to agree to disagree

We will have to agree to disagree

Interestingly, I'm not completely disagreeing...

I'm just interested in the why. If someone makes a Mic-Drop, Slam-Fist, on the point statement of fact, I like seeing it backed up.

Had you brought up the PPD and PPSA ratings at the start, I probably wouldn't have said anything at all

Because at least those things - those things can be countered in the future with upgrade potentials...