As someone who runs a Fireball [Rhymer/Dengar/4xSpray] the thing I fear most is numbers. The greatest advantage I have gotten out of the 'ball is freedom of location, which lets me use the objectives to my benefit. I don't worry about losing them to damage, or losing Rhymer, or Dengar even, since they will probably trade enough damage to earn those points back against the aggressors. I worry about a chain of cheap fighters locking them in place long enough to make that tradeoff not worth it.

So far I have lucked out and only faced 4-6 fighters against it. At that, Dengar is immediately the target, then Rhymer. The predictability lets me counter-maneuver your own screen, since I know who your targets will be and I can potentially lag the Firesprays back just enough to Mop up instead of engage First. If the Fighters came in sufficient waves, that wouldn't be viable.

Deployment will make a large difference in my level of worry as well. I suppose I could try to escort the Ball with the Raiders, which may still let them serve as skirmishers, but then I lose using one as a trailer.

I suppose my favorite benefit of the Fireball is flexibility, and I use Fireball because even without Rhymer 4x Sprays is nothing to sneeze at. I am using him to support someone else that almost doesn't need it. I feel like Rhymer/Dengar is sort of an Imperial Fighter Giftbasket that every Admiral should try to fit on their list if possible.

I agree with this, and partially why the Fireball is so powerful is its flexibility. If your opponent brings a token screen, you can pretty much just ignore the incoming damage. If your opponent brings a medium screen (like 5-6 fighters), you have to worry about it a little, but not enough to change your strategy. Only when your opponent has a equal number in force, do you need to alter your strategy from killing ships to tackling the new threat. In summary, the damage and threat of the Fireball changes from insane, to high, to medium, because even with a dedicated fighting force, Dengar and the boys have enough tools to deal with most decent squadrons. Firesprays are basically autonomous Imperial B-Wings at that point, and with Dengar giving a Counter 1 bubble, they behave like 4-attack dice fighters.

I've tried Tycho + 3 A-Wings, and I think I'm going to up that number to 1+4 for my next go. I'm going to take it slow, as taking any additional fighters will essentially force the entire list and playstyle to change.

Either way, without the generic durability of Tycho, Rebel players will need to look at 6 fighters and above to stay competitive these days.

Then build a list that is a punishment to the Fireball builds and watch them get taken less.

Sure, but building a list that is all-comers, can comfortably take the Fireball on a walk through town, and staying within my playstyle is a little more difficult. I'm sure this is the case for everyone.

Not quite everyone...I have been running squadron heavy lists since the beginning, and am contemplating an all comers list along the lines of 6 Y's, 4 X's, and 2 A's, supported by dual Fighter controllers. It's has enough firepower, numbers, durability, and mobility to take down a Fireball, and yet with 10 bombers can comfortably handle any other list thrown at it. With the possible exception of 133 points of Howl & Interceptors.

To be clear, this is not a custom list to handle fireballs per Se, but one of my possible lists in the new squadron heavy environment. I regularly ran 100 points of fighters in wave one and bumping up to 133 isn't that much of a change, though I agree that Intel, Grit, and Rogue are important modifiers. Still, I look forward to the challenge.

Why not just take so many bombers that the firesprays are forced into playing interceptor?

6 X wings and 4 Y-wings is possible with the starter and 2 rebel squadron packs, and within the restrictions of the squadron allowance.

---------------------------

With Imperials, having a VSD with enhanced comms, flight controllers and 3x YV-666 is also a possible cure. Yes, they are slow, but having heavy is no disadvantage against Intel and that is 6 black and 8 blue anti-squadron dice.

Lets see anything survive that, and even if they do, there is no way that the YV-666s are going to finish second on points given their cheapness.

Also, the fireball will be so scared of the mosh pit of freighters trying to chew them down that it will keep them out of optimal position for far fewer points at worst, and financially it is very easy to pick up 3 YV-666's as everyone thinks they are crap.

Ok, my thoughts now I have played some wave 2.

- Firesprays are awesome as is. With rogue they don't need Rhymer. I had a great time with two operating independently hammering any exposed hull ones that got near them. They killed a couple of ships directly and sealed the doom of two MC80s just by burning up shields and redirects because they didn't want to take the crits.

- Dengar and Vader can't cover the entire ball. Especially with speed 4 fighters, you should be able to get in position to snipe any firesprays at the edges of coverage. Sure you will take +1 counter, but the firesprays are very expensive per hit point and everyone you kill will degrade the fireballs effectiveness a lot.

- Vader, the advanced and Dengar is a pretty expensive overhead to make the whole fireball work. I'd almost suggest using combined arms (firesprays, tiefighters and raiders/glad IIs) to suppress enemy fighters quickly and provide more flexibility.

I just don't buy into any squadron strategy that involves the word 'ball' in it. Yes the synergys are nice but you make yourself predictable, inflexible, and expose yourself to area of effect weaponry such as cap ship AS fire.

Also if you play the meta people know how to beat you. Don't play the meta, play your own game and make it work. There are far more 'soft' aspects at play in games like this than many people acknowledge. Having the tools to outthink, and outmanoeuvre your opponent is often more effective than being able to simply outfight them.

Good discussion though

So what is the best way to beat

Rhymer 16, Vader 21, Advanced 12, Degnar 20, 3 fire sprays 48. : 117 points

Or that plus 3 intercepts

150

I just don't buy into any squadron strategy that involves the word 'ball' in it. Yes the synergys are nice but you make yourself predictable, inflexible, and expose yourself to area of effect weaponry such as cap ship AS fire.

Also if you play the meta people know how to beat you. Don't play the meta, play your own game and make it work. There are far more 'soft' aspects at play in games like this than many people acknowledge. Having the tools to outthink, and outmanoeuvre your opponent is often more effective than being able to simply outfight them.

Good discussion though

I've read between the lines, and your prognosis suggests a visit to the doctor.

Fireball: Threat Or Menace?

In my opinion, what's being overlooked here is that the only thing that matters in this fight is where Vader is. He's the only Escort, and by definition he can't cover everything. Squadrons don't obstruct attacks, so as long as you can get your fighters to the opposite side of him, you can tear down anything freely. Example (V=Vader, R=Rhymer, Y=Your squadron)

VR Y

In this crude mockup, your fighter is more than Distance 1 away from Vader, but still within that of Rhymer, and can tear Rhymer apart at will. Yes, there's all sorts of other variables that will affect this situation: Vader could move to be in range, the Imp player could stack ships on the other side, etc. But it all still comes down to where Vader is, without him the rest of the Fireball is able to be picked apart.

To take a Fireball down, my list would look something like:

Flight Controllers on a ship

Jan Ors

3x X-Wings

Season to taste with Han Solo, Tycho

X-Wings are the best dogfighter the Rebels have, and have enough speed to get into position with the Moldy Crow handing out Braces and using Intel to keep them mobile to get where Vader isn't. The Falcon fits in to use Han's Shoot First to move before Vader even has a chance to reposition and get some real damage in, or use Tycho who just doesn't care to either swing around him or engage Vader himself to lock down the Lord of the Sith. Even if the Firesprays are moved to try to block tackling Rhymer, they don't have any defense tokens and should fall in short order to 5 blue dice X-Wings. Plus, any time that any of the ball isn't firing on my ships is a minor win for me. With Solo in the list, that's 84 points right there (60 if you include the Flight Controllers) to tie up, delay, or wipe out 111 points.

The counter for this is to drop Vader in favor of two Advanced to create overlapping spheres of Escort, which I think is superior anyway. If I was going to rely on Escort to keep something running, two is the minimum of that type of fighter I would be running. It adds 3 points, but it'll keep your Fireball running a lot longer.

So what is the best way to beat

Rhymer 16, Vader 21, Advanced 12, Degnar 20, 3 fire sprays 48. : 117 points

Or that plus 3 intercepts

150

I don't have much advice for that first one, but if your opponent is bringing 150 points of fighters to a 400 point game you can just have him DQ'd for bringing an illegal list.

10-0 baby!

So what is the best way to beat

Rhymer 16, Vader 21, Advanced 12, Degnar 20, 3 fire sprays 48. : 117 points

Or that plus 3 intercepts

150

I don't have much advice for that first one, but if your opponent is bringing 150 points of fighters to a 400 point game you can just have him DQ'd for bringing an illegal list.

10-0 baby!

Have him Dairy Queened?

I...I don't see how that's a penalty at all.

(yes I know what you mean, just laugh and nod along and nobody gets hurt)

So what is the best way to beat

Rhymer 16, Vader 21, Advanced 12, Degnar 20, 3 fire sprays 48. : 117 points

Or that plus 3 intercepts

150

I don't have much advice for that first one, but if your opponent is bringing 150 points of fighters to a 400 point game you can just have him DQ'd for bringing an illegal list.

10-0 baby!

Sometimes we play 500 points

One counter to any squadron heavy build is to simply go anti-ship and destroy all your opponents ships. This is obviously not as easy with Rhymer, and since the inclusion of the Raider, your opponent can easily run a 4 ship list (or even more) and keep a raider or 2 flying far away.

A-Wings can mess with this list. If manage to interrupt your movement, or position themselves just outside of range1 of Dengar. Another really nasty counter here is gonna be Mauler Mithel, activated by Chiraneau. He can rain down massive damage. Combine that with a Victory running Warlord+H9 and you just might be able to mow down any squadrons.

One counter to any squadron heavy build is to simply go anti-ship and destroy all your opponents ships. This is obviously not as easy with Rhymer, and since the inclusion of the Raider, your opponent can easily run a 4 ship list (or even more) and keep a raider or 2 flying far away.

A-Wings can mess with this list. If manage to interrupt your movement, or position themselves just outside of range1 of Dengar. Another really nasty counter here is gonna be Mauler Mithel, activated by Chiraneau. He can rain down massive damage. Combine that with a Victory running Warlord+H9 and you just might be able to mow down any squadrons.

As much as I like A-wings, I worry about their utility against squadrons with a protected Intel squad. In Wave I, being engaged by an A-wing either meant attacking it (and suffering Counter 2), or ignoring it (Bombers *cough* bombers...) and not moving/attacking/doing anything useful. With Intel, an enemy squadron group may have to suffer a round of A-wing fire (1.5 damage per A-wing, on average rolls), but can then move on as long as it has enough Escorts to keep the A's from destroying the Intel squad, and is free to bomb whatever it pleases.

I feel like it's less of an issue against squad groups built around large numbers of Firesprays, if only because the Firespray is so expensive that it limits the total number of squadrons you will need to deal with (Dengar + Vader + four Firesprays = 113 points already). 6-8 A-wings (66-88 points invested) bolstered by squadron commands, should be able to whittle down Vader, then Dengar, if that's their exclusive focus for a round (thanks to their impressive strike range). Once Intel is gone, then the Firesprays become locked in combat, where the A-wing's Counter becomes something they will need to deal with.

Against larger swarms, though--especially if there's a fair number of Escorts around the enemy's Intel squad--I feel like A's will have a tougher time. 134 points can buy you Dengar, four Advanced, two Bombers, and six generic TIEs (13 squads total, or 12 if you substitute two TIEs for Howlrunner or Mauler or Rhymer; or Soontir, if you downgrade the two Bombers to generic TIEs). If Dengar's the only unique, and he's protected by four TAs, odds are the A's will need to burn down at least two TAs to get a clean shot at Dengar, which is a tall order in a single round (as 3+ A-wing attacks of 1.5 damage are required to reliably down each TA, multiplied by two, plus enough remaining attacks to get past Dengar's Scatter and Brace tokens). In the meantime, the A's are absorbing Counter 1 from Dengar-enhanced TAs, which isn't terrible, but it's also essentially free damage on the A's (if Soontir or Mauler is involved, there's the potential for additional auto-damage on some of the A's, as well).

If the TIEs decide to stand and fight the A's (or if the A's are successful in getting past the TAs and destroying Dengar), then Counter 2 kicks in for the A's, but if not, the enemy squads simply move on at Speed 4 to their primary target, and a big reason for taking the A's (counter bolstering their damage) has been bypassed. If the TAs, Bombers, and Dengar move on, and the generic TIEs stay behind for a lock-up knock-down drag-out with the A's, then another big reason for taking the A's (impressive speed and interception ability) has been bypassed. In either situation, the A's are still good fighters--just not as good as they could be: without counter, their damage is less than X's by a fair margin, and an early intercept is less valuable if the enemy can just float away (and can actually be quite bad if the A's over-extended beyond their activation range in order to perform the intercept, or if the A's make the jump to intercept while the enemy squadrons are covered by anti-squadron fire from Raiders, ISDs, etc.).

In the first case, the opponent is playing around one of their strengths which is dependent on the opponent making a particular choice (attacking a squadron with counter). In the second case, the A-wing has no answer for squadrons bolstered by Intel that want to leave them behind. Flight Controllers on the initial alpha strike improves the damage dealt by A's by a fair bit, though its "no gunnery teams" opportunity cost is high for dedicated carriers like the AFII (and can't even be taken by an MC-80 carrier).

A's are still great squads in a vacuum -- black anti-ship dice, great speed, counter when they are attacked. If the goal of your squadrons is to have fast, cheap, maneuverable squads that can operate semi-independently against ship-heavy lists, they're a fabulously cost-effective squadron. But if the goal of your squadrons is to counter and kill Intel-boosted ship-killing bomber swarms with multiple Escorts, I don't feel like the A is optimized for that purpose, since its damage output is low if the bombers decide to largely ignore the A's and focus on killing ships.

I can't help but think Ruthless Strategists would be a help.

So what is the best way to beat

Rhymer 16, Vader 21, Advanced 12, Degnar 20, 3 fire sprays 48. : 117 points

Or that plus 3 intercepts

150

I don't have much advice for that first one, but if your opponent is bringing 150 points of fighters to a 400 point game you can just have him DQ'd for bringing an illegal list.

10-0 baby!

This is the sort of thing I was afraid of. Firesprays should not be forming the mainstay of Imperial squadron support.

The question is, what is the lynchpin of the Fireball/Rhymerball? Once that is answered the next question is, what is the most effective way to eliminate that lynchpin and cripple the ball for the least amount of points?

I'd like to try this for the Imps-

Raider I (with either title really depending on style)- 48 pts

Flight Controllers- 6 pts

Expanded Hangar Bays- 5pts

(59)

Then add-

IG-2000- 21 pts

TIE Advanced x 2-3- 24/36

(57/45)

This comes in at 116 or 104 pts. The Raider activates bringing 1-2 TA and the IG with it. IG focuses on the lynchpin (I'm guessing Dengar first) using its ability to ignore Escort. FC gives it 5 blue dice for the attack. The TA(s) provides cover if you don't have first activation with the Raider. The Raider uses its turn to hit as many with anti-squadron as possible. Then it jumps away and so does the IG. The TA(s) stay behind to tie up what's left. Then turn around, scoop up another TA then repeat targeting the next most valuable "ball" target. Of course this is all conjecture and I have yet to actually try it. I can't wait to put it on the table vs the fireball.

The question is, what is the lynchpin of the Fireball/Rhymerball? Once that is answered the next question is, what is the most effective way to eliminate that lynchpin and cripple the ball for the least amount of points?

I'd like to try this for the Imps-

Raider I (with either title really depending on style)- 48 pts

Flight Controllers- 6 pts

Expanded Hangar Bays- 5pts

(59)

Then add-

IG-2000- 21 pts

TIE Advanced x 2-3- 24/36

(57/45)

This comes in at 116 or 104 pts. The Raider activates bringing 1-2 TA and the IG with it. IG focuses on the lynchpin (I'm guessing Dengar first) using its ability to ignore Escort. FC gives it 5 blue dice for the attack. The TA(s) provides cover if you don't have first activation with the Raider. The Raider uses its turn to hit as many with anti-squadron as possible. Then it jumps away and so does the IG. The TA(s) stay behind to tie up what's left. Then turn around, scoop up another TA then repeat targeting the next most valuable "ball" target. Of course this is all conjecture and I have yet to actually try it. I can't wait to put it on the table vs the fireball.

I did at one time run a Raider as a pocket carrier. Just kept a sq token and used sq again the next round.

It was fun and effective... until my raider got blown to bits by ship fire.

The idea has merit.

But just note that you will likely need 3 attacks to down a 5 or 6 hp ship.

remember, how many hits are on a blue die?? I think 50%.

Thus 50% x 5 = 2.5 damage. That's average. If you flop even a single die, he lives.

Oh and Rhymer and Dengar have Brace. And Dengar has Scatter!

And the second ship you attack with won't be able to ignore escort.

also, 400 divided by 3 is 133. 300/3 = 100. 100/3 = 33.

I can't help but think Ruthless Strategists would be a help.

Glad 2 with demolisher and ruthless strategists. Squadron command in two tie advanced (three dice each). Give everything two dice + 1 damage on every target, move to bring another arc online, and give them another two dice +1 damage. Works absolutely beautifully, and if you are facing fighter light, its only 10 points (the glad 2 marginal cost plus ruthless) that you are dedicating to antfighter.

How much have you all found your maneuverability in the Raider? Can you even get it to get close to the fighters you WANT to hit without taking a 5 to 8 dice wallop from some long range monster?

This is a serious question. I have no table experience.

I'm going to post this on my site in a couple of hours, but I figured I'll get the discussion started now.

Vader

Dengar

Rhymer

4x Firesprays

This is what the vaulted Fireball looks like and something you need to prepare yourself for.

Stats that you should care about:

8 blue bomber dice, 1 black bomber dice, 2 black anti-ship dice, and Vader's natural damage amplifier

19 blue dice AS, 2 black AS from Rhymer and Vader, and Vader's natural damage amplifier

Threat range of 3 + Medium Range from Rhymer, which translates to almost speed-5 threat range

38 total hull points, 5 braces and 1 scatter

Rogue on all the Firesprays

Dengar is the best Intel platform in the game due to his speed and durability

Vader provides dedicated AS and Escort

Rhymer amplifies the threat range of all squadron's anti-ship dramatically

http://imgur.com/a/M5etO

Saying that the Empire Strikes Back is a huge understatement when fighting against the new Fireball. The amount of hull points, versatility, immunity to squadron commands, threat range, and damage potential is absolutely insane. I think all this power stems from the fact that Rhymer offers unmatched threat range, Dengar allowing free movement, and that Firesprays might have one keywords too many. Rhymer was never an issue in Wave 1 due to the lack of Intel, but once Dengar and the Firesprays hit the meta everything went out of wack. Now, I'm not saying that this combination is unbeatable, it's just really difficult to handle. The Fireball gives me an extremely difficult game every time, and it's pretty much point and click with very little downsides. This is due to it being a snowball of different abilities and synergies all coming together that makes this combo so difficult to handle. Vader can do insane amounts of damage to squadrons and has Escort to tie down squadrons from killing Dengar, who in turn can jump around at will and loosen up other squadrons that's trying to tie down the Firesprays, who themselves have Rogue and can do a ton of to all targets. When I first read Rhymer I already thought he was a beast, but at least he could be chained to a rock if he was tied down. Dengar just had to break everything, didn't he?

I think this inclusion is going to be one of the biggest threats to the Wave 2 meta. Sooner or later, everyone will experience it, and if you don't, you're clearly not playing in tournaments. For big ship lists, or lists running very few fighters, there's going to be nothing from stopping this list from rolling you over. For everyone who has ever said: Just ignore the Fireball, kill the rest of his ships, I think you vastly underestimate the amount of damage 9 bomber dice and 2 black ant-ship can do to your ships that has a threat range of speed-4.5. This is not to mention the ISD and Raiders on the other side of the table, with hopefully Motti taking it easy while throwing squadron commands and watching your ships burn from his ISD-II. In actuality, the Fireball is more maneuverable and hits harder than any capital ship in the game, and shrug off light fighter cover like it's nothing. It's for this reason that I'm no longer looking at 2 A-Wing builds, or even Tycho and 3 A-Wings as the bare minimum, but looking at 6+ squadrons in order to face this new threat with greater confidence and reliability. Dengar simply has to be killed or else he's going to let loose his dogs onto your ships and there's very little you can do about it. Like I said before, every game I've played against a Fireball, I feel like I'm exerting significantly more effort in trying to keep my ships alive, having to execute precision movement with my A-Wings, and making sure they're tying down the right targets, baiting Dengar into sub optimal locations, when all the other player has to worry about is the order in which he should activate this Rogue squadrons. It's a bad feeling and testament to the threat level of this meta-changer.

Wave 2 did a lot of things and opened up a lot of new strategies. However, I think the paradigm has shifted dramatically when it comes to squadron warfare and ship warfare. All of a sudden, you have Ackbar and TRC90s putting out so much damage from long-range that Imperial players are caught reeling. At the same time, you have a self-sufficient super squadron like the Fireball that makes command-reliant Rebel squadrons look like a complete joke. I'm currently developing solutions to the Fireball "problem", but I think Imperials have a much better time dealing with the Fireball than Rebels. Part of it is the command-efficiency that Imperials will naturally gain if the Rebel player is taking a good amount of squadrons himself, but the other part comes from the fact that I don't think 2/4 A-Wings is enough these days. After all, just how long do you think the A-Wings in the above picture can last underneath all that hull and firepower? Once a few A-Wings die, Dengar will free the Fireball so it can start wreaking godlike damage onto your ships. It becomes less of a how long can you tie up the Fireball and more of a Dengar must be killed. You simply cannot outrace the damage done from a list running this combo and expect to come out on top. At least Imperial players have access to unmatched anti-squadron dice with Howlrunner and Interceptors, and they have an amazing flak platform from cheap 2-black Raiders with Ordnance Experts.

Seriously, go play some games vs. it and let's think about how to kill it together.

++++++++++

How many of you here have actually faced this thing? I think it's definitely going to be in most tournaments and we'll be seeing it more and more in the future. How does your list handle it? How can you prepare for it?

Brainstorming and stuff is cool, but I'd really like some actual playtime experience as well. Armchair generals need not apply.

Please discuss!

This thread now has multiple pages, so I'm gointo to respond to OP's post.

I'm just not seeing it.

You know what kills this squad dead? No joke?

A solid mix of Rebel fighters activated with Squadron Commands. Or Imperial fighters. In fact, Imperial fighters probably do it faster with the right options.

We have placed FAR too much emphasis on Rogue as a part of the game. Yes, it's nice. But a strong combination of characters and regular squadrons activated early just eats this, or prevents it from doing much. Imperials? IG88 will kill Dengar and knot up the whole ball. Rebels? I've recently learned of the amazing combo of Dutch Vander and Wedge Antilles, who eat units like this as part of a balanced diet before killing a Death Star.

You want to know what a really disgusting squadron list looks like? It's Rhymer, 7 bombers, and 1-2 Jumpmasters to kill an enemy ship immediately on turn 2. No joke. Solid chance they'll get an additional turn of shooting too if the enemy focuses on the bombers.

I will give FFG this: they completely revitalized squadrons in Wave 2. Just not in the way people expected them to.

Did you say disgusting squadron list?

MC80, Dodonna, expanded hangars, independence

AFmk2, expanded hangars, flight controllers

Neb.B escort frigate, Yvaris

Keyan Farlander + 4 B-wings

4 Y-wings

Minefields - fleet ambush - precision strike

Yes, it's a stupid list. But having so many bombers you don't need a fighter screen is a fun situation to be in - especially when all of those bombers choose critical hits from 4 cards

Whether it is a hard counter to fireball is another issue, but it certainly forces the fireball to fight squadrons instead, as ignoring 9 bomber squadrons is not going to end well.

The question is, what is the lynchpin of the Fireball/Rhymerball? Once that is answered the next question is, what is the most effective way to eliminate that lynchpin and cripple the ball for the least amount of points?

I'd like to try this for the Imps-

Raider I (with either title really depending on style)- 48 pts

Flight Controllers- 6 pts

Expanded Hangar Bays- 5pts

(59)

Then add-

IG-2000- 21 pts

TIE Advanced x 2-3- 24/36

(57/45)

This comes in at 116 or 104 pts. The Raider activates bringing 1-2 TA and the IG with it. IG focuses on the lynchpin (I'm guessing Dengar first) using its ability to ignore Escort. FC gives it 5 blue dice for the attack. The TA(s) provides cover if you don't have first activation with the Raider. The Raider uses its turn to hit as many with anti-squadron as possible. Then it jumps away and so does the IG. The TA(s) stay behind to tie up what's left. Then turn around, scoop up another TA then repeat targeting the next most valuable "ball" target. Of course this is all conjecture and I have yet to actually try it. I can't wait to put it on the table vs the fireball.

I did at one time run a Raider as a pocket carrier. Just kept a sq token and used sq again the next round.

It was fun and effective... until my raider got blown to bits by ship fire.

The idea has merit.

But just note that you will likely need 3 attacks to down a 5 or 6 hp ship.

remember, how many hits are on a blue die?? I think 50%.

Thus 50% x 5 = 2.5 damage. That's average. If you flop even a single die, he lives.

Oh and Rhymer and Dengar have Brace. And Dengar has Scatter!

And the second ship you attack with won't be able to ignore escort.

also, 400 divided by 3 is 133. 300/3 = 100. 100/3 = 33.

It's either Dengar or Rhymer--Rhymer if the bombers are already in striking-distance of your ships, Dengar if that's not yet the case (and your ships aren't plowing into medium range of the bombers on their own). Either way, you're right. For Imperial squadron groups, the whole is almost always stronger than the sum of its parts, since Imperial lists have/depend on squadron synergy more than rebel ships, as a general rule. Destroy one part of the chain, and the synergies start to dissipate. Taking out Rhymer makes the other squadrons mere squadrons again--they can still pose a threat to your ships, but the threat range is reduced to a normal level. Removing Dengar makes a Wave II squadron menace into a Wave I squadron menace--in other words, more controllable (and your own non-Heavy squadrons more valuable).

IG-88 has a lot of promise here, though I agree with others that he's probably not the answer in himself. One advantage is that as a Rogue, if you have enough squadrons to activate IG-88 late, you can move him into position to attack Dengar at the end of the squadron phase, then activate him again early in the next round if you have a ship in activation range and initiative, for the possibility of 9 anti-squadron dice at your target of choice (with Flight Controllers). That's an average of 4.5 damage (enough to kill Dengar on its own), plus a couple of accuracies to tap Scatter hopefully. Add any supporting fire from an ISD or Raider that you positioned the previous round, and that could very well be enough. Same basic strategy with Rhymer, only no Scatters to worry about.

That said, if you have enough squadrons to activate IG-88 late, you probably have enough to take a "blunt-instrument approach" against the opponent's squadrons--hammer his Escort squads until one of them pops, then exploit the opening to concentrate fire on Dengar/Rhymer before the remaining Escort(s) can reposition or the squads fly away. If there's only a single escort (Vader *cough* Vader), you may not even need to deal with the Escort at all, if your own squads have sufficient speed to get around his Escort bubble.

To which the general moral of the story is: if you're worried about enemy squadrons, try to take more squadrons than the enemy.

I can't help but think Ruthless Strategists would be a help.

Glad 2 with demolisher and ruthless strategists. Squadron command in two tie advanced (three dice each). Give everything two dice + 1 damage on every target, move to bring another arc online, and give them another two dice +1 damage. Works absolutely beautifully, and if you are facing fighter light, its only 10 points (the glad 2 marginal cost plus ruthless) that you are dedicating to antfighter.

Ship support can be huge in a squadron battle (depends on the ship, of course). ISD IIs and Glad IIs have phenomenal range, as do MC-80 Assaults and AFIIAs. Raiders are more tricky, since they need to be at close-range to take full advantage of their anti-squadron batteries, have fairly low health, and Intel allows bombers to shoot at the Raider freely (pending a ruling on Instigator's interaction with Intel and Heavy and other assorted craziness). The Glad II is a bit sturdier, and two blue dice means attacks from medium range are possible, where the Glad II can at least force a reroll on a nasty hit-crit with an Evade (not the case for Raiders, unfortunately). It will be interesting to see if GSD IIs see more use now that squads are more lethal--at just 4 points more than a GSD I, it's just an investment of 1% in total fleet cost now.

Did you say disgusting squadron list?

MC80, Dodonna, expanded hangars, independence

AFmk2, expanded hangars, flight controllers

Neb.B escort frigate, Yvaris

Keyan Farlander + 4 B-wings

4 Y-wings

Minefields - fleet ambush - precision strike

Yes, it's a stupid list. But having so many bombers you don't need a fighter screen is a fun situation to be in - especially when all of those bombers choose critical hits from 4 cards

Whether it is a hard counter to fireball is another issue, but it certainly forces the fireball to fight squadrons instead, as ignoring 9 bomber squadrons is not going to end well.

This (and Cactus's suggestion above) is a creative response. Basically, "can my bombers out-damage your bombers"?

I feel like this strategy favors cheap generic bombers over specialized bombers/squadrons, if for no other reason than you can spread your opponent really thin if he wants to stop you. You can fit 13 Bombers + Rhymer into 134 points (133), which exposes Rhymer to fire-at-will, but offers insane damage potential at medium range (14 blacks...). Or Rhymer + 9 bombers + 2 TAs + a generic Jumpmaster (also 133), if you want to keep Rhymer along a bit longer (for a still-impressive 12 blacks...). Or 8 B-wings + Keyan (or Jan) on the Rebel side (132/131), for 16-18 bomber dice and a decent anti-squadron strike force (Boosted Comms AFIIBs with Flight Controllers?). Heck, even 13 Y-wings (130) (or 12 with a generic HWK (132)) is going to pose a problem for the opponent if you split them up into discrete groups of 2-3, unless your enemy is packing a lot of squadrons (HWK + 2 Ys, 2 Ys, 2Ys, 2Ys, 2Ys, 2Ys = six discrete groups, and the Intel group is moving unless it gets focused so it has to be targeted first; then you need at least... what... four generic TIEs to reliably destroy a single Y-wing...?).

It does expose your ships to opposing bomber fire, of course, so probably best to run this type of squad core with a fleet that is fast enough to maneuver around bombers (no Vics, probably...), and preferably to strafe the bombers as they close and/or attack (Gunnery Teams/Point Defense Reroute/Quad Lasers, etc.).

I'm now having visions of a B-wing swarm list, so I'm going to go now...

All the talk of countering Fireball is distracting, but probably not an answer.

If you are going to gain air superiority, vader, Howlrunner, MITHEL, Rhymer, and a mix of bombers, Tie's, and Squints seems more destructive to me. It can ace your fireball and much of what the Rebels can throw against it.

Mithel is just horrible when put up against any "Ball", combo that with enough squadron command to control it and Chireneu w/Corruptor and I think you're good.

Another issue in this thread is the constant Squadron vs Squadron mentality of the comparisons. Remember we have capital ships that are going after objectives and killing opposing ships/Fighters. Leave them out of the equation and that is a mistake, at least I would think.

I was thinking about this a little tonight, and I'm sure Fireball will make an appearance eventually in my locale. I still want to think rebels are strong so....

For practice this week,

Rebels Fleet (375 of 400 pts)
Commander: Garm Bel Iblis (25 pts)
Flagship: (108 pts)

• Assault Frigate Mark II B(72 pts)
• Gallant Haven (8 pts)
• Adar Tallon (10 pts)
• Flight Controllers (6 pts)
• Boosted Comms (4 pts)
• Redundant Shields (8 pts)
  

Fleet Ship 1: (68 pts)

• Nebulon-B Escort Frigate(57 pts)
• Yavaris (5 pts)
• Slaved Turrets (6 pts)
  

Fleet Ship 2: (67 pts)

• Nebulon-B Support Refit(51 pts)
• Salvation (7 pts)
• Veteran Captain (3 pts)
• Slaved Turrets (6 pts)
  

Squadrons (132 of 134 pts):

• 1x Wedge Antilles X-Wing Squadron (19 pts)
• 1x Dutch Vander Y-Wing Squadron (16 pts)
• 1x Moldy Crow - Jan Ors (19 pts)
• 4x X-Wing Squadron (52 pts)
• 1x Millennium Falcon - Han Solo (26 pts)
  

Objectives: Precision Strike , Contested Outpost , Superior Positions

I like this.

It maintains some "Flavor" rather than giving everything up to kill rhymerball. It's got the heavy hitting Salvation for a distraction, and Solo who is fun to play and can be a factor.

Aggressive play is probably prudent. Use your tools to get close, enough, but not too close. Play that range game. Get Wedge in there with 7 dice then 6 and 6 to get air superiority early.

What does rhymerball kill? Carrier to stop fighters quick? Salvation first to stop the shooting. Give choices and get good with the options you have left.

Might not be most optimal choice, but being rounded with a plan seems a better option than just meta-ing against Fireball.

....then again, Rum might be getting to me tonight?

Sorry to gravedig this post, but I didn't want to make a new one just to have a feel of where the meta is heading.

Question is: is fireball stil viable? From my experience, while it looks great on paper, imps just don't have the right ships to get it going. Yes, I know Firesprays have rogue, but still it's a huge point investment in a relatively small fighter force, which can and will be overwhelmed by a much smaller dedicated AS force, plus if you're relying on rogue to activate you're gonna get alphaed or at least mopped up in a fight where you're flying expensive 18 points bombers and they have x wing/ interceptors/whatever doing their job.

Then, speaking of downsides, if you're flying the fireball you have very few options for your ships: it's either VSD + kitted up ISD or some combination of ISD GSD and raider. Bringing more than 1 VSD feels kind of a waste, since firesprays have rogue and the VSD main role is a carrier, and 2 ISDs won't fit.

I would really love to get the ball going, but I'm finding more and more that if you want to fly bombers, rebels is the way to go.

How do you guys feel about it? Thoughts? List ideas?

Was at a Store Champs at the weekend. Only got 7 players, but 3 of the top 4 were Firespray-heavy Imps (and 2nd-4th place were decided on tiebreakers since we all ended on the same points). None of us used a "true" Fireball, instead just spamming out the Firesprays. From memory first place had 4 of them, second place had 5, 4th had 5 + Rhymer.

Part of that success might just be that there weren't many squads in any of the other lists. If left unopposed the Firesprays could just flit around and hand out damage easily.