This thread got uglier than a rhymerball vs an all ship list real fast...

HERE ARE MY TEW CENTS! [insert pointless insults and arguing here]

I have gradually evolved to using a "middle of the road" version of the rhymerball, I recognized that a powerful alpha strike can take one apart so I have gone to somewhere in the middle, less guaranteed anti-ship and more "thorny" vs squads

Using Dengar, Howl, Soontir, Darth to create a painful set of choices for attacking squadrons. Keep in mind dengar adds a counter to everyone and howl gives an extra counter die to those with swarm. Additionally I put soontir out front with vader and as you HAVE to hit vader first you take auto damage from soontir. A clever opponent used the obstruction denial of obstacles to help mitigate this as Escort is dependent on engagement and you arent engaged if you are obstructed. This is also a good way to target dengar without having to deal with Vader too. I guess thats a caveat for both those seeking to beat a RB and those taking one, obstacles and their placement can have a big impact on the inevitable squadron furball!

Our meta has also started veering towards things like X-Wings, they have the versatility to both be solid anti-squad and pesky bombers. B-wings with the Speedy bomber title on the MC80 are also surprisingly effective if well used.

Personally I see the "all ship" doctrine this game slipped into as a travesty and I'm glad that its coming away from that.

Yes, its a bit unbalanced at the moment (maybe..) but I think I have a pretty solid idea that wave 3 will fix or mitigate some of that. Expect to see red-dice anti-fighter frigates. You heard it here first folks.

Your middle of the road is a bit more aggressive than mine for sure. I just use Mithel to cause some abuse.

I think IG88 will be big as well as Dutch. We may even see more Adar Tallon together with Dutch to lock down the Advanced and Dengar.

My problem with Dutch, and this is a smaller problem but still up there, is that if you don't roll a accuracy die on the attack he's just going to scatter. Yes, you'll definitely make him burn it in a hurry, but pinning him in place before he can go off and start locking down your attack force is another story.

I guess while we're at it, that's my other problem: Speed-3. Speed-3 ships are almost begging to get inteled in larger masses than speed-5 A-Wings because they can't spread out as much..

I'll ask the same question I asked Truth, what do you think is the minimal investment needed to kill Vader/Dengar with Rebels?

I've found that there are some nasty combos for AS work and some for dealing with ships. I personally tend to use about half and half in my fleets. What combination is always in flux.

Imperials generally have far better combos. Dengar is just a pain to deal with, but to be safe requires escorting with Advanceds. That's something that actually hurts the fighter effectiveness overall (more expensive, less firepower, and no counter, so I can bring in fighters all day to whale on them.) To take him out, there are various things you can use, the most obvious being IG-88, or simply killing the escorts (generally, if you position outside of Dengar, you don't get inteled, so you do lock down those squadrons. It's also important with Fel. If they are in front, then the Escort is doing nothing. (and has to move to come into range.) Jan is great for dealing with that sort of thing, because aside from IG-88, if she brings X-Wings, they have a lot of firepower, and have a lot more HP than most Imperial fighters.

Imperial fighters generally suffer horribly from AS fire, something most rebel ships have a decent amount of (MC80, Neb-B and one of the AFM2s) Even at 1 die, that's still not horrible against TIEs aside from the advanced. It's gotten to the point where I abandoned putting slaved turrets on a support Neb-B, and put it on an Escort Neb-B, because those 2 die can often make a difference. Generally AS fire won't kill squads, but will weaken them, and that's what you are going for, to let your fighters kill them. It does run into some problems with aces with defense tokens. Rebels aren't as weak to it, but they suffer from it, If you get your fighters to weaken a lot of ships, and then let an ISD or other 2 die ship do an AS shot, it may not kill all of them, but they will be quite weak, and die next turn.

Rymer balls if supported by squadron commands are really good, because for example an ISD2 basically gets to throw 4 attacks of each color at something in front of it, with Rhymer + 3 bombers. And Firesprays are twice as expensive as 2 additional TIE bombers. Which, have more health and IMO have better firepower against both types, squads and ships. (3 Blue vs 2 Black (expected 1.5 vs 1.4375, though with twice the chance of nothing, so I still think 2 black is better, plus it's spread out over multiple attacks), and 2 Blue vs 2 Black (1.5 vs 2 damage)) The thing is needing to use squadron commands vs others. Generally the only other one I would want would be Engineering for most of my ships. (Navigate and CF have situational uses.) They also leave you with a lot more headroom for more anti-squadron platforms compared to the firesprays. Alone, you could have 9 tie fighters for the cost of 4 firesprays, and can blanket an area in fighters, with more (spread out) hp, which is a bonus against fighters, but a liability against ships. The firesprays likely need 2 shots to kill a TIE. Unless they kill it with one shot, you've got to waste another shot against it to kill it.

Rebels actually have less AS firepower, but make up for it in ships that simply are tougher. (and more dangerous to ships) There's no great benefit to the rogues aside from Jan for AS work, but they have Dutch and Wedge, who are great at AS work. (Wedge is situationally normal or great) However, I find that overall that toughness works well.

That's what it comes down to, do you use squadron commands and spend less points on squadrons that do more, of you go for something that will let you use other commands. I suspect that people find the second 'easier' because they want to use those command dials. I contend that usually it is not more efficient, and anyone can match the effectiveness of the 'fireball' using cheaper ships against ships, while having enough fighters to take out the fireball.

For Rebels, 4 YT-2400s would be able to significantly impair Rymer + Dengar and friends. They have the speed to get there, can pursue if they use Intel to run away, hit plenty hard, and are tough enough to not die immediately to return fire. Worked in pairs to either side of the ball and you can make harder choices for the Imperial player. And they cost half what the Ryhmer ball costs.

Still though, this is all very reactive. Why not use 4 B-Wings/H6s instead? If the Imperial, player is dropping 130 points on their squadrons, you could always send a significant bomber force towards their flagship. Make the Imperial player use their Ryhmer ball to defend their own ships. Or at least think about it. The Rymer ball is VERY geared towards anti-ship. I could see the meta change to where that is a losing proposition.

For Rebels, 4 YT-2400s would be able to significantly impair Rymer + Dengar and friends. They have the speed to get there, can pursue if they use Intel to run away, hit plenty hard, and are tough enough to not die immediately to return fire. Worked in pairs to either side of the ball and you can make harder choices for the Imperial player. And they cost half what the Ryhmer ball costs.

Still though, this is all very reactive. Why not use 4 B-Wings/H6s instead? If the Imperial, player is dropping 130 points on their squadrons, you could always send a significant bomber force towards their flagship. Make the Imperial player use their Ryhmer ball to defend their own ships. Or at least think about it. The Rymer ball is VERY geared towards anti-ship. I could see the meta change to where that is a losing proposition.

That would probably be very effective in a one off game with a friend but in the context of a tournament scene that could be really risky. You stand as good a chance of running into someone prepared for a Rhymer Ball with 100+ points of fighters that will just run over the B-wings and continue on to your cap ships.

The YT-2400 thing could certainly have some merit though.

For Rebels, 4 YT-2400s would be able to significantly impair Rymer + Dengar and friends. They have the speed to get there, can pursue if they use Intel to run away, hit plenty hard, and are tough enough to not die immediately to return fire. Worked in pairs to either side of the ball and you can make harder choices for the Imperial player. And they cost half what the Ryhmer ball costs.

Still though, this is all very reactive. Why not use 4 B-Wings/H6s instead? If the Imperial, player is dropping 130 points on their squadrons, you could always send a significant bomber force towards their flagship. Make the Imperial player use their Ryhmer ball to defend their own ships. Or at least think about it. The Rymer ball is VERY geared towards anti-ship. I could see the meta change to where that is a losing proposition.

That would probably be very effective in a one off game with a friend but in the context of a tournament scene that could be really risky. You stand as good a chance of running into someone prepared for a Rhymer Ball with 100+ points of fighters that will just run over the B-wings and continue on to your cap ships.

The YT-2400 thing could certainly have some merit though.

Sure, I was just thinking of my most recent game against Rhymer. I was playing with about 100 points of Rebel squadrons and was able to jump in and kill Vader early. After that, he was unable to do anything to counter my bombers tearing his ships up.

So, how can you put enough pressure on the Ryhmer player to get them to use their squadrons in an non optimal fashion. That might be the better way for Rebels to counter them.

This thread got uglier than a rhymerball vs an all ship list real fast...

HERE ARE MY TEW CENTS! [insert pointless insults and arguing here]

I have gradually evolved to using a "middle of the road" version of the rhymerball, I recognized that a powerful alpha strike can take one apart so I have gone to somewhere in the middle, less guaranteed anti-ship and more "thorny" vs squads

Using Dengar, Howl, Soontir, Darth to create a painful set of choices for attacking squadrons. Keep in mind dengar adds a counter to everyone and howl gives an extra counter die to those with swarm. Additionally I put soontir out front with vader and as you HAVE to hit vader first you take auto damage from soontir. A clever opponent used the obstruction denial of obstacles to help mitigate this as Escort is dependent on engagement and you arent engaged if you are obstructed. This is also a good way to target dengar without having to deal with Vader too. I guess thats a caveat for both those seeking to beat a RB and those taking one, obstacles and their placement can have a big impact on the inevitable squadron furball!

Our meta has also started veering towards things like X-Wings, they have the versatility to both be solid anti-squad and pesky bombers. B-wings with the Speedy bomber title on the MC80 are also surprisingly effective if well used.

Personally I see the "all ship" doctrine this game slipped into as a travesty and I'm glad that its coming away from that.

Yes, its a bit unbalanced at the moment (maybe..) but I think I have a pretty solid idea that wave 3 will fix or mitigate some of that. Expect to see red-dice anti-fighter frigates. You heard it here first folks.

Your middle of the road is a bit more aggressive than mine for sure. I just use Mithel to cause some abuse.

I think IG88 will be big as well as Dutch. We may even see more Adar Tallon together with Dutch to lock down the Advanced and Dengar.

My problem with Dutch, and this is a smaller problem but still up there, is that if you don't roll a accuracy die on the attack he's just going to scatter. Yes, you'll definitely make him burn it in a hurry, but pinning him in place before he can go off and start locking down your attack force is another story.

I guess while we're at it, that's my other problem: Speed-3. Speed-3 ships are almost begging to get inteled in larger masses than speed-5 A-Wings because they can't spread out as much..

I'll ask the same question I asked Truth, what do you think is the minimal investment needed to kill Vader/Dengar with Rebels?

Which says Dutch hits Dengar? Hit Vader who can't scatter. Jan Ors breathes new life into the X-Wing

As boring as it sounds probably A-Wings and Flight Controllers. As long as you are willing to do some squad commands against opponents without Ryhmer then you shouldn't be put to far behind in other games.

Which says Dutch hits Dengar? Hit Vader who can't scatter. Jan Ors breathes new life into the X-Wing

Yes, yes, but sooner or later you gotta catch the bugger. I'm sure Vader will get a good thrashing from Dutch/Wedge, now to round out the rest of the squadron composition.

What about Jan Ors? Do you think she's really needed if you're just planning to smack the Fireball in the face with squadron commands?

Which says Dutch hits Dengar? Hit Vader who can't scatter. Jan Ors breathes new life into the X-Wing

Yes, yes, but sooner or later you gotta catch the bugger. I'm sure Vader will get a good thrashing from Dutch/Wedge, now to round out the rest of the squadron composition.

What about Jan Ors? Do you think she's really needed if you're just planning to smack the Fireball in the face with squadron commands?

She would help prevent Intel shenanigans. For instance keeping an intel ship and maybe an escort or something around so they can move the ball off, now you can just follow them. Also you know, Braces for days is fun.

Which says Dutch hits Dengar? Hit Vader who can't scatter. Jan Ors breathes new life into the X-Wing

Yes, yes, but sooner or later you gotta catch the bugger. I'm sure Vader will get a good thrashing from Dutch/Wedge, now to round out the rest of the squadron composition.

What about Jan Ors? Do you think she's really needed if you're just planning to smack the Fireball in the face with squadron commands?

+++ Fireball vs Rebels eqv (254pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (129pts) ++

+ Squadrons (129pts) +

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

•Darth Vader (21pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

•Major Rhymer (16pts)

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (125pts) ++

+ Squadrons (125pts) +

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

•"Dutch" Vander (16pts)

•Jan Ors (19pts)

•Wedge Antilles (19pts)

For Rebels, 4 YT-2400s would be able to significantly impair Rymer + Dengar and friends. They have the speed to get there, can pursue if they use Intel to run away, hit plenty hard, and are tough enough to not die immediately to return fire. Worked in pairs to either side of the ball and you can make harder choices for the Imperial player. And they cost half what the Ryhmer ball costs.

Still though, this is all very reactive. Why not use 4 B-Wings/H6s instead? If the Imperial, player is dropping 130 points on their squadrons, you could always send a significant bomber force towards their flagship. Make the Imperial player use their Ryhmer ball to defend their own ships. Or at least think about it. The Rymer ball is VERY geared towards anti-ship. I could see the meta change to where that is a losing proposition.

Interesting perspective, and I thought about this as well.

But I guess my mentality going into this with Rebels is..

Which says Dutch hits Dengar? Hit Vader who can't scatter. Jan Ors breathes new life into the X-Wing

Yes, yes, but sooner or later you gotta catch the bugger. I'm sure Vader will get a good thrashing from Dutch/Wedge, now to round out the rest of the squadron composition.

What about Jan Ors? Do you think she's really needed if you're just planning to smack the Fireball in the face with squadron commands?

I sense Jan Ors is going to be highly used by Rebels. It let's them use X-Wings and A-Wings effectively for less than the cost of the rebel equivalent. Let's see here. . .

+++ Fireball vs Rebels eqv (254pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (129pts) ++

+ Squadrons (129pts) +

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

•Darth Vader (21pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

•Major Rhymer (16pts)

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (125pts) ++

+ Squadrons (125pts) +

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

•"Dutch" Vander (16pts)

•Jan Ors (19pts)

•Wedge Antilles (19pts)

This might go without saying but I think ship selection starts becoming important to consider when thinking about squadron meta. The rebel list for instance would work really well with 2 AFMK2s as they don't need any work to get everything activated were as something like a MC80, MC30, Neb B, CR90 get up would be a little bit awkward.

Warning, theoretical post incoming (still haven’t got wave two here), and I have been on an armada break while kings of war has been taking off.

Anyway, would it be possible to simply ignore the ball and got for beating it in a damage race. The rationale is that firesprays deal less damage than equal points in non-rogue bombers, but the ball is still dependant on non-rogue squadrons to be fully effective. At 130ish points how do we think the ball would fare against something like 9 B-wings or rhymer, vader, 1-2 advanced, 7-8 bombers. These alternative wings deal more damage and cover more table space. In theory the ball would have to focus time and effort to inefficiently lock down parts of these wings or simply lose in the race of attrition.

Now this might fall flat on its face when we consider the need for pretty much a fleets worth of squadron commands to keep it all moving while the ball only really needs vader and rhymer activated by capitals to be fully effective.

The alternative wings would also have the wave one issue of being susceptible to being locked down but that’s not really the point, the idea is to try and force the ball to do something it’s not good at or be out done at what it is good at.

Not trying to say that this is an option, just a thought I had while reading this. Has anyone tried anything similar?

Edit......and it looks like people beat me to it while I was typing this.

Which says Dutch hits Dengar? Hit Vader who can't scatter. Jan Ors breathes new life into the X-Wing

Yes, yes, but sooner or later you gotta catch the bugger. I'm sure Vader will get a good thrashing from Dutch/Wedge, now to round out the rest of the squadron composition.

What about Jan Ors? Do you think she's really needed if you're just planning to smack the Fireball in the face with squadron commands?

I sense Jan Ors is going to be highly used by Rebels. It let's them use X-Wings and A-Wings effectively for less than the cost of the rebel equivalent. Let's see here. . .

+++ Fireball vs Rebels eqv (254pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (129pts) ++

+ Squadrons (129pts) +

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

•Darth Vader (21pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

•Major Rhymer (16pts)

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (125pts) ++

+ Squadrons (125pts) +

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

•"Dutch" Vander (16pts)

•Jan Ors (19pts)

•Wedge Antilles (19pts)

This might go without saying but I think ship selection starts becoming important to consider when thinking about squadron meta. The rebel list for instance would work really well with 2 AFMK2s as they don't need any work to get everything activated were as something like a MC80, MC30, Neb B, CR90 get up would be a little bit awkward.

For Rebels, 4 YT-2400s would be able to significantly impair Rymer + Dengar and friends. They have the speed to get there, can pursue if they use Intel to run away, hit plenty hard, and are tough enough to not die immediately to return fire. Worked in pairs to either side of the ball and you can make harder choices for the Imperial player. And they cost half what the Ryhmer ball costs.

Still though, this is all very reactive. Why not use 4 B-Wings/H6s instead? If the Imperial, player is dropping 130 points on their squadrons, you could always send a significant bomber force towards their flagship. Make the Imperial player use their Ryhmer ball to defend their own ships. Or at least think about it. The Rymer ball is VERY geared towards anti-ship. I could see the meta change to where that is a losing proposition.

Interesting perspective, and I thought about this as well.

But I guess my mentality going into this with Rebels is..]

For myself I plan on sticking with generics for the Rebels. Rhymer builds tend to have a significant investment tied up in named characters and the Rogue keyword. I can get the equivalent firepower for around half the cost with generics. Now, they take more work on my part, but that's okay. Overall I've been mostly running generics for Rebels and feeling good about that choice. Rarely have I seen named Rebels played against me Ina away that seemed worthwhile. Jan I think will be an exception to that, as she is great.

Which says Dutch hits Dengar? Hit Vader who can't scatter. Jan Ors breathes new life into the X-Wing

Yes, yes, but sooner or later you gotta catch the bugger. I'm sure Vader will get a good thrashing from Dutch/Wedge, now to round out the rest of the squadron composition.

What about Jan Ors? Do you think she's really needed if you're just planning to smack the Fireball in the face with squadron commands?

I sense Jan Ors is going to be highly used by Rebels. It let's them use X-Wings and A-Wings effectively for less than the cost of the rebel equivalent. Let's see here. . .

+++ Fireball vs Rebels eqv (254pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (129pts) ++

+ Squadrons (129pts) +

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

•Darth Vader (21pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

•Major Rhymer (16pts)

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (125pts) ++

+ Squadrons (125pts) +

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

•"Dutch" Vander (16pts)

•Jan Ors (19pts)

•Wedge Antilles (19pts)

This might go without saying but I think ship selection starts becoming important to consider when thinking about squadron meta. The rebel list for instance would work really well with 2 AFMK2s as they don't need any work to get everything activated were as something like a MC80, MC30, Neb B, CR90 get up would be a little bit awkward.

Gallant Haven has new life breathed into it.

See I can't get out of the mindset that squadrons are kind of a buffer for my big ships. Playing them that close to their carriers seems very alien to me. Probably something I should work on.

For Rebels, 4 YT-2400s would be able to significantly impair Rymer + Dengar and friends. They have the speed to get there, can pursue if they use Intel to run away, hit plenty hard, and are tough enough to not die immediately to return fire. Worked in pairs to either side of the ball and you can make harder choices for the Imperial player. And they cost half what the Ryhmer ball costs.

Still though, this is all very reactive. Why not use 4 B-Wings/H6s instead? If the Imperial, player is dropping 130 points on their squadrons, you could always send a significant bomber force towards their flagship. Make the Imperial player use their Ryhmer ball to defend their own ships. Or at least think about it. The Rymer ball is VERY geared towards anti-ship. I could see the meta change to where that is a losing proposition.

Interesting perspective, and I thought about this as well.

But I guess my mentality going into this with Rebels is..]

For myself I plan on sticking with generics for the Rebels. Rhymer builds tend to have a significant investment tied up in named characters and the Rogue keyword. I can get the equivalent firepower for around half the cost with generics. Now, they take more work on my part, but that's okay. Overall I've been mostly running generics for Rebels and feeling good about that choice. Rarely have I seen named Rebels played against me Ina away that seemed worthwhile. Jan I think will be an exception to that, as she is great.

I think that's my mentality as well when playing with Rebels. Hence the long-standing Tycho + 3x A-Wings.

However, because a bigger footprint is needed, I think I'm looking at Wedge, Dutch, Jan, and the rest is flavor for taste. Maybe one extra X-Wing and the rest A-Wings will be good.

Dutch and Jan are the 2 best named Rebels in my mind. Wedge is problematic. It's so important to get the jump in the squadron game, where Wedge requires patience or being limited to the same target as Dutch. I'd rather bring a regular X-Wing and Jan for the durability. You can use the points saved for Flight Controllers, which would get you more extra dice over the course of the game than Wedge in most cases.

And I used to be a big fan of Tycho, but you can get most of his utility through Intel now. He's still good, but no longer irreplaceable.

Which says Dutch hits Dengar? Hit Vader who can't scatter. Jan Ors breathes new life into the X-Wing

Yes, yes, but sooner or later you gotta catch the bugger. I'm sure Vader will get a good thrashing from Dutch/Wedge, now to round out the rest of the squadron composition.

What about Jan Ors? Do you think she's really needed if you're just planning to smack the Fireball in the face with squadron commands?

I sense Jan Ors is going to be highly used by Rebels. It let's them use X-Wings and A-Wings effectively for less than the cost of the rebel equivalent. Let's see here. . .

+++ Fireball vs Rebels eqv (254pts) +++

++ Imperial Navy (Standard) (129pts) ++

+ Squadrons (129pts) +

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

Firespray-31 (18pts)

•Darth Vader (21pts)

•Dengar (20pts)

•Major Rhymer (16pts)

++ Rebel Fleet (Standard) (125pts) ++

+ Squadrons (125pts) +

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

X-Wing Squadron (13pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

YT-2400 (16pts)

•"Dutch" Vander (16pts)

•Jan Ors (19pts)

•Wedge Antilles (19pts)

This might go without saying but I think ship selection starts becoming important to consider when thinking about squadron meta. The rebel list for instance would work really well with 2 AFMK2s as they don't need any work to get everything activated were as something like a MC80, MC30, Neb B, CR90 get up would be a little bit awkward.

Gallant Haven has new life breathed into it.

See I can't get out of the mindset that squadrons are kind of a buffer for my big ships. Playing them that close to their carriers seems very alien to me. Probably something I should work on.

Dutch and Jan are the 2 best named Rebels in my mind. Wedge is problematic. It's so important to get the jump in the squadron game, where Wedge requires patience or being limited to the same target as Dutch. I'd rather bring a regular X-Wing and Jan for the durability. You can use the points saved for Flight Controllers, which would get you more extra dice over the course of the game than Wedge in most cases.

And I used to be a big fan of Tycho, but you can get most of his utility through Intel now. He's still good, but no longer irreplaceable.

Only Scatter token on the rebel side still.

This thread got uglier than a rhymerball vs an all ship list real fast...

HERE ARE MY TEW CENTS! [insert pointless insults and arguing here]

I have gradually evolved to using a "middle of the road" version of the rhymerball, I recognized that a powerful alpha strike can take one apart so I have gone to somewhere in the middle, less guaranteed anti-ship and more "thorny" vs squads

Using Dengar, Howl, Soontir, Darth to create a painful set of choices for attacking squadrons. Keep in mind dengar adds a counter to everyone and howl gives an extra counter die to those with swarm. Additionally I put soontir out front with vader and as you HAVE to hit vader first you take auto damage from soontir. A clever opponent used the obstruction denial of obstacles to help mitigate this as Escort is dependent on engagement and you arent engaged if you are obstructed. This is also a good way to target dengar without having to deal with Vader too. I guess thats a caveat for both those seeking to beat a RB and those taking one, obstacles and their placement can have a big impact on the inevitable squadron furball!

Our meta has also started veering towards things like X-Wings, they have the versatility to both be solid anti-squad and pesky bombers. B-wings with the Speedy bomber title on the MC80 are also surprisingly effective if well used.

Personally I see the "all ship" doctrine this game slipped into as a travesty and I'm glad that its coming away from that.

Yes, its a bit unbalanced at the moment (maybe..) but I think I have a pretty solid idea that wave 3 will fix or mitigate some of that. Expect to see red-dice anti-fighter frigates. You heard it here first folks.

Your middle of the road is a bit more aggressive than mine for sure. I just use Mithel to cause some abuse.

I think IG88 will be big as well as Dutch. We may even see more Adar Tallon together with Dutch to lock down the Advanced and Dengar.

My problem with Dutch, and this is a smaller problem but still up there, is that if you don't roll a accuracy die on the attack he's just going to scatter. Yes, you'll definitely make him burn it in a hurry, but pinning him in place before he can go off and start locking down your attack force is another story.

I guess while we're at it, that's my other problem: Speed-3. Speed-3 ships are almost begging to get inteled in larger masses than speed-5 A-Wings because they can't spread out as much..

I'll ask the same question I asked Truth, what do you think is the minimal investment needed to kill Vader/Dengar with Rebels?

As far as just pure generics, A-Wings are the pretty obvious way to go. You can a lot of them for cheap. I keep wanting to use flight controllers, but I just can't find a platform I like it on. Rebels only have the AFII and the MC30, after all, and that weapons team slot just begs to be used for Gunnery Team or Ordnance Experts. I think 60-65 points is probably what you need. I think Tycho and 4 A-Wings under the command of an MC80 w/ Expanded Hangars could do well. You'll probably still need multiple turns to actually kill Dengar, but you can place the A-Wings in such a way to make it a nightmare for the ball to move.

For Rebels, 4 YT-2400s would be able to significantly impair Rymer + Dengar and friends. They have the speed to get there, can pursue if they use Intel to run away, hit plenty hard, and are tough enough to not die immediately to return fire. Worked in pairs to either side of the ball and you can make harder choices for the Imperial player. And they cost half what the Ryhmer ball costs.

Still though, this is all very reactive. Why not use 4 B-Wings/H6s instead? If the Imperial, player is dropping 130 points on their squadrons, you could always send a significant bomber force towards their flagship. Make the Imperial player use their Ryhmer ball to defend their own ships. Or at least think about it. The Rymer ball is VERY geared towards anti-ship. I could see the meta change to where that is a losing proposition.

This was my conclusion to countering the ryhmer/firespray balls, they may bomb hard, but if i pose an even harder bombing threat they will be forced to react to me, im pretty sure my boosted comms scurrg ball will melt an ISD way faster than ryhmer will eat my mon cal, so far my list is undefeated even vs heavy squadron builds in 6 games

The problem with this "fireball" is that you're dumping a TON of points into that rogue keyword that doesn't help you at all in fighter engagements. All other things being equal, fighter squadron without rogue will beat an equivalent points value of rogues every time, because you're paying for that flexibility on the rogue.

I have played against it on Vassal, and similar builds IRL, and it's not that hard to beat it with a well-constructed fighter defense. Not nearly as bad as, for example, the Rieekan Aces list. You use the same anti-squadron tactics you use for every other squadron build, jumping in to target Dengar (who has to be in the thick of it to apply Intel) and dictating the terms of the engagement by striking first and striking hard. As someone else pointed out, Vader and Dengar are the lynchpins here. Once they're gone, this build falls apart. And 4x4 blue dice (FC A-wings, X-wing, FC B-wings, interceptors, etc) will reliably alpha strike either one. Sure, you'll eat a round of return fire, but at that point you're already dictating the terms of the engagement, preventing them from concentrating return fire and enabling your defenders to survive long enough to gut the rest of the ball.

Rhymer was never an issue in Wave 1

Not sure about your meta in Wave 1, but in every game I played it was WAY more of an issue than it is now, or than your "fireball" is. Specifically because you had to have a fighter defense to beat it, but that squadron defense was wasted points against ship-heavy builds, and ship-heavy builds were so common, the presence of the Rhymer ball was a HUGE deal that impacted my meta much more than the GenCon special did. Now, squadrons are commonplace, so strong defenses against them are rarely wasted points.

This.

The Fireball will tear through all-ship lists.

It can easily be rendered moot by a reasonable fighter screen.

It is utterly disassembled by high fighter count with squadron commands.

What is reasonable?

And what is with all the talk of squadron commands? Are you under the assumption that the opposing player is not issuing commands of his own and just letting his Firesprays die?

Reasonable is at or above six TIE fighters, or a mixture of 4-6 Rebel squadrons deployed well. With a good player and some luck, even four TIEs can do the job.

And I'm under no assumptions. I've played the Fireball plenty.

Timely squadron commands are REQUIRED for it to succeed. To do otherwise invites disaster.

What I'm saying is that, even if you're using your squadron commands, an opponent using his own commands can still nullify your inferior number of higher priced Firesprays with a much higher number of cheaper and more effective anti-squadron squadrons.

This seems a reasonable trade off, to me, and has me running the firesprays without Rhymer so they can spread out rather than clump up. Rhymer doesn't feel like he's worth the points a lot of the time, but he's good in a clinch.

Ok not saying this is a great counter but for 80 pts you can take a Raider with Impetuous, flight controllers and expanded hanger bays escorted by two TIE's, two interceptors would be better but cost 6 pts more. Launch the two fighters to take out rhymer or dengar. You can position them pretty well to avoid escort. Take out dengar/rhymer with the fighter escort and blast the whole lot with a blue and black die. And which ever one is your favorite target hit again.

Benefits extra ship activations.

Take two spending 160 pts and you get two more activations and a pretty good chance of destroying the whole Rhymer ball in two activations. And tying down whatever is left to be destoryed next turn.

Or 100 pts Flight controllers on a Gladiator II demolisher. Escorted by two interceptors.

Hmm, I've tried Tycho + 3 A-Wing for a while now and it hasn't been working for me even with very precise placement that limits to the ball from flying around too much.

I think I will up it to 6, or 5 with Tycho.