No.

I'm done.

There is no reciprocated respect.

Thus, I'm expecting, or at least hoping people either agree or disagree with me with the context that I've provided, or strong arguments of their own.

The more you attack people and respond aggressively or dismissively to specific arguments that don't align exactly with yours (like you did mine and Dras'), the less you're going to get anyone investing time into responding to you. In fact, I almost didn't respond this time, because you've done this to me twice before; I won't make that mistake again. Which is to the detriment of the community as a whole, that we can't discuss things of significance to the game like grown-ups.

"I think the Fireball is basically an upgraded Rhymerball"

No it isn't, it is still a Ryhmer Ball, just with new ships (there was never a "set" Rhymer Ball)

It isn't a drink or spicy candy, it is a Ryhmer Ball. No clue who thought it was clever to drop the namesake of the thing and replace it with the latest flavor of the month.

No.

I'm done.

There is no reciprocated respect.

You lost that respect the second you put words into my mouth. Next.

Thus, I'm expecting, or at least hoping people either agree or disagree with me with the context that I've provided, or strong arguments of their own.

The more you attack people and respond aggressively or dismissively to specific arguments that don't align exactly with yours (like you did mine and Dras'), the less you're going to get anyone investing time into responding to you. In fact, I almost didn't respond this time, because you've done this to me twice before; I won't make that mistake again. Which is to the detriment of the community as a whole, that we can't discuss things of significance to the game like grown-ups.

Good. Maybe you'll find stronger arguments in the future and not talk about Wave 1 like it actually had something to do with what we're dealing with now.

HERO, you are being extremely combative. Please cool down. Come back in 10 minutes or so and reread things.

I am asking as a person who respects your opinion, go calm down.

No.

I'm done.

There is no reciprocated respect.

You lost that respect the second you put words into my mouth. Next.

Thus, I'm expecting, or at least hoping people either agree or disagree with me with the context that I've provided, or strong arguments of their own.

The more you attack people and respond aggressively or dismissively to specific arguments that don't align exactly with yours (like you did mine and Dras'), the less you're going to get anyone investing time into responding to you. In fact, I almost didn't respond this time, because you've done this to me twice before; I won't make that mistake again. Which is to the detriment of the community as a whole, that we can't discuss things of significance to the game like grown-ups.

Good. Maybe you'll find stronger arguments in the future and not talk about Wave 1 like it actually had something to do with what we're dealing with now.

Come on man!! Not cool.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Hero has always been a, special guy. I could link threads but I am lazy and really not terribly concerned with it as he does a good enough job opening his mouth and removing all doubt.

His BOLS articles are good for a chuckle though.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Hero has always been a, special guy. I could link threads but I am lazy and really not terribly concerned with it as he does a good enough job opening his mouth and removing all doubt.

His BOLS articles are good for a chuckle though.

Also not cool!! Can we please get above the level of insulting those we disagree with? Otherwise this thread might as well be locked.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Hero has always been a, special guy. I could link threads but I am lazy and really not terribly concerned with it as he does a good enough job opening his mouth and removing all doubt.

His BOLS articles are good for a chuckle though.

The problem with this "fireball" is that you're dumping a TON of points into that rogue keyword that doesn't help you at all in fighter engagements. All other things being equal, fighter squadron without rogue will beat an equivalent points value of rogues every time, because you're paying for that flexibility on the rogue.

I have played against it on Vassal, and similar builds IRL, and it's not that hard to beat it with a well-constructed fighter defense. Not nearly as bad as, for example, the Rieekan Aces list. You use the same anti-squadron tactics you use for every other squadron build, jumping in to target Dengar (who has to be in the thick of it to apply Intel) and dictating the terms of the engagement by striking first and striking hard. As someone else pointed out, Vader and Dengar are the lynchpins here. Once they're gone, this build falls apart. And 4x4 blue dice (FC A-wings, X-wing, FC B-wings, interceptors, etc) will reliably alpha strike either one. Sure, you'll eat a round of return fire, but at that point you're already dictating the terms of the engagement, preventing them from concentrating return fire and enabling your defenders to survive long enough to gut the rest of the ball.

Rhymer was never an issue in Wave 1

Not sure about your meta in Wave 1, but in every game I played it was WAY more of an issue than it is now, or than your "fireball" is. Specifically because you had to have a fighter defense to beat it, but that squadron defense was wasted points against ship-heavy builds, and ship-heavy builds were so common, the presence of the Rhymer ball was a HUGE deal that impacted my meta much more than the GenCon special did. Now, squadrons are commonplace, so strong defenses against them are rarely wasted points.

This.

The Fireball will tear through all-ship lists.

It can easily be rendered moot by a reasonable fighter screen.

It is utterly disassembled by high fighter count with squadron commands.

I guess I had too high of expectations when I made the thread. I was really looking forward to people that are able to pull their weight in an argument.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Hero has always been a, special guy. I could link threads but I am lazy and really not terribly concerned with it as he does a good enough job opening his mouth and removing all doubt.

His BOLS articles are good for a chuckle though.

Considering you just advocated going 5-7 ship MSU vs. a Fireball, that's indeed comical. 10 points for effort.

The problem with this "fireball" is that you're dumping a TON of points into that rogue keyword that doesn't help you at all in fighter engagements. All other things being equal, fighter squadron without rogue will beat an equivalent points value of rogues every time, because you're paying for that flexibility on the rogue.

I have played against it on Vassal, and similar builds IRL, and it's not that hard to beat it with a well-constructed fighter defense. Not nearly as bad as, for example, the Rieekan Aces list. You use the same anti-squadron tactics you use for every other squadron build, jumping in to target Dengar (who has to be in the thick of it to apply Intel) and dictating the terms of the engagement by striking first and striking hard. As someone else pointed out, Vader and Dengar are the lynchpins here. Once they're gone, this build falls apart. And 4x4 blue dice (FC A-wings, X-wing, FC B-wings, interceptors, etc) will reliably alpha strike either one. Sure, you'll eat a round of return fire, but at that point you're already dictating the terms of the engagement, preventing them from concentrating return fire and enabling your defenders to survive long enough to gut the rest of the ball.

Rhymer was never an issue in Wave 1

Not sure about your meta in Wave 1, but in every game I played it was WAY more of an issue than it is now, or than your "fireball" is. Specifically because you had to have a fighter defense to beat it, but that squadron defense was wasted points against ship-heavy builds, and ship-heavy builds were so common, the presence of the Rhymer ball was a HUGE deal that impacted my meta much more than the GenCon special did. Now, squadrons are commonplace, so strong defenses against them are rarely wasted points.

This.

The Fireball will tear through all-ship lists.

It can easily be rendered moot by a reasonable fighter screen.

It is utterly disassembled by high fighter count with squadron commands.

What is reasonable?

And what is with all the talk of squadron commands? Are you under the assumption that the opposing player is not issuing commands of his own and just letting his Firesprays die?

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Hero has always been a, special guy. I could link threads but I am lazy and really not terribly concerned with it as he does a good enough job opening his mouth and removing all doubt.

His BOLS articles are good for a chuckle though.

Not needed or wanted.

100% Agree it isn't wanted, but it is needed. And while we are at it you are on the razors edge too friend. Granted you have chilled way out recently but there is a difference between being confident in your ability to push little plastic figurines around a table and being a, well I'll let you come up with a fun word to describe it, there are plenty to choose from.

This isn't about attacking people or lowering myself to their level, it is about calling BS.

These kinds of people don't respond to anything. Hero will continue to be a (whatever word you just chose) until people start ignoring him. Kind of like a troll but he actually buys in to his Armada Jesus moniker or whatever he thinks himself.

So, if I can do anything to illuminate that and get people on board with the whole "not worth my time" notion maybe the community can speed his departure by a month or so.

Could be a Christmas miracle.

I guess I had too high of expectations when I made the thread. I was really looking forward to people that are able to pull their weight in an argument.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Hero has always been a, special guy. I could link threads but I am lazy and really not terribly concerned with it as he does a good enough job opening his mouth and removing all doubt.

His BOLS articles are good for a chuckle though.

Considering you just advocated going 5-7 ship MSU vs. a Fireball, that's indeed comical. 10 points for effort.

Part of the problem, you are looking for an arguement and not a discussion.

Another part of the problem, you just days ago said a 3 A wing list was fine, I mentioned it wasn't, which proceeded to confuse the crap out of you. So you are in fact full of it and anything you have to say about this game is simply you regurgitating things you have seen or read somewhere else.

Thirdly, your CR90 BOLS article was a giant wall of nonsense that ended with "So to conclude, you should take a CR90 with it's two best upgrades" like anyone with a basic grasp of the English language couldn't puzzle out for themselves after being beaten about the head and neck with a heavy rock.

Fourthly, Merry Christmas. I would give you a hug and sandwich if we were local to each other. You seem like you could benefit from a hug and a sandwich.

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Hero has always been a, special guy. I could link threads but I am lazy and really not terribly concerned with it as he does a good enough job opening his mouth and removing all doubt.

His BOLS articles are good for a chuckle though.

Not needed or wanted.

100% Agree it isn't wanted, but it is needed. And while we are at it you are on the razors edge too friend. Granted you have chilled way out recently but there is a difference between being confident in your ability to push little plastic figurines around a table and being a, well I'll let you come up with a fun word to describe it, there are plenty to choose from.

This isn't about attacking people or lowering myself to their level, it is about calling BS.

These kinds of people don't respond to anything. Hero will continue to be a (whatever word you just chose) until people start ignoring him. Kind of like a troll but he actually buys in to his Armada Jesus moniker or whatever he thinks himself.

So, if I can do anything to illuminate that and get people on board with the whole "not worth my time" notion maybe the community can speed his departure by a month or so.

Could be a Christmas miracle.

And then there's people like you who are suggesting a 5-7 ship list against a Fireball with more threat range, survivability and damage output.

I'd rather be sharp-tongued than outright stupid. Nice try though.

Can we all calm down and be merry? Tis' the season after all.

As far as this "fireball" (Im with Darkfine that it is still a rhymer ball), easiest way I can see to counter is just normal squadrons as has been pointed out.

Also, while intel is very strong, it is not without weakness. Intel only works within range 1 of the squadron that has it. You can very easily move your squadrons so you are within range 1 of the Firespray and be outside of the range of Intel, if they want to free that squadron up, they need to move the Intel fighter closer to your squadron, which can cause him to then be out of range of others and those other fighters may then be tied up.

Sometimes you just have to approach certain situations a different way than you normally would.

*Eats popcorn*

*Eats popcorn*

This thread got uglier than a rhymerball vs an all ship list real fast...

HERE ARE MY TEW CENTS! [insert pointless insults and arguing here]

I have gradually evolved to using a "middle of the road" version of the rhymerball, I recognized that a powerful alpha strike can take one apart so I have gone to somewhere in the middle, less guaranteed anti-ship and more "thorny" vs squads

Using Dengar, Howl, Soontir, Darth to create a painful set of choices for attacking squadrons. Keep in mind dengar adds a counter to everyone and howl gives an extra counter die to those with swarm. Additionally I put soontir out front with vader and as you HAVE to hit vader first you take auto damage from soontir. A clever opponent used the obstruction denial of obstacles to help mitigate this as Escort is dependent on engagement and you arent engaged if you are obstructed. This is also a good way to target dengar without having to deal with Vader too. I guess thats a caveat for both those seeking to beat a RB and those taking one, obstacles and their placement can have a big impact on the inevitable squadron furball!

Our meta has also started veering towards things like X-Wings, they have the versatility to both be solid anti-squad and pesky bombers. B-wings with the Speedy bomber title on the MC80 are also surprisingly effective if well used.

Personally I see the "all ship" doctrine this game slipped into as a travesty and I'm glad that its coming away from that.

Yes, its a bit unbalanced at the moment (maybe..) but I think I have a pretty solid idea that wave 3 will fix or mitigate some of that. Expect to see red-dice anti-fighter frigates. You heard it here first folks.

Can we all calm down and be merry? Tis' the season after all.

As far as this "fireball" (Im with Darkfine that it is still a rhymer ball), easiest way I can see to counter is just normal squadrons as has been pointed out.

Also, while intel is very strong, it is not without weakness. Intel only works within range 1 of the squadron that has it. You can very easily move your squadrons so you are within range 1 of the Firespray and be outside of the range of Intel, if they want to free that squadron up, they need to move the Intel fighter closer to your squadron, which can cause him to then be out of range of others and those other fighters may then be tied up.

Sometimes you just have to approach certain situations a different way than you normally would.

Sure. I will say that I have been overly aggressive in this thread, and I apologize, specifically to Drag and Ardhnehel. Not to Darkfine though, you gotta be kidding me.

You guys have to understand the frustration when people are taking things out of context and putting words in my mouth. It's utterly disrespectful, especially for someone who took the time and effort to write and explain his position, gathered stats and provided snaps, just to have what he had to say summarized into "the sky is falling". Give me a break.

Now to your point,

http://i.imgur.com/LYqEeL8.jpg

The reason why I said originally that I think more squadrons are needed; meaning greater than 4 (which I have tried and utilized to good effect), that tying things up are indeed no longer an option. Intel simply gives squadrons too much flexibility in movement and because of that, they can keep on performing what their intended purpose is (which in this case, refers to wholesale destruction of your ships from huge threat ranges).

I played a game last night, one of the 10? or so games that I've played against Fireball variants (120+ point squadrons), and even though I was able to hold off half of the Fireball for 4 turns before Tycho and A-Wings were wiped out, I've come to the realization that you just gotta go hunting. More dice, more squadrons, more points for AS, I'm thinking at least 6 ships. For Imperials, I think they can do the job a lot easier. Dengar, Howl with 4x Interceptors will alpha-strike/curb most squadron lists into the ground, but for Rebels, I'm finding a much harder time.

I'm thinking about going Jan, Dutch, Wedge, Tycho and 3 As, since i don't think straight A-Wings work. A-Wings work in the beginning because of their speed to setup a diamond formation around the ball, forcing Dengar to relocate to one area and exposing the other area to being locked engaged (see photo). A-Wings will hopefully hold up the formation for one round so Jan, Dutch and Wedge can get in there and start doing the good work. Jan keeps the A-Wings around for longer, Dutch disables key pieces like Dengar and Rhymer, and Wedge just smites them down.

Hero, take it down a notch bud. You know I like your analysis, but, as has been said, you're veering way too far into the personal attack range.

As to the topic at hand, Rebels do indeed have it harder in trying to dismantle the Fireball. I've done it, but it's not particularly easy. First of all, you have to accept that you will have to weather at least one round of fire. You can mitigate it to a degree with good maneuver, but some of it is almost certainly going to get through.

Second, Dutch has been crucial for me in combating the Fireball. I played a few games without him, but I don't think I can do it again. He's just too valuable. Wedge is a good battle buddy to take with him, but not entirely necessary. I've gone away from using Adar in favor of an A-Wing. I'm playing with downgrading Wedge to a regular X-Wing and upgrading the A-Wing to Tycho. I'm torn on which I prefer. Tycho lives longer, Wedge kills faster. Since the Fireball tends not to use squadron commands (if you do, you're paying points for an ability you're not using), you can often alpha strike and activate a critical portion of the ball.

The first target, in the this specific case, is Vader since you really don't have a choice. With Jan, Dutch, Wedge, and an A-Wing, he goes down pretty easy. Even if he does survive, he's not going anywhere or shoot back (unless Dutch whiffs). One way or another Dengar is now exposed. The next turn is all about taking down Dengar. He's the lynch pin in the whole ball. Once he's down, the ball is stuck.

That still leaves the rest of the ball to deal with, but at this point it doesn't matter. They now have to chew threw Wedge, then Jan and an A-Wing, all the while dealing with Dutch activating a Firespray per turn. You won't kill the ball, but you've done the next best thing: neutralized their ability to effect the game. Three anti-squadron is good, but it's not going to be able to climb out of that tarpit in time to have any further impact.

I've done this TTP to three Fireballs thus far, including one close to the large one you describe above (regular Advanced instead of Vader). The key is to go for a tarpit instead of the kill. Vader and Dengar is easy enough to chew through on your own, but Firesprays take too long to kill. I've found it better to shift focus once Dengar is down. At that point, you no longer need to toss squadron commands to the fighter group and can focus to your main engagement tool. For me, that's the four B-Wings that have bypassed the ball to engage enemy capital ships. For someone else, that's probably concentrate fire commands.

But you don't have to just "simply tie things up", you can try to bait your opponent into repositioning dengar to cause him to move out of position, giving you an opening. And yes, just a small token of squadrons (1-4) is not going to be much help in wave 2, regardless of whether your opponent is using this squadron build. Which was the whole point that Intel and Grit were added, to make light squadron lists more of a risk (IMO).

In your picture, with your placement of 2 of those A-wings (those on the left hand side and bottom), you tied up vader, rhymer, and 1-3 Firesprays (hard to tell), they cannot move until either those A-wings are gone or Dengar is moved. If your opponent wanted to free those up, he has to move dengar, which if he does, your other A-wings tie up again 2-3 Firesprays and Vader.

But for imperials, there is one squadron that pretty much takes out this whole rhymer ball, IG-2000, ignores both escort and counter, send him right in there and just take out dengar. Now the whole rhymer ball becomes a lot less effective.

For rebels I can't really comment on as I don't have much play experience with rebels.

Hmm that's why I like the idea of a more 'Thorny' Rhymerball, the idea being that if I go up against another rhymerball, I can expect to have an AS advantage.

Throwing Mithel in is a brilliant way of adding some AS, I personally like the idea of throwing in a couple of interceptors and rely more on squadron commands to have an alpha strike advantage.

It also brings to mind the hilarity and awesomeness that was the wave one Interceptor rhymerball.

4x Interceptors

Rhymer

Howl

Flight Controllers.

6 dice interceptors with 3 dice counter and rerolls, once their screen was dead they just plinked some shields with all the medium range blue.

I guess the point is, never leave home without Rhymer?

@Truth

I'm finding the Rebel side of things to be a depressing matter in the form of squadrons lately. I've actually thought about downsizing my MKII from my HO/MKII/TRC90 build to a regular TRC90 just so I can field a significantly fighter force. I think I've already told you about the Rebel Aces list I want to run, and that should be enough to give the Fireball a run for its money. At least it will be very hard to ignore because of all the imposing threats on the other side of the table.

What do you think about generic fighters though? What is the bare minimum points investment you would make in squadrons or squadron-ish upgrades (Flight Controllers..etc) that can be tasked with killing Vader and Dengar? Since those two are the key pieces of making this entire thing work, what do you think?

@kami

Thanks for the reply, but some of the Fireball opponents I've been playing have been quite canny with the placement of Dengar, and when to and where to activate them, and in what order. You see, my friend and I are experienced tournament players who take the squadron phase very seriously these days. I'm talking about millimeter based placement and "do you agree that if.." kind of deal. That's what has to happen if you're going to play against the Fireball. You have to be very precise about how to minimize incoming damage because it throws an unholy amount of anti-ship dice.

Again, I think I suffer from a Rebel perspective. I see no other alternative other than spending a considerable amount of points for squadrons in order to face this new threat. As others have said, Intel made it so tying things down are no longer a viable strategy.

This thread got uglier than a rhymerball vs an all ship list real fast...

HERE ARE MY TEW CENTS! [insert pointless insults and arguing here]

I have gradually evolved to using a "middle of the road" version of the rhymerball, I recognized that a powerful alpha strike can take one apart so I have gone to somewhere in the middle, less guaranteed anti-ship and more "thorny" vs squads

Using Dengar, Howl, Soontir, Darth to create a painful set of choices for attacking squadrons. Keep in mind dengar adds a counter to everyone and howl gives an extra counter die to those with swarm. Additionally I put soontir out front with vader and as you HAVE to hit vader first you take auto damage from soontir. A clever opponent used the obstruction denial of obstacles to help mitigate this as Escort is dependent on engagement and you arent engaged if you are obstructed. This is also a good way to target dengar without having to deal with Vader too. I guess thats a caveat for both those seeking to beat a RB and those taking one, obstacles and their placement can have a big impact on the inevitable squadron furball!

Our meta has also started veering towards things like X-Wings, they have the versatility to both be solid anti-squad and pesky bombers. B-wings with the Speedy bomber title on the MC80 are also surprisingly effective if well used.

Personally I see the "all ship" doctrine this game slipped into as a travesty and I'm glad that its coming away from that.

Yes, its a bit unbalanced at the moment (maybe..) but I think I have a pretty solid idea that wave 3 will fix or mitigate some of that. Expect to see red-dice anti-fighter frigates. You heard it here first folks.

I think IG88 will be big as well as Dutch. We may even see more Adar Tallon together with Dutch to lock down the Advanced and Dengar.