Right, many Imperial players are finding out what Rebel players know all too well - tiny ships pop. A lot.
Good balance for both Raider & MC30, Fluff-wise, makes me happy that the Rebel gambles are bigger and more gamble-er.
Intensify Forward Firepower XV: Romantic Pedantic
I totally get that Motti and two six-point turbolaser upgrades is Vader, but what I want to know is, does everyone hate him? Is R1H4 on an island? Is everyone split? I'm really starting to second guess myself but, of course, machines can never understand the force much less the power of the dark side.
Not by a long shot.
I love Vader.
He takes what is *probably* a devastating shot and makes it *DEFINITELY* a devastating shot.
Even the knowledge that you'll be re-rolling everything you put out can make your opponent play differently.
And also, **** the mathematicians, try him out with Ordnance Experts on Glads and Raiders. Double rerolled black dice are terrifyingly dangerous.
I am in the vader pool.
If you have 4 ships and have Leading shoots (poor man's vader) and Ordnance Experts on every ship you are paying with commander usually more than 36 points.
Vader also lends himself to getting on average 7+ damage. . . it is simply amazing!
As a rebel player I hate Vader ! He's just so **** good:(
As a rebel player I hate Vader ! He's just so **** consistent
Fixed it for you!
Granted, I've only used him once, but I really like Vader too. He turned a LOT of blanks into a very nasty hit on a forward barrage from an ISD. Screed is only ten points cheaper and would've made the same roll still pretty crappy. And as you all have mentioned, it eliminates the need for any re-roll upgrades. The defense token cost is a small price to pay, especially when the turn is half over when you take your shot. Also, you can look at it this way, its a lot easier to stay alive if you kill the enemy ships before they can hit you which Vader makes easier.
I too have been struggling with finding the role of the Raider. I like the idea of the second-line ship you guys mentioned in the podcast. I think that its defensive set-up is completely at odds with the range it is effective in and it doesn't have the Demolisher capability that allows a clean alpha strike. I wish it would've had two braces or one of its titles allowed crits to count on anti-squadron damage. I also really hate that it doesn't have a single spammable card in the lot that isn't in another set (curse you Mc30!!!!). I still think its okay though and can be pretty good as a carrier with Dano's favorite general, Mr. Tarkin (plus it can give you some activation economy).
Vader vs Ackbar!
My two cents. 1.) the R2 bop it exists. Lol
2.) Vader is just too good of a squadron to take as a cmdr.
3.) isd with projection experts. Engineering techs. And a vsd with engineering techs, the title that allows shield loss, and the ion cannons. Any of them. Could be good. Will use Monday.
4.) will we have a New Year's Eve drunken episode? Lol
I need that R2 bop it.
My two cents. 1.) the R2 bop it exists. Lol
2.) Vader is just too good of a squadron to take as a cmdr.
3.) isd with projection experts. Engineering techs. And a vsd with engineering techs, the title that allows shield loss, and the ion cannons. Any of them. Could be good. Will use Monday.
4.) will we have a New Year's Eve drunken episode? Lol
ISD's and VSD's both lack the support team upgrade slot, rendering them unable to take Projection Experts, Engineering Teams or Engine Techs.
My two cents. 1.) the R2 bop it exists. Lol
2.) Vader is just too good of a squadron to take as a cmdr.
3.) isd with projection experts. Engineering techs. And a vsd with engineering techs, the title that allows shield loss, and the ion cannons. Any of them. Could be good. Will use Monday.
4.) will we have a New Year's Eve drunken episode? Lol
ISD's and VSD's both lack the support team upgrade slot, rendering them unable to take Projection Experts, Engineering Teams or Engine Techs.
May be why you have that with a New Years Eve episode? No one will notice you relaxed a few rules along the way.
Didn't have my cards in front of me. Sadface. Couldn't remember what projection exp was.
Guess it's just a dirty rebel trick.
Edited by AltaharaLong time listener, first time commenter. Love the podcast!
However (Vader music) I'm going to take umbrage at the boosted comms = training wheels remarks. What they give you is the ability to outrange red dice easily. Without boosted comms there's an absolutely tiny area where you can command your squadrons where they can shoot the target, whilst the target is out of shooting range of the commanding ship. Realistically an area that's never manageable to pull off in a game. Which boosted comms tho, there's a nice easily navigable area where you can hit the target with squadrons, keep them in command range and not get your commanding ship shot at in return.
That's not training wheels, that's effective use of extended command range to control the engagement into your benefit, allows first strike without moving into range yourself and allows next turn commands to do it again.
Wait wait wait- did we say Boosted Comms were training wheels? I thought we said Wing Commander was?
Also training wheels was not really the best phrase for what we meant to say. You can still participate in a bike race with training wheels on, right? Dunno' then, maybe it was the right phrase - at any rate, all the commanders are fine (I'm taking support officers more and more) but they do always feel like points potentially better spent elsewhere. "If only I could nail the timing on all my commands then I'd not have to use this officer..." Does using them mean you're somehow bad? No. Def not. If someone comes up with a better analogy for it I'll gladly substitute!
Wait wait wait- did we say Boosted Comms were training wheels? I thought we said Wing Commander was?
Having played with Tactical Expert and Wing Commander, I have found them to be great with allowing me to generate a plan but have options so that I am more flexible and not locked into anything.
As the turns go one, the more options I generate and am far better at reacting and forcing my opponent to react.
Wing Commander to an opponent is just like I always have a squadron command coming up next. This in itself can be worth it.
Not training wheels per say, more like luxury upgrades I don't have time for.
Wing Commanders are one of the best upgrades you can buy with a carrier, as it gives you flexibility on high command ships to do other things at times when your squads are engaged and not needing orders. No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, and a 3 command ship relies a lot on trying to guess how the battle will ebb and flow. Being able to never worry about losing out on squadron activations because I figured there would be a lull in the fighter action to slip an Engineering or Nav order in is easily worth 6 points to me.
Edited by Armada JimI've never taken a wing commander and probably never will. As Hero said, it's one of those luxury upgrades that I would rather go without in favor of a higher bid.
Not training wheels per say, more like luxury upgrades I don't have time for.
I've never taken a wing commander and probably never will. As Hero said, it's one of those luxury upgrades that I would rather go without in favor of a higher bid.
I can see this but I don't always want to push that lone TIE Fighter into the list and sometimes using it on just 1 ship is enough.
I don't think it is in league with XI7's and such where you need multiple on them to work
The ability to spam Repair or Maneuver and take a Squadron Command as needed in a carrier build would be great, giving a group of 3/4 squadrons a command that generate 3/4 black or blue damage at a ship will be worth 6 points as would the ability to keep the ship moving or surviving a little longer.
I would certainly consider the card in the right type of fleet rather than write it off.
Oh man, I love how far this has gone!
Yeah dudes, we don't think it's a bad card at all- at least I don't. Our off the cuff calling of them "training wheels" has generated way more discussion than any thought we put into it 
I like the card a lot- in fact it's become my favorite of those 4. That being said, I'm usually too tight on points to squeeze it in
I'm starting to think we all might be expecting too much from the Raider. If you go back and read the preview from September, it pretty exclusively talks about it as an anti-fighter ship--something to support your squadrons. It only talks about it's ship attacking capabilities as an afterthought (as in, it's better at switching from anti-squadron to anti-ship than the same amount of TIE Fighters would be). In fact, when listing its secondary benefits, it even lists activations and commands as benefits before its ability to fire on ships.
Needless to say, while I think we all were hoping for an Imperial CR90, a CR90 the Raider is not. I'm really thinking that it is a true escort ship (and actually suited for the corvette role). It may just want to lamprey along side its papa ISD the whole game, and only come out in certain safe condition. We've been spoiled by the CR90, which really is just a small version of a medium or large ship (as we know them), and it may not be fair to compare the Raider to the CR90.
There seems to be general agreement that, although both have big, black-dice laden side arcs, the MC-30 and the Glad are two very different ships. MC-30 is much more of a specialty ship than the Glad, and you can't/shouldn't plug and play and MC-30 the way you would a Glad. Well, I think if we apply that analogy to the Raider, we'd get Raider:CR90 as MC-30:Glad. That is to say, the Raider is a specialty ship.
Edited by LazorBeemsWing Commanders are one of the best upgrades you can buy with a carrier, as it gives you flexibility on high command ships to do other things at times when your squads are engaged and not needing orders. No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, and a 3 command ship relies a lot on trying to guess how the battle will ebb and flow. Being able to never worry about losing out on squadron activations because I figured there would be a lull in the fighter action to slip an Engineering or Nav order in is easily worth 6 points to me.
Its going to boil down to which commander you like using too. Tarkin and Garm should probably only use weapons liasons because they usually have a surplus of tokens and the liasons cost half as much
Its going to boil down to which commander you like using too. Tarkin and Garm should probably only use weapons liasons because they usually have a surplus of tokens and the liasons cost half as muchWing Commanders are one of the best upgrades you can buy with a carrier, as it gives you flexibility on high command ships to do other things at times when your squads are engaged and not needing orders. No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, and a 3 command ship relies a lot on trying to guess how the battle will ebb and flow. Being able to never worry about losing out on squadron activations because I figured there would be a lull in the fighter action to slip an Engineering or Nav order in is easily worth 6 points to me.
I ranted about this in another thread, but I still think you are a crazy person who is playing into the hands of a skilled opponent if you don't take a Wing Commander on a dedicated carrier...
It's not so much training wheels as a disguise. And who doesn't want to fly a ship with a crazy fake mustache on the front?