Just for some perspective, X-wing at it's most wildly unbalanced is substantially more balanced than any edition of a Games Workshop game that I've played. We can always hope for more balance, but we shouldn't fail to appreciate what we've got.

That's exciting to hear, and better than I expected. The x7 is clearly tough for its cost, but I was concerned that its offense would be subpar in practice.

Are we at a point in the game that 3 red dice with a free action is not considered offensive enough? Or even just 3 red dice, for that matter?

I think that successful builds these days should be more "All Comers" lists, much like the winner at Worlds. Instead of maximizing one type of ship, I think having a variety of effective ships should be the key. If you find an opponent that can beat Tie Defenders with his list (through his own flying, his list, or combo of both), then you will have a hard time winning. I tend to think taking a single Tie Defender with other types of ships is a good option that I'll be looking at.

That's exciting to hear, and better than I expected. The x7 is clearly tough for its cost, but I was concerned that its offense would be subpar in practice.

Are we at a point in the game that 3 red dice with a free action is not considered offensive enough? Or even just 3 red dice, for that matter?

Thats all relative. For 2xIG's 3 red is considered as too low.

as always it depends on the build

just having 2 3-red ships is quite a gamble, which is why IGs stock up 4 dice with mods + IG-88B and crackshot

Just for some perspective, X-wing at it's most wildly unbalanced is substantially more balanced than any edition of a Games Workshop game that I've played. We can always hope for more balance, but we shouldn't fail to appreciate what we've got.

Your just trying to deplete my allocation of likes today aint ya buddy.

40K has atrocious balance because they want you to buy whatever is OP, which just so happens to be a new expensive kit they released.

X-wing isn't perfect but they really try to make everything viable, haven't managed it with missiles and torps yet sadly but they will eventually.

40k is over 20 years old and has never gotten close to x-wings balance, and with how things are heading never will.

Not just 40k. Fantasy is terrible, too.

But Age of Sigmar is in balance just like perfectly.

Are we at a point in the game that 3 red dice with a free action is not considered offensive enough? Or even just 3 red dice, for that matter?

You just have to be very careful how much it effects your total attack volume. Due to things like Evades and Shield Regen, it can be easy to lack the burst damage to put these ships down for good and eventually lose out on the attrition battle.

Colonel Vessery (35)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Tractor Beam (1)

TIE/D (0)

Rexler Brath (37)

Juke (2)

TIE/x7 (-2)

"Omega Leader" (21)

Juke (2)

Comm Relay (3)

Total: 100

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Ok, so I played this last night and, just, wow. I played against a dual Scum Firespray, Boba/Kath list. On the first pass, I screwed up and lost the FO. After that, though, Vessery just ruled. Brath was giving him the locks, and he just mopped up. By the end, all my opponent was able to do was strip Vessery of his shields. Brath was still at full health. Using the tractor to reduce the agility first, and the ability to re-roll two attacks with the target lock, was just mean. This would have been even more silly if I had not lost the FO (due to bad rolls, poor flying, and a Direct Hit). Great list and one I plan to fly again and again.

Just for some perspective, X-wing at it's most wildly unbalanced is substantially more balanced than any edition of a Games Workshop game that I've played. We can always hope for more balance, but we shouldn't fail to appreciate what we've got.

Your just trying to deplete my allocation of likes today aint ya buddy.

40K has atrocious balance because they want you to buy whatever is OP, which just so happens to be a new expensive kit they released.

X-wing isn't perfect but they really try to make everything viable, haven't managed it with missiles and torps yet sadly but they will eventually.

40k is over 20 years old and has never gotten close to x-wings balance, and with how things are heading never will.

LRS should provide enough action economy & points efficiency to make some missiles & torpedoes competitive on bombers (some of the munitions cards will never be viable because, hey, the game was young when they were printed and mistakes were made).

Miranda can use it to get a 5 dice opening attack that's either focused with a nice bonus modifier (Conc Missile) or a 5 dice opening attack that's both focused, TL'd and ignores evade tokens (Homing Missile).

You can make it more points efficient with Extra Munitions too, although using the other token effectively would be tricky (SLAM seems like it may make it workable, though).

Miranda can use it to get a 5 dice opening attack that's either focused with a nice bonus modifier (Conc Missile) or a 5 dice opening attack that's both focused, TL'd and ignores evade tokens (Homing Missile).

6 dice if you add Jan to the list...

To be fair, we're talking a ship that costs the same at PS1 as Vader does at PS9. That it matches action economy and an extra hit point probably isn't the craziest sounding plan in the world...

But balance is tricky. A point either way is all it takes...

Maybe an all-/x7 squad could do some form of new tactics where they zoom in for one round, then completely disengage and set up for another joust without receiving any fire. It's hard to imagine this actually playing out in-game, however. Does anyone have any examples/replays of such a strategy existing?

I'm breaking radio silence on the new Defender expansion for the first time. I'll probably make a separate post later. The MathWing numbers peg the PS1 Delta/x7 as having a jousting efficiency of about 102% for reasonable assumptions of how often you can get the free evade to trigger.

What are those assumptions on how often the ability triggers?

I wonder whether initially this appears very strong, but as people learn to fly against the x7 defenders, they will be better able to anticipate its moves, given that it wants to take a speed 3-5 maneuver, hence making it harder to consistently make those moves and end up with a good shot. That's pure speculation on my part, however, as I haven't flown with or against one yet.

To be fair, we're talking a ship that costs the same at PS1 as Vader does at PS9. That it matches action economy and an extra hit point probably isn't the craziest sounding plan in the world...

But balance is tricky. A point either way is all it takes...

It does have an extra red die. That's pretty big. Sure, Vader has ATC, but then he's down an action.

There are a few different approaches that you can use, and they all converge to around about the same net durability. I'll try and get around to a more complete post next week.

I figured on a 75% evade per turn rate. There follows some other more complicated math involved for fixed damage mitigation per turn, that isn't discussed in my MathWing 2.0 post. But you can still arrive at about the same value from even MathWing 1.0.

Re Vader: his jousting efficiency is actually already very very good even without considering that he is PS9.

I figured on a 75% evade per turn rate.

Hmm, that sounds a bit high to me; I would have figured around 50%. But I've only rarely flown with or against defenders in the past, and certainly the 4K is/can be used a lot. (I wonder how hard it is to try *always* flying the defender with 3-5 speed moves? An interesting exercise, perhaps).

It would be nice to see the PS1 x7 defender's jousting efficiency as a function of what the evade rate is, or at least a few different values for its efficiency if one gets a different evade per turn rate.

I have been getting closer to 90% in my games so far.

I have been getting closer to 90% in my games so far.

Colonel Vessery (35)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Tractor Beam (1)

Twin Ion Engine Mk. II (1)

TIE/D (0)

The Inquisitor (25)

Juke (2)

XX-23 S-Thread Tracers (1)

Autothrusters (2)

TIE/v1 (1)

Commander Alozen (25)

Veteran Instincts (1)

Advanced Targeting Computer (1)

Engine Upgrade (4)

TIE/x1 (0)

Total: 100

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I had posted this in another thread. The idea is to have an all PS 8 list that mutually assists each other. Vessery benefits from target locks the other ships also badly want and Alozen gets for free. The other ships benefit from the tractor beam shots Vessery fires.

Alozen with VI is only PS7

Ok:

Rexler/x7 + LW = 37 points

Just let buzz him around and if it happens to get a lucky attack roll, use the focus for his ability.

Pairs well with 3 Tempest + AC

This is the list I am going to try out:

I love how this promotes a shift towards lower PS with Vessery having the strongest ability at a maximum of PS8, who will often be run at 6. Rexler will also be nice, but he really wants Predator so he can keep his focus, so no PS10 here, either. The Defender being so good at jousting is shocking on first glance,certainly, but I am not too afraid for now. Tomorrow I might get to proxy the titles, I am pretty curious.

I love how this promotes a shift towards lower PS with Vessery having the strongest ability at a maximum of PS8, who will often be run at 6. Rexler will also be nice, but he really wants Predator so he can keep his focus, so no PS10 here, either. The Defender being so good at jousting is shocking on first glance,certainly, but I am not too afraid for now.Tomorrow I might get to proxy the titles, I am pretty curious.

You will be, you will be.

Nah, if it is too crazy (Defender-Wing anyone?) I get to fly Defenders, which is a win in my book!