Pretty much. Upthread, MJ noted that he used a 50% activation rate of Vessery to calculate his efficiency. That sounds like a pretty reasonable estimation, but it's going to vary wildly depending on the opponent's squad. You can really stack the deck for Col V, but then you're often introducing inefficiencies in your own squad, so I'm not sure if it's worth it in the long run. Predator all the way for me. It's much better, but then it's also more expensive and uses the EPT, so there you go.

Pretty much. Upthread, MJ noted that he used a 50% activation rate of Vessery to calculate his efficiency. That sounds like a pretty reasonable estimation, but it's going to vary wildly depending on the opponent's squad. You can really stack the deck for Col V, but then you're often introducing inefficiencies in your own squad, so I'm not sure if it's worth it in the long run. Predator all the way for me. It's much better, but then it's also more expensive and uses the EPT, so there you go.

Yeah, its kind of funny that Rexler kind of needs predator in order to compete with Vessery for damage output, but that eats up his EPT. But even with his EPT slot wide open, Vessery feels like his options are limited: VI, crack, outmanoeuvre, now perhaps ruthlessness and there's a corner case for lone wolf. That's about it. I could see decoy if you wanted Vess to carry tractor beam and you had another ship in the squad with higher PS, but that's going to be pretty rare...

So Rex is PS8 with solid damage output vs Vess at PS8 (VI) and solid damage output. Or Vess takes something else, is PS6 in comparison, but has a bit of a niche (outmanoeuvre + ion, crack/ruthlessness + tractor) or whatever else you can come up with to make him different...

Pretty much. Upthread, MJ noted that he used a 50% activation rate of Vessery to calculate his efficiency. That sounds like a pretty reasonable estimation, but it's going to vary wildly depending on the opponent's squad. You can really stack the deck for Col V, but then you're often introducing inefficiencies in your own squad, so I'm not sure if it's worth it in the long run. Predator all the way for me. It's much better, but then it's also more expensive and uses the EPT, so there you go.

Yeah, its kind of funny that Rexler kind of needs predator in order to compete with Vessery for damage output, but that eats up his EPT. But even with his EPT slot wide open, Vessery feels like his options are limited: VI, crack, outmanoeuvre, now perhaps ruthlessness and there's a corner case for lone wolf. That's about it. I could see decoy if you wanted Vess to carry tractor beam and you had another ship in the squad with higher PS, but that's going to be pretty rare...

So Rex is PS8 with solid damage output vs Vess at PS8 (VI) and solid damage output. Or Vess takes something else, is PS6 in comparison, but has a bit of a niche (outmanoeuvre + ion, crack/ruthlessness + tractor) or whatever else you can come up with to make him different...

The way I look at it is that Vessery does have more options but they are all less optimal, either because of their own cost or because if you're getting his ability, you're overlapping.

Pretty much. Upthread, MJ noted that he used a 50% activation rate of Vessery to calculate his efficiency. That sounds like a pretty reasonable estimation, but it's going to vary wildly depending on the opponent's squad. You can really stack the deck for Col V, but then you're often introducing inefficiencies in your own squad, so I'm not sure if it's worth it in the long run. Predator all the way for me. It's much better, but then it's also more expensive and uses the EPT, so there you go.

Yeah, its kind of funny that Rexler kind of needs predator in order to compete with Vessery for damage output, but that eats up his EPT. But even with his EPT slot wide open, Vessery feels like his options are limited: VI, crack, outmanoeuvre, now perhaps ruthlessness and there's a corner case for lone wolf. That's about it. I could see decoy if you wanted Vess to carry tractor beam and you had another ship in the squad with higher PS, but that's going to be pretty rare...

So Rex is PS8 with solid damage output vs Vess at PS8 (VI) and solid damage output. Or Vess takes something else, is PS6 in comparison, but has a bit of a niche (outmanoeuvre + ion, crack/ruthlessness + tractor) or whatever else you can come up with to make him different...

The way I look at it is that Vessery does have more options but they are all less optimal, either because of their own cost or because if you're getting his ability, you're overlapping.

I don't know if its less optimal per se. After trying DVD (with Vessery using ruthlessness, TIE/D and tractor beam) I think he is very effective in that build, moreso than Rexler would be (the PS difference being less important there). So I guess it depends...

I'm assuming you meant Rexlar. Because Vessery is, hands down, THE Defender pilot.

No, I'm keeping Rex. Vessery is amazing if you have an efficient spotter, but in a 2-Defender list, the second Defender is only an efficient spotter against certain kinds of targets (big, fat things), which are not targets I've traditionally had trouble with using Defenders. PS8 for Rex is pretty meaningful, as there are a lot of quality PS8 aces. Even Steele's PS7 is meaningful. He trumps Vessery, which will matter, and he trumps non-VI Brobots, which also matter. I can go with VI on him, which makes him a useful PS9, or Predator, which is a less efficient, but far more flexible Vessery.

Listen to this man.

Theres solid argument for vess with the new title but [at least currently] he has hidden problems. Despite the intention to focus fire vess tends to tax a list and control its design. Rex does neither. Vess also suffers more against plenty of builds that rex just doesn't. The misconception is that vess' ability is free but it's not. It's symbiotic and borderline stealing at times.

IME vess is worse because he wants higher PS so that 'free' EPT slot isn't really free and theres the conundrum of not wanting to spend pts on redundant upgrades like predator but then finding you can't paint the target you want so you end up going unmodified or else shooting 'targets of opportunity'. These are things any good opponent WILL exploit. Brath with pred/hlc is straight beast mode.

On the bright side vess is essentially 5 pts cheaper.

with the release of FOs, Vess' ability is far less of a chore

Vess + Omega Leader, bros for life

them + long range bombers are going to make life much easier for the big D

as opposed to Rex, who might as well not have an ability (focus is kind of important)

Going with just two defenders I think vessery is not good simply because he crushes the other defender's actions. Rex with x7 and predator for 38 points seems pretty gross and awesome. Vessery is amazing if you can pair him with a ship that doesn't spend target locks (Vader atc) and a support ship that is worth its points even while freely painting for Vessery (palp shuttle). The problem really is that Vessery has such a good ability you can easily trap yourself into a really terrible spot by forcing it always on.

with the release of FOs, Vess' ability is far less of a chore

Vess + Omega Leader, bros for life

them + long range bombers are going to make life much easier for the big D

as opposed to Rex, who might as well not have an ability (focus is kind of important)

This is true since you could always just put the default EPT on vess and get a cheaper rex more often than not [although it could be argued that rex can hit ps 10 I suppose].

Aaaand thats where I'm digging maarek stele. PS 7 is solid and his ability doesn't require an action or a BFF but once those shields are down the ass kicking really starts to intensify.

PS8 vs PS7 matters, but if you're looking to run beatstick Defender, Steele isn't a bad choice.

Ya exactly.

I'm not down on vess hes been really good to me. I just think brath is being sold a little short lately. Meanwhile maarek is my new hotness.

Pretty much. Upthread, MJ noted that he used a 50% activation rate of Vessery to calculate his efficiency. That sounds like a pretty reasonable estimation, but it's going to vary wildly depending on the opponent's squad. You can really stack the deck for Col V, but then you're often introducing inefficiencies in your own squad, so I'm not sure if it's worth it in the long run. Predator all the way for me. It's much better, but then it's also more expensive and uses the EPT, so there you go.

This is why I like three x7 Defenders at PS6 with Craskshot all around. The x7 title gives Vessery the durability to stick around longer than 2 rounds. Typically the opponent will focus Vessery first, so you play the engagement position game and keep him in the back of your three Defenders. In the meantime, you know you can get the TL for Vessery in the first round. Then Crackshot gets you another 2-3 damage on top of it. You maximize Vessery's ability by keeping him alive and dealing a massive alpha strike. Paul Heaver has been saying, the best Alpha Strike is Crackshot. In this case it's two modified 3 dice attacks, plus a TL+F modified 3 dice attack, plus crackshot on all three.

It feels very similar to BroBots, in that it is a "pure" squad with movement shenanigans, but also good durability and reliable damage output. Most ships can't operate well as "pure" squads in a competitive environment because there are typically counters. Howlrunner TIE Swarm, BroBots and Defenders feel like they are the exceptions that have enough raw power that they can potentially brute-force their way through the counters.

I don't know why I'm the only one rocking PTL rex I keep singing his praises but no one listens "oh he hasn't got green turns hobo" total none issue with mk.ii green one banks there's very little he can't catch in arc.

So hard being ahead of the curve.

Still food for dodgers, although white-K helps great deal, it's SUPER PREDICTABLE

Well, sort of. The Defender has pretty much every single move on the dial available to it, and if you aren't afraid to exploit that at the cost of the occasional action, you can catch people off guard pretty easily. Now, with the free evade and green banks, doing just that is much easier than it's ever been.

When they expect a k turn one bank instead they'll leave themselves open.

Or go after a different target using your superior speed.

Pretty much. Upthread, MJ noted that he used a 50% activation rate of Vessery to calculate his efficiency. That sounds like a pretty reasonable estimation, but it's going to vary wildly depending on the opponent's squad. You can really stack the deck for Col V, but then you're often introducing inefficiencies in your own squad, so I'm not sure if it's worth it in the long run. Predator all the way for me. It's much better, but then it's also more expensive and uses the EPT, so there you go.

This is why I like three x7 Defenders at PS6 with Craskshot all around. The x7 title gives Vessery the durability to stick around longer than 2 rounds. Typically the opponent will focus Vessery first, so you play the engagement position game and keep him in the back of your three Defenders. In the meantime, you know you can get the TL for Vessery in the first round. Then Crackshot gets you another 2-3 damage on top of it. You maximize Vessery's ability by keeping him alive and dealing a massive alpha strike. Paul Heaver has been saying, the best Alpha Strike is Crackshot. In this case it's two modified 3 dice attacks, plus a TL+F modified 3 dice attack, plus crackshot on all three.

It feels very similar to BroBots, in that it is a "pure" squad with movement shenanigans, but also good durability and reliable damage output. Most ships can't operate well as "pure" squads in a competitive environment because there are typically counters. Howlrunner TIE Swarm, BroBots and Defenders feel like they are the exceptions that have enough raw power that they can potentially brute-force their way through the counters.

For the record, I think the Defender Crackshot swarm us a great place for Vessery because the points work and the PS works. He operates perfectly well as just a PS 6 Crack Shot carrier in that list, and if he happens to be firing at the same target as a buddy, more the better.

Similar to what you've observed, I've been saying for a long time that even if Defenders aren't that efficient, they really don't have hard counters. Now they're efficient, too.

Still food for dodgers, although white-K helps great deal, it's SUPER PREDICTABLE

Well, sort of. The Defender has pretty much every single move on the dial available to it, and if you aren't afraid to exploit that at the cost of the occasional action, you can catch people off guard pretty easily. Now, with the free evade and green banks, doing just that is much easier than it's ever been.

or, more simply, you ion the prick

who's predictable now!?

Pretty much. Upthread, MJ noted that he used a 50% activation rate of Vessery to calculate his efficiency. That sounds like a pretty reasonable estimation, but it's going to vary wildly depending on the opponent's squad. You can really stack the deck for Col V, but then you're often introducing inefficiencies in your own squad, so I'm not sure if it's worth it in the long run. Predator all the way for me. It's much better, but then it's also more expensive and uses the EPT, so there you go.

This is why I like three x7 Defenders at PS6 with Craskshot all around. The x7 title gives Vessery the durability to stick around longer than 2 rounds. Typically the opponent will focus Vessery first, so you play the engagement position game and keep him in the back of your three Defenders. In the meantime, you know you can get the TL for Vessery in the first round. Then Crackshot gets you another 2-3 damage on top of it. You maximize Vessery's ability by keeping him alive and dealing a massive alpha strike. Paul Heaver has been saying, the best Alpha Strike is Crackshot. In this case it's two modified 3 dice attacks, plus a TL+F modified 3 dice attack, plus crackshot on all three.

It feels very similar to BroBots, in that it is a "pure" squad with movement shenanigans, but also good durability and reliable damage output. Most ships can't operate well as "pure" squads in a competitive environment because there are typically counters. Howlrunner TIE Swarm, BroBots and Defenders feel like they are the exceptions that have enough raw power that they can potentially brute-force their way through the counters.

For the record, I think the Defender Crackshot swarm us a great place for Vessery because the points work and the PS works. He operates perfectly well as just a PS 6 Crack Shot carrier in that list, and if he happens to be firing at the same target as a buddy, more the better.

Similar to what you've observed, I've been saying for a long time that even if Defenders aren't that efficient, they really don't have hard counters. Now they're efficient, too.

Hard counters usually only appear to sqauds/ships that see a lot of play. I can think of some hard counters to a Vessery built squad along with some counters to a squad the focuses on the evade title.

Are they really hard counters or are they speedbumps? To a degree counters are structural. Fel has 3 HP, so Vader on a Decimator is an extremely hard counter, and Gunner on a hard hitting ship taxes him way beyond its points. Both of these items are pretty solid against most squads in the game, too. I don't think something like that exists for Defenders, and I doubt they'll reach Fel levels even with the new stuff.

Are they really hard counters or are they speedbumps? To a degree counters are structural. Fel has 3 HP, so Vader on a Decimator is an extremely hard counter, and Gunner on a hard hitting ship taxes him way beyond its points. Both of these items are pretty solid against most squads in the game, too. I don't think something like that exists for Defenders, and I doubt they'll reach Fel levels even with the new stuff.

Well, by that standard, I think we could make the case that there are very few things have *hard* counters in this game. Almost nothing is going to pull a ship off that quickly, (which is a good thing) and not much means an "auto-lose" for a ship once it hits a certain level of health.

Okay, that example was probably too much. What about Obsidian swarm vs TLT Y-wings? I don't see anything that lopsided against Defenders, but time will tell.

Okay, that example was probably too much. What about Obsidian swarm vs TLT Y-wings? I don't see anything that lopsided against Defenders, but time will tell.

Dallas Parker's Obsidian Swarm lost to 4 Y-wing TLT's in Top 16. It's not as strong of a counter as you may think. Ed on the podcast ran into the same thing during his testing for Worlds. He was going to take an Obsidian Swarm but found that it actually didn't do as well as he thought it would vs Thug Life.

I stand corrected. I guess that initial range 3 shot against 2-AGI y-wings is probably a bad turn for the swarm.

I stand corrected. I guess that initial range 3 shot against 2-AGI y-wings is probably a bad turn for the swarm.

I still haven't gotten a full breakdown from Dallas on why he lost that game. I know it went to time and he lost 87-75. One Obsidian left vs one Y-wing left.

I stand corrected. I guess that initial range 3 shot against 2-AGI y-wings is probably a bad turn for the swarm.

I still haven't gotten a full breakdown from Dallas on why he lost that game. I know it went to time and he lost 87-75. One Obsidian left vs one Y-wing left.

That's rough. Obsidian probably wins that eventually assuming it was near the Y-wing when time was called. If you just follow the Y, Barrel Roll gets you in the blind spot most of the time.

I stand corrected. I guess that initial range 3 shot against 2-AGI y-wings is probably a bad turn for the swarm.

I still haven't gotten a full breakdown from Dallas on why he lost that game. I know it went to time and he lost 87-75. One Obsidian left vs one Y-wing left.

That's rough. Obsidian probably wins that eventually assuming it was near the Y-wing when time was called. If you just follow the Y, Barrel Roll gets you in the blind spot most of the time.

Dallas seemed to think that he had lost the match anyway, so I don't think so. Remember the Y-wing can still K-turn...