I think the problem was more a release timing. The Defender was released with the Phantom. According it got immediately overlooked. The Phantom was a game killer and abused the rules endlessly. Hense people thought and still think the Defender is defective because on a point basis the Phantom surpasses it.

The Defender flies differently and never ended up getting the respect it deserves. I just do not get the Veterans "thing" as I have to many bombers and do not really fly the Defender. I thing other "fixes" would be better rather than reducing the cost.

Just my opinion.

I like to ask this question to people who say the white K is over rated. What would you pay to have the white k on any ship? If you could run Wedge or any other ace with a white K turn upgrade card it would have to cost a TON to make it not overpowered. That's the beauty of the defender that people don't realize. If flown according to its strengths which is don't close to fast since you have all the banks and can deal damage from range with 3-4 dice attacks, it is a powerful ship. Then you have the white K which in the vast majority of circumstances allows the defender a shot on something EVERY turn. That is a huge boon for a small base non-turret ship. There are hardly any wasted turns. It has the shields and green dice to get shot at multiple times and live. Those who complained THANK YOU! One of my favorite ships is now going to be insanely powerful!

It's one of my favourite ships too. But you're drastically overselling what it brings to the table.

It's not a matter of just learning how to fly it. The defender was overcosted for what it delivered, hence the strongest fix we've seen in x wing to date.

No. The X7 and /D are no where close to the power of the X1 title. Especially combined with the ATC. There is absolutely no reason to never bring the X1 title. Whereas, there are some very good debates to be had about the two new titles. Biophysical would never have done as well as he did at Regionals if they were as overcosted as many claim.

Agreed, the X1 title was an incredible reversal for the advanced. From worst to first.

Basically people flew it wrong trying to use it as a jouster which it isn't.

I'm confused. If it's not a Jouster, is it an arc dodger? A turret? An ordnance ship?

Come on. It's clearly a Jouster. Soon it will be a good one.

it's as much a jouster as the BTL-a4 ICT Y-wing

as I like to say, it is to jousting what tire irons are to knees

I like to ask this question to people who say the white K is over rated. What would you pay to have the white k on any ship? If you could run Wedge or any other ace with a white K turn upgrade card it would have to cost a TON to make it not overpowered. That's the beauty of the defender that people don't realize. If flown according to its strengths which is don't close to fast since you have all the banks and can deal damage from range with 3-4 dice attacks, it is a powerful ship. Then you have the white K which in the vast majority of circumstances allows the defender a shot on something EVERY turn. That is a huge boon for a small base non-turret ship. There are hardly any wasted turns. It has the shields and green dice to get shot at multiple times and live. Those who complained THANK YOU! One of my favorite ships is now going to be insanely powerful!

It's one of my favourite ships too. But you're drastically overselling what it brings to the table.

It's not a matter of just learning how to fly it. The defender was overcosted for what it delivered, hence the strongest fix we've seen in x wing to date.

No. The X7 and /D are no where close to the power of the X1 title. Especially combined with the ATC. There is absolutely no reason to never bring the X1 title. Whereas, there are some very good debates to be had about the two new titles. Biophysical would never have done as well as he did at Regionals if they were as overcosted as many claim.

Fair enough, the advanced fix may give it a run for its money. But I wouldn't say that it's nowhere close. It's very close.

Advanced get one crit per attack. Defenders get an entire other attack with a Canon, with the attendant ability to strip tokens on one or both attacks.

Or, they get -2 squad points and a free action ( that they dont even have kn their action var) in exchange for a Canon slot, and a missile slot which nobody ever uses.

Plus, advanced can only do their crit addition on a ship they have a Tl on, and only if they don't use that Tl for dice modification.

So, I'd Say it's pretty damned close to as powerful. Certainly not nowhere near close.

It's a great jouster, especially with the white k-turn. You get a quick back attack.

However, it could use cheaper cannons. Add cannon at minus two points and ****. It would be on everyone's list.

Or, they get -2 squad points and a free action ( that they dont even have kn their action var) in exchange for a Canon slot, and a missile slot which nobody ever uses.

It's not an action, you assign an evade token after executing a 3,4 or 5 speed maneuver.

No. The X7 and /D are no where close to the power of the X1 title. Especially combined with the ATC. There is absolutely no reason to never bring the X1 title. Whereas, there are some very good debates to be had about the two new titles. Biophysical would never have done as well as he did at Regionals if they were as overcosted as many claim.

The X1 Title is an auto-include, yes. BUT! The choice gets pushed from "which title do I take" onto "what system do I pair with the X1 title"? The debates on this forum between ATC and Accuracy Corrector raged for a long time before reaching a general consensus (AC on low PS ships, ATC on high PS ships).

I do think the Defender fix is a bit less severe than the Advanced fix was- but the Advanced was in a bit worse of a place than the Defender is. I'd say the Defender was the Imperial ship most in need of fixing as of last week- and I'm glad to see that FFG is taking strong measures to deal with that.

Fair enough, the advanced fix may give it a run for its money. But I wouldn't say that it's nowhere close. It's very close.

Advanced get one crit per attack. Defenders get an entire other attack with a Canon, with the attendant ability to strip tokens on one or both attacks.

Or, they get -2 squad points and a free action ( that they dont even have kn their action var) in exchange for a Canon slot, and a missile slot which nobody ever uses.

Plus, advanced can only do their crit addition on a ship they have a Tl on, and only if they don't use that Tl for dice modification.

So, I'd Say it's pretty damned close to as powerful. Certainly not nowhere near close.

The ATC is only one option. But, the question is, why would you not take the X1 title. Advance Sensors, and even more powerful, Accuracy Corrector is extremely powerful. The fact that there is debate on which title to take, even whether to even take the title, is why the Defender titles aren't even close to the X1 title.

Fair enough, the advanced fix may give it a run for its money. But I wouldn't say that it's nowhere close. It's very close.

Advanced get one crit per attack. Defenders get an entire other attack with a Canon, with the attendant ability to strip tokens on one or both attacks.

Or, they get -2 squad points and a free action ( that they dont even have kn their action var) in exchange for a Canon slot, and a missile slot which nobody ever uses.

Plus, advanced can only do their crit addition on a ship they have a Tl on, and only if they don't use that Tl for dice modification.

So, I'd Say it's pretty damned close to as powerful. Certainly not nowhere near close.

The ATC is only one option. But, the question is, why would you not take the X1 title. Advance Sensors, and even more powerful, Accuracy Corrector is extremely powerful. The fact that there is debate on which title to take, even whether to even take the title, is why the Defender titles aren't even close to the X1 title.

...no,it means there are two different titles instead on one.

Which is yet another point for the defender vs the X1 title.

Maybe the defect was not in the cost but it's maneuvering dial. Which is a solution FFG has never tried out.

I like to ask this question to people who say the white K is over rated. What would you pay to have the white k on any ship? If you could run Wedge or any other ace with a white K turn upgrade card it would have to cost a TON to make it not overpowered. That's the beauty of the defender that people don't realize. If flown according to its strengths which is don't close to fast since you have all the banks and can deal damage from range with 3-4 dice attacks, it is a powerful ship. Then you have the white K which in the vast majority of circumstances allows the defender a shot on something EVERY turn. That is a huge boon for a small base non-turret ship. There are hardly any wasted turns. It has the shields and green dice to get shot at multiple times and live. Those who complained THANK YOU! One of my favorite ships is now going to be insanely powerful!

It's one of my favourite ships too. But you're drastically overselling what it brings to the table.

It's not a matter of just learning how to fly it. The defender was overcosted for what it delivered, hence the strongest fix we've seen in x wing to date.

I love the new Defender titles and all, but the x-1 title is 'stronger'. Which is fine, because the Advanced was even worse off than the defender...

There never was much wrong with the defender other than it its roll on the table vs its lore. That and it was pretty linear in its builds. Now that has been broadened. I personally love the defenders dial. Its very strong the ship is highly stress resistant and the reds tend to make people think you 'can't' perform 1 and 2 turns for some reason making it far less predictable than a white k would suggest. As for the power of the spoiled titles vs the x1 I personally feel the /D with ion is going to be on par with x1. This is preliminary and with limited testing but I can say so far its felt ridiculously good.

I like to ask this question to people who say the white K is over rated. What would you pay to have the white k on any ship? If you could run Wedge or any other ace with a white K turn upgrade card it would have to cost a TON to make it not overpowered. That's the beauty of the defender that people don't realize. If flown according to its strengths which is don't close to fast since you have all the banks and can deal damage from range with 3-4 dice attacks, it is a powerful ship. Then you have the white K which in the vast majority of circumstances allows the defender a shot on something EVERY turn. That is a huge boon for a small base non-turret ship. There are hardly any wasted turns. It has the shields and green dice to get shot at multiple times and live. Those who complained THANK YOU! One of my favorite ships is now going to be insanely powerful!

It's one of my favourite ships too. But you're drastically overselling what it brings to the table.

It's not a matter of just learning how to fly it. The defender was overcosted for what it delivered, hence the strongest fix we've seen in x wing to date.

I love the new Defender titles and all, but the x-1 title is 'stronger'. Which is fine, because the Advanced was even worse off than the defender...

Vs 2 point reduction and a free action tied to arguably the strongest maneuver in the game - the white 4k, plus every other maneuver of a minimum speed.

Or else the ability to damage AND control. Consider, gunner is worth five points and only allows you to attack if your first shot missed. This title allows you to always take a second shot, allows you both high damage and control. Much better than just a sort-of-free sensor slot, in my opinion.

Time will tell in tournament results, I suppose.

Maybe the defect was not in the cost but it's maneuvering dial. Which is a solution FFG has never tried out.

I feel people complaining about the Defender dial, are comparing it too much to the Interceptor dial. But this is a very different ship.

Vs 2 point reduction and a free action tied to arguably the strongest maneuver in the game - the white 4k, plus every other maneuver of a minimum speed.

It's not a free action, you can't PtL off of it, but it also can't be blocked, stressed away or stopped by Carnor.

I like to ask this question to people who say the white K is over rated. What would you pay to have the white k on any ship? If you could run Wedge or any other ace with a white K turn upgrade card it would have to cost a TON to make it not overpowered. That's the beauty of the defender that people don't realize. If flown according to its strengths which is don't close to fast since you have all the banks and can deal damage from range with 3-4 dice attacks, it is a powerful ship. Then you have the white K which in the vast majority of circumstances allows the defender a shot on something EVERY turn. That is a huge boon for a small base non-turret ship. There are hardly any wasted turns. It has the shields and green dice to get shot at multiple times and live. Those who complained THANK YOU! One of my favorite ships is now going to be insanely powerful!

It's one of my favourite ships too. But you're drastically overselling what it brings to the table.

It's not a matter of just learning how to fly it. The defender was overcosted for what it delivered, hence the strongest fix we've seen in x wing to date.

I love the new Defender titles and all, but the x-1 title is 'stronger'. Which is fine, because the Advanced was even worse off than the defender...

I'm not sure that's true. X1 is effectively an up-to-4-point reduction and access to a system slot.

Vs 2 point reduction and a free action tied to arguably the strongest maneuver in the game - the white 4k, plus every other maneuver of a minimum speed.

Or else the ability to damage AND control. Consider, gunner is worth five points and only allows you to attack if your first shot missed. This title allows you to always take a second shot, allows you both high damage and control. Much better than just a sort-of-free sensor slot, in my opinion.

Time will tell in tournament results, I suppose.

X-7 = free evade token on speed 3 - 5. Compare to FCS: free target lock after you shoot. Objectively speaking, these are fairly equal and of equivalent value on their respective ships. But FCS is arguably the 'weakest' system option the TIE advanced gets access to (actually enhanced scopes is, but no one cares about that!).

TIE/D vs ATC: you pay 1 - 3 points for the cannon vs 1 pt for ATC. Being able to shoot with cannon + primary is good, but its effectiveness depends on the number of green dice the target rolls. The more greens, the less great this ability is (coupled with defensive tokens). ATC on the other hand adds the crit (at the expense of your TL) to one shot, allowing a slightly better chance of pushing damage through greens on that one shot. I admit its not clear cut, because I think TIE/D is better in terms of damage potential vs low agility targets (although then again, high hull, low shields hate that crit from ATC) whereas the ATC might be better against higher agility. Regardless of what is better in raw damage potential, the ATC is technically cheaper for damage: it is equal in price to a tractor beam (which doesn't deal damage, but might help your team deal more damage later...depending) and 2 points less than the ion cannon option.

So yeah, its not like there's a huge difference between the two, but I still think the system slot does more for the TIE advanced. Especially considering how the advanced is virtually unplayable without it (even in casual games); whereas the Defender was not THAT bad off prior to this fix.

It's a great jouster, especially with the white k-turn. You get a quick back attack.

However, it could use cheaper cannons. Add cannon at minus two points and ****. It would be on everyone's list.

With the cards spoiled from Veterans, it's on everybody's list right now.

He biggest hurdle I see the defender having is people's expectations. This is not a video game (thank god) and it is not that defender (thank god), neither is it a super interceptor( though it might kill off the interceptor after veterans releases), and the dial is not bad but it's not good. It is a large base ship design without the large base ship discount really.

The dial takes just about as much getting used to as the Hipposhuttlebus (original shuttle!) and that's saying something. Few of us have mastered that manatee but the first time you fly against someone who has you are baffled. In my play group the shuttle is feared. The defender is much the same, except it has a really good dial but so **** different than everything else.

Vess is the best and you can have the 3/3/3/3 stat line on a PS 8 ship with white Kturns and MKII + free evade tokens for the same cost as loaded Fel once Vetrans releases. That is a big deal. He slots right in there. Take the other title and he slots in Whisper's old point slot (which is easily accessible with the inquisitor acing too!). That is also a big deal for MR. TL all day.

It's a fine ship but soon it will be a competitive ship. A subtle but important difference. You won't be surprised to see the defender much longer, you'll actually have to build with that in mind; that alone will shake up the meta.

I like to ask this question to people who say the white K is over rated. What would you pay to have the white k on any ship? If you could run Wedge or any other ace with a white K turn upgrade card it would have to cost a TON to make it not overpowered. That's the beauty of the defender that people don't realize. If flown according to its strengths which is don't close to fast since you have all the banks and can deal damage from range with 3-4 dice attacks, it is a powerful ship. Then you have the white K which in the vast majority of circumstances allows the defender a shot on something EVERY turn. That is a huge boon for a small base non-turret ship. There are hardly any wasted turns. It has the shields and green dice to get shot at multiple times and live. Those who complained THANK YOU! One of my favorite ships is now going to be insanely powerful!

It's one of my favourite ships too. But you're drastically overselling what it brings to the table.

It's not a matter of just learning how to fly it. The defender was overcosted for what it delivered, hence the strongest fix we've seen in x wing to date.

I love the new Defender titles and all, but the x-1 title is 'stronger'. Which is fine, because the Advanced was even worse off than the defender...

I don't know if I'd call it "stronger". I'd call it a more drastic fix. It elevates the thing from "virtually unplayable" to "actually quite good". The Defender titles take the Defender from "dedicated, not-thematically accurate role" (slow-riding, long range cannon carrier) and diversify the uses they can serve on the board. They were always useful, but their utility required building around them and flying them in a very specific way. Now they can be played more "from the hip" and in two greatly different ways.

Maybe the defect was not in the cost but it's maneuvering dial. Which is a solution FFG has never tried out.

I feel people complaining about the Defender dial, are comparing it too much to the Interceptor dial. But this is a very different ship.

It is quite a different ship, and _yes_, the dial is quite different from the Interceptor, but that's not really the whole problem. It's _part_ of the problem, in that this game does favor tighter maneuvers on Small ships, and the Defender can't really pull those off. Having said that:

Compare the cost of the PS 1 Defender and PS 1 Interceptor. There's a 12 point difference between them. That's an entire TIE Fighter you can run alongside the Squint. Those extra 12 points get you 2 extra red dice, 3 extra green jerks dice, and you're trading 3 shields for 3 hull. I just can't see a Defender having a better-enough dial to be worth it. The new X7 title will make the Defender's dial significantly stronger by putting evade tokens on 8/17 of its maneuvers. More than that, the X7 Title will reduce the price difference between it and the Squint by enough that you will _no longer be able to get a standard TIE in next to that Interceptor. That's important!

I think the X7 Title will make the Defender's dial _much_ better, without actually changing any maneuver on that dial.

The way the TIE/D title adds a control element to the Defender's weapons mix also enhances the Defender's dial: the major weakness of a jouster is their inability to deal with high PS arc dodgers. Well. I don't care _when_ you move- if you're ioned I know _exactly_ where you will be. If I know exactly where you will be, then I know where I need to be in response.

So, yes: the Defender is a very different ship. And I think with these titles it will finally start being worth the cost.

Like the E-wing, the Defender Generics are overpriced- for an elite ship in the fluff, and for 30 points, PS1 and 3 was a joke when the Phantom got a PS3 and PS5 for their generics, and even the base TIE bombers are 2 and 4.

Same thing is true for the E-Wing. If the generic Defender and E-Wings were PS 3 and 5 for the same cost, and Etahn was a PS6, the internal balance of those two fighters would have been much better.

and a missile slot which nobody ever uses.

Epic Play, Ion Pulse Missiles are amazing. Two Defenders rocking in with those things will absolutely ruin a Huge ship's day. And I imagine Adv. Homing will now be even more dangerous. Vessery for his middling pilot skill and rerolls, Rexler for the potential to re-flip any crits that turn themselves face down afterwards, and Maarek for his cherrypicked effects will all give the missile slot new uses. I'm so looking forward to epic games again it's ridiculous. They were so much fun, we almost always did them 2 v. 2 at our location.

God I soooo wish our local scene hadn't dried up.

Compare the cost of the PS 1 Defender and PS 1 Interceptor. There's a 12 point difference between them. That's an entire TIE Fighter you can run alongside the Squint. Those extra 12 points get you 2 extra red dice, 3 extra green jerks dice, and you're trading 3 shields for 3 hull. I just can't see a Defender having a better-enough dial to be worth it. The new X7 title will make the Defender's dial significantly stronger by putting evade tokens on 8/17 of its maneuvers. More than that, the X7 Title will reduce the price difference between it and the Squint by enough that you will _no longer be able to get a standard TIE in next to that Interceptor. That's important!

I think the X7 Title will make the Defender's dial _much_ better, without actually changing any maneuver on that dial.

I also love the TIE mk II mod, giving it more green than any other ship in the game.

X7 and the TIE mod will be my go to choice.

evade tokens on 8/17 of its maneuvers

… and 10 green maneuvers with mk II on there, good god I can't wait to fly these things.

edit: Dagonet you ninja

I was packing an Ion Pulse Missile alongside the HLC in my 2-Defender list. Now I won't have to, because Ion Cannons and the TIE/D.