I'd love to see a showdown between The Emperor of Mankind (pre-Golden Throne) and either Yoda or Palpatine.

If we use the high-end Emperor (the one I like to see), who was a Star Level+ combatant, then Emperor wins easily Even if we use Dark Empire Sidious.

Though the Emperor would need to be at least that powerful, as DE Sidious pulled off some pretty insane feats. As did Yoda for that matter.

Problem is we have kind of Sidious charsheet, but nothing like that about The Emperor, to be honest. I haven't the slightest idea where his limits are.

Of course, we take a situation "both universe's rules work", I believe. I mean, Emperor can use his psyker warp-bending potential, Sidious/Yoda can use Force.

Problem is we have kind of Sidious charsheet, but nothing like that about The Emperor, to be honest. I haven't the slightest idea where his limits are.

Of course, we take a situation "both universe's rules work", I believe. I mean, Emperor can use his psyker warp-bending potential, Sidious/Yoda can use Force.

The Emperor is off the chart, he is basically the most powerfull psyker in the Universe, a few evolutionary steps ahead of regular Humans.

He probably cannot die, as he persumably did so multiple times (or he didn't die at all)

He is able to keep Warp Storms at bay with his mind and prevents the destruction of Humanity by the Chaos Gods by doing so.

His might is a light in the Warp with which orientation in the Warp is possible, without it it is not.

But we are talking Warhammer 40k, where the Emperor is half dead and sitting on his throne, so he can basically do nothing.

To be honest, the Emperor and the Primarchs are such overpowered beings, they alone probably beat everything in every other universe... without weapons

He is able to keep Warp Storms at bay with his mind and prevents the destruction of Humanity by the Chaos Gods by doing so.

His might is a light in the Warp with which orientation in the Warp is possible, without it it is not.

Problem is - maybe Sidius or Yoda can do it too, we just don't know.

After all Sidius died more then once (and he could create and control Force Storms, that are close enough to warp storm by effect), so Yoda used to came and speak as force spirit after his death.

He is able to keep Warp Storms at bay with his mind and prevents the destruction of Humanity by the Chaos Gods by doing so.

His might is a light in the Warp with which orientation in the Warp is possible, without it it is not.

Problem is - maybe Sidius or Yoda can do it too, we just don't know.

After all Sidius died more then once (and he could create and control Force Storms, that are close enough to warp storm by effect), so Yoda used to came and speak as force spirit after his death.

Yeah, that's not cannon anymore^^

As powerfull as the Force is and as powerfull as Sidius is, they do not compare to the Emperor.

And this is not pure fandom, the half-dead. rotting emperor is able to hold Warpstorms between every human World simultaniously at bay. And the Imperium streaches through the whole Galaxy.

Also I don't see how anyone can create something simillar like a Warpstorm with the force, these concepts are just too different, but that may just be opinion.

Also as old as the star wars characters get, they are not over 10.000 years old, which is for how long the Emperor is half-dead and that is less than half of his existance.

I'm sorry but at that point, I don't know how one could be as powerfull as the Emperor, unless he is a Primarch. (And he only lost to Horus because he held back, simillar to Vader and Luke)

These are just written to be Gods of War.

A Primarch can hold a Plasmablast from a Titan with his bare Hand, stopping it from Annahilating the whole army, and that is nothing compared to what the Emperor is able to.

It is simpler and better to focus on Space Marines and Jedi

Yeah, that's not cannon anymore^^

Yoda force spirit is. He appears in remastered 6th movie.

And this is not pure fandom, the half-dead. rotting emperor is able to hold Warpstorms between every human World simultaniously at bay. And the Imperium streaches through the whole Galaxy.

And don't you forget hundreds and thousands of psykers who are sacrificed to allow him to do it? It's heresy of course, but chaos prophets say that Emperor is dead for that ten thousand years, so Astronomican works on that sacrifices; what can we do to check?

So problem is we can't say what Primarch or Emperor himself can do and what he can't do. Just in case, I know how they are described, but I know how potent force users described too. With force users there is more concrete facts, not just "they are the best", that's what I say.

Yeah, that's not cannon anymore^^

Yoda force spirit is. He appears in remastered 6th movie.

And this is not pure fandom, the half-dead. rotting emperor is able to hold Warpstorms between every human World simultaniously at bay. And the Imperium streaches through the whole Galaxy.

And don't you forget hundreds and thousands of psykers who are sacrificed to allow him to do it? It's heresy of course, but chaos prophets say that Emperor is dead for that ten thousand years, so Astronomican works on that sacrifices; what can we do to check?

So problem is we can't say what Primarch or Emperor himself can do and what he can't do. Just in case, I know how they are described, but I know how potent force users described too. With force users there is more concrete facts, not just "they are the best", that's what I say.

With the cannon I meant the Sidious died multiple times.

And I have to agree that the halfdead Emperor might have to be fuled, but he does a in a hell of a time more in that state than any forceuser probably could.

Furthermore the exact descriptions of powerfull Force users work against them here.

In the offical cannon, the Jedi aren't that impressive. Don't get me wrong, they are powerfull, incredibly powerfull, but compared to the Emperor?

The problem with GW Cannon is that everything released by the Black Library is cannon, which is alot.

The Emperor build over millenia an Empire, Supersoldiers, Demigods, Technology ultra advanced and was half way of creating a human Webway.

He works just on a bigger scale than Palpetine. He had the foresight and wisdom so complex a human cannot comprehend.

His powers work on planetary scale, he just likes it close and personal.

And in the SW Cannon, no Force used by living beings is strong enough to manipulate matter on a planetary size.

Even in the EU palpetine was never powerfull enough to manipulate such sizes.

And the Emperor may even find a way to prevent Palpatines force ghost to find a new body? I don't know

As you said, the problem with "he is the best" is that he will allways be the best. And Palpatine is not the best of the Star Wars universe.

Problem is we have kind of Sidious charsheet, but nothing like that about The Emperor, to be honest. I haven't the slightest idea where his limits are.

Of course, we take a situation "both universe's rules work", I believe. I mean, Emperor can use his psyker warp-bending potential, Sidious/Yoda can use Force.

The Emperor is off the chart, he is basically the most powerfull psyker in the Universe, a few evolutionary steps ahead of regular Humans.

He probably cannot die, as he persumably did so multiple times (or he didn't die at all)

He is able to keep Warp Storms at bay with his mind and prevents the destruction of Humanity by the Chaos Gods by doing so.

His might is a light in the Warp with which orientation in the Warp is possible, without it it is not.

But we are talking Warhammer 40k, where the Emperor is half dead and sitting on his throne, so he can basically do nothing.

To be honest, the Emperor and the Primarchs are such overpowered beings, they alone probably beat everything in every other universe... without weapons

Ultimate result of this rambling-- don't underestimate Star Wars. It has some absurdly impressive feats on account of Jedi, and the Vs site, Outskirts Battledome has even extrapolated high-tier Jedi to having lightspeed reactions (something I disagree with but TECHNICALLY it can be argued).

Problem is we have kind of Sidious charsheet, but nothing like that about The Emperor, to be honest. I haven't the slightest idea where his limits are.

Of course, we take a situation "both universe's rules work", I believe. I mean, Emperor can use his psyker warp-bending potential, Sidious/Yoda can use Force.

The Emperor is off the chart, he is basically the most powerfull psyker in the Universe, a few evolutionary steps ahead of regular Humans.

He probably cannot die, as he persumably did so multiple times (or he didn't die at all)

He is able to keep Warp Storms at bay with his mind and prevents the destruction of Humanity by the Chaos Gods by doing so.

His might is a light in the Warp with which orientation in the Warp is possible, without it it is not.

But we are talking Warhammer 40k, where the Emperor is half dead and sitting on his throne, so he can basically do nothing.

To be honest, the Emperor and the Primarchs are such overpowered beings, they alone probably beat everything in every other universe... without weapons

Eh, heh.... be careful when you say: "Beat everything in every other universe." Even if the Emperor were to combine forces with all four Chaos Gods, Gork, Mork, channel the Tyranid Hive Mind, and backed by the Dragon, that combined force would be less than an ant compared to some entities out there like Marvel Comic's Living Tribunal which can destroy and create entire universes at a time (that's universeS plural). Other entities in Living Tribunal's tier would be things like Featherine from Umineko, Azathoth from H.P. Lovecraft, Eru Illuvatar from the Silmarillion, Q from Star Trek, the Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann among others. 40k's a powerful Scifi 'verse, but it's restricted to a single Galaxy. Any character from any series capable of Galactic-level destruction or higher is generally going to mop the floor with 40k.

With regards to Star Wars, it really, honestly does depend on the 40k Lore you take. Mind, the Primarchs themselves can probably be taken by extremely high level Jedi/Sith. Sidious for example, is easily planet-level based on feats he pulled off in Dark Empire and other novelizations and comics (destroying entire Star Fleets with Force Storm, draining the life from entire planets, for example). And guys like Darth Nihilus as well, for that matter.

Luke Skywalker himself, had telekinetic power so formidable it was stated in one of the novels that even a black hole couldn't have budged him if he didn't want it to.

Ultimate result of this rambling-- don't underestimate Star Wars. It has some absurdly impressive feats on account of Jedi, and the Vs site, Outskirts Battledome has even extrapolated high-tier Jedi to having lightspeed reactions (something I disagree with but TECHNICALLY it can be argued).

Indeed, I maybe got over my head and wrote my opinion poorly.

That indeed "the best in the Universe" will allways be the best, as their power would scale up with every other powerfull entety, except "the best of another Universe comes over", where both would scale up.

Maybe I think too mathematical about it.

Also I (tried) to state that I'm only looking at the cannon versions of the Universe, and the cannon version of Star Wars has less material than the cannon version of Warhammer.

And since authors thend to go more and more over the top over time, the Warhammer Universe got ridiculously strong. Just like Star Wars EU. Except SW EU is not cannon.

If I would take Star Wars Legens into account, this would be different, but to be honest the EU is mostly too ridiculous and cheesy for my taste, so I thend to not mind it not being cannon anymore.

Trust me, I don't underastimate Star Wars, but I'd rather not take godly/god-like/whatever into account for simplicity... But we do it anyway

Well yes. I'll certainly concede that without the Expanded Universe/Legends, Star Wars gets stomped hard by 40k. Which is why I tend to include Legends/EU. It actually makes the matchup interesting

Though I'd challenge your assessment of "the strongest in a 'verse" scaling up with other 'verses. That I don't necessarily agree with. It might be my experiences on VS forums talking but I tend to look at comparisons like that of: "This guy may just be a big fish in a small pond." sort of thing. The Emperor is incredibly powerful--- in the context of 40k. Outside of 40k though he may be impossibly powerful or incredibly weak. Just depends who he's fighting. We don't "scale up" James Bond to fight the Emperor even though that's a woefully lopsided fight. Similarly, we shouldn't scale the Emperor up past his highest-end feats or accolades just because he may end up getting pitted against something like a DC or Marvel Comics top-tier, which make the entire 40k universe look "cute".

Some things just end up being a bit far out of scale for a 'verse to fight, and that's fine. Not every 'verse needs to be giant robots throwing Galaxies at each other.

Radwraith wrote:

I don't think anyone is silly enough to believe that Stormtroopers or even the Clone troopers are any match for the Astartes!

One on one? No. But we are talking about numbers akin to the imperial guard who use plasma weaponry as a default in firing lines, while Space Marines are prone to go into melee, which would work if they were Jedi, except they've got no way to deflect said plasma bolts. Never mind we have no way of knowing how decently a stormtrooper's armour deflects bolter shells and other primitive ballistic weapons. Surely there's a reason literally everyone in Star Wars uses plasma and when explosives DO come into play, they're total overkill that can be spotted from SPACE....

Edit: Aaand lynata beat me to it. Note to self: Read entire thread first.

RE space battles:

Depending on which era of star wars we're talking about, planetkiller weapons are "old tech" people expect in an engagement and know the tech behind well enough to guess how to destroy one. 40k's space ships, on the other hand, haven't notably progressed in tens of thousands of years. So, if we say, take the fairly fragile ships from the old republic, of course 40k has a fighting chance.

But if we take snub fighters that can blow up an area you can see from orbit and capital ships that can glass a planet with their standard weaponry (which, as pointed out, is far 'smaller' than the apparently MUCH less effective macrobatteries and lances; note: Smaller does not mean something packs less of a punch. I point you towards example A: Railgun vs Howitzer), then 40k simply has not even a snowball's chance in hell.

Not to mention canonically, 40k ships take literal hours to perform simple manuevers and fire. The only thing they have going for them are void shields which, again, canonically can be overloaded with volume of fire, which is what everything from the victory class SD onwards is built for.

while Space Marines are prone to go into melee

Space Marines shoots better that humans.

Never mind we have no way of knowing how decently a stormtrooper's armour deflects bolter shells

It can be pierced by melee weapons. And stormtrooper can be struck by a stone thrown by teddy bear.

I'd not give many credits for their armor.

Space marines do not shoot better than humans. Space marines and imperial guard veterans are on comparable experience and skill levels in terms of ranged weaponry.

As for ewoks, keep in mind these "teddy bears" are strong enough to melee endgame fauna in Star Wars, which has been confirmed in the EU to be "immune to plasma fire". People often underestimate them because they look cute, but they're obviously stronger than a trained human soldier. Now, if we do go by that encounter in RotJ, the stormtrooper armour doesn't even get pierced. In fact, I cannot think of an occassion outside bowcasters, star ship weapons and lightsabers where anything actually went THROUGH a stormtroopers armour. Usually, it seems to be blunt force trauma that puts them down. The armour remains ridiculously impervious to weapons' fire.

You realize you'll never get out of this discussion because of all the different interpretations going on about each setting? And there is nothing in canon that says how both settings would actually interact with each other, aside from wild speculation right now.

It kinda reminds me of this thread: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/star-wars-universe-vs-warhammer-40k-universe-673186/

Carry on, it's a fun read regardless.

In fact, I think most people are rather mature here, so maybe it's not like that link I posted.

In fact, I cannot think of an occassion outside bowcasters, star ship weapons and lightsabers where anything actually went THROUGH a stormtroopers armour. Usually, it seems to be blunt force trauma that puts them down. The armour remains ridiculously impervious to weapons' fire.

Then this armour is crap. Shoot a bolter shot or even a .30 caliber heavy stubber in their face and the blunt trauma will kill them.

You couldn't even die of blunt trauma against sword and axes while wearing a full plate, unless it was rusted. On the other hand, guy under it could die when you pierced said armour.

Space marines do not shoot better than humans. Space marines and imperial guard veterans are on comparable experience and skill levels in terms of ranged weaponry.

In fact, I cannot think of an occassion outside bowcasters, star ship weapons and lightsabers where anything actually went THROUGH a stormtroopers armour. Usually, it seems to be blunt force trauma that puts them down. The armour remains ridiculously impervious to weapons' fire.

Then this armour is crap. Shoot a bolter shot or even a .30 caliber heavy stubber in their face and the blunt trauma will kill them.

You couldn't even die of blunt trauma against sword and axes while wearing a full plate, unless it was rusted. On the other hand, guy under it could die when you pierced said armour.

I'm not going to disagree. I'd even go one step further and say it's a very telltale sign of the empire's mentality, where stormtrooper armour is more important than its occupant, who is regarded as utterly expendable. It's also debatable if the troopers are actually dead as such or simply recovered post-battle and doused in bacta. Internal injuries do take a while to die from.

It's quite notable, though, that the armour important people wear, such as Vader or Ren, tends to have much, much better impact absorption. I guess they just don't waste the good stuff on the fodder.

Regarding the ballistic skills of stormtroopers: In the new canon, they're quite a bit better than in the Lucas movies, which ties in to what Disney shows us of the extent of their training in rebels. Stormtroopers are trained from the same age on as space marines, with similar methods even in the First Order. While they're not as "old" or experienced, treating them the same as your average WH40k conscript in terms of accuracy no longer does the new canon justice.

Space marines do not shoot better than humans. Space marines and imperial guard veterans are on comparable experience and skill levels in terms of ranged weaponry.

As for ewoks, keep in mind these "teddy bears" are strong enough to melee endgame fauna in Star Wars, which has been confirmed in the EU to be "immune to plasma fire". People often underestimate them because they look cute, but they're obviously stronger than a trained human soldier. Now, if we do go by that encounter in RotJ, the stormtrooper armour doesn't even get pierced. In fact, I cannot think of an occassion outside bowcasters, star ship weapons and lightsabers where anything actually went THROUGH a stormtroopers armour. Usually, it seems to be blunt force trauma that puts them down. The armour remains ridiculously impervious to weapons' fire.

I've always felt that Ewoks were a bit maligned for their lack of size and strength. An Ewok is just a bit smaller than a chimpanzee, and a chimp can easily rip a mans face off. Now imagine a chimp with a stone ax, and how much damage that would do. Plus lets not discount swarm attacks. Quantity of troops makes up for a lot of quality of troops all on its own. (see Russians vs. Germans)

Regarding the ballistic skills of stormtroopers: In the new canon, they're quite a bit better than in the Lucas movies, which ties in to what Disney shows us of the extent of their training in rebels. Stormtroopers are trained from the same age on as space marines, with similar methods even in the First Order. While they're not as "old" or experienced, treating them the same as your average WH40k conscript in terms of accuracy no longer does the new canon justice.

Indeed, something that pleases me much. THey also tend to survive or cry after being hit and crawling on the ground.

Quantity of troops makes up for a lot of quality of troops all on its own. (see Russians vs. Germans)

If one teddybear is too weak to rip your face off, being ten teddybear won't make them stronger.

They'll just send you more trying.

Quantity is a quality on itself, but doesn't give more quality in said troops.

Regarding the ballistic skills of stormtroopers: In the new canon, they're quite a bit better than in the Lucas movies, which ties in to what Disney shows us of the extent of their training in rebels. Stormtroopers are trained from the same age on as space marines, with similar methods even in the First Order. While they're not as "old" or experienced, treating them the same as your average WH40k conscript in terms of accuracy no longer does the new canon justice.

Indeed, something that pleases me much. THey also tend to survive or cry after being hit and crawling on the ground.

Quantity of troops makes up for a lot of quality of troops all on its own. (see Russians vs. Germans)

If one teddybear is too weak to rip your face off, being ten teddybear won't make them stronger.

They'll just send you more trying.

Quantity is a quality on itself, but doesn't give more quality in said troops.

I think five Teddybears holding down a Trooper while the other five hit him with axes is a decent and effective strategy.

Yes. But this doesn't make them better.

Quantity is a quality on itself, but doesn't improve the quality of said numerous units.

Except the teddybears aren't weak at all. They're carnivorous, primitive humanoids in Star Wars megafauna. If they were weak, they'd be herbivores and hide, instead of having a cannibalistic warrior culture...

Human are pretty weak compared to a lot of things that exists and they strill thrived in inhospitable environnements and still were predators and had many warrior cultures.

This is no indication at all.

Ewok are organised, capable of developping weapons, and this in itself is more than enough to be the dominant specy in an environnement where there are other many dangerous creatures.

But anyways, I don't debate on the strenght of said ewok, I'm not knowledgeable enough.

Except the teddybears aren't weak at all. They're carnivorous, primitive humanoids in Star Wars megafauna. If they were weak, they'd be herbivores and hide, instead of having a cannibalistic warrior culture...

I said more than enough to be, not that they are.