From how I understand melta weapons to work, though, they do not fire a single "pulse" but rather an ongoing stream. You may be able to dodge the initial impact, but all the attacker has to do is swing the barrel around.

The advantage of the melta that I see is that the extended range makes it harder to dodge. With a beam like that, the further away from the weapon you go, the faster it will move.

I'm not sure how exactly to explain it ... imagine a 20 meter pole: The first meter would be easy to dodge, like a blade, because this part is swung not far from the hand that guides it. However, the end of the pole will move a lot quicker. Augmented reaction time or Force-assisted movements won't help much if the shooter can just erratically wave it around to blanket an area.

It depends on whether we use Legends or not, as well as how high-end we're making the Astartes.

High-end Jedi from Legends is going to wreck a high-end Astartes.

For some basic feats from Jedi in Legends, include taking a thermal detonator (which ATOMIZES its targets) to the face, and only being briefly stunned-- and this was a Padawan. Jedi have feats of moving faster than the eye can follow, and it was noted in Legacy of the Force: Betrayal, that even a Padawan learner is capable of lifting several tons with the Force, if they have sufficient time to concentrate (with higher level Jedi being capable of doing it at much greater speeds).

While not explicitly Jedi it is worth noting that Darth Bane was able to move so fast that he walked out in a rainstorm and deflected every single drop of rain with his lightsaber, and was able to maintain this for an extended period of time. And while Bane was FAST, he wasn't considered uncounterably fast, as an average Jedi Knight was able to keep up with him during the duel on Tython (albeit with aid from two Jedi Masters but the point stands that he wasn't blitzed like the Jedi that fought Sidious). To my knowledge, speed like that has never been demonstrated by even High-End Astartes.

----

Of course if we use Disney Canon Jedi, they are significantly weaker. They would lose to any high-end Astartes almost unquestionably.

However if we use low-end Astartes, the ball game falls back in favor of the Jedi, as low-end Astartes are only slightly better than the average soldier.

I'm not sure how exactly to explain it ... imagine a 20 meter pole: The first meter would be easy to dodge, like a blade, because this part is swung not far from the hand that guides it. However, the end of the pole will move a lot quicker. Augmented reaction time or Force-assisted movements won't help much if the shooter can just erratically wave it around to blanket an area.

Meltas would be even better!

I don't think so. Melta have narrow beam of superheated plasma so it's easer to dodge it if you have superagility.

For spaceship combat sw wins too... many ships in sw universe can oneshot an entire planet, that is enough to me too see the power gap between 40k and sw.

Well, now, when EU trashed for the good, there is only two such vessels - Death Star and Death Star mk2. And in normal combat... well, I'm not a fan of Imperium ship design school, but SW combat ships are just transports with some macrobatteries by WH standard. Not even lances for you, don't mention Novas.

Light SW crafts beats Imperium at every point though. When Imperial Navy Admirals will meat SAFE WARP-CAPABLE FIGHTER, they will eat their fancy hats.

To be honest I believe it's quite simple to imagine. Jedi Knights are not so far from Eldar Warlocks - extra dodge, battle precognition, fluid fast moves, psy additions to combat. Ah, yes, they have a habit to foresee. And Marines counts "kill an Eldar witch" as a feat that should be rewarded.

But it means Jedi realise all his potential and use it wisely, not as they used to.

SW tactics and combat ability is very, very low.

i don't want to spoil anything but...

anyway wathever disney says... in SW there have been numerous ships capable of destroying a planet, let alone oneshot a capital ship (like the flag ship of griveous in clone wars). In SW there are no lances that's true but consider that they have torpedoes and capital sized turrets, i don't see how lances are better, finally republic/empire ships can fire all their weapons on the forward arc and 2/3 weapons on their sides (that's why they are configured as giant triangles), they can move without the need of using immaterium and have surely better shielding not relying on armour to protect heir hulls as much as 40k ships do (and if you consider mon calamari dreadnoughts that's even a wider gap between shield tech). The shielding tech on capital ships is so good that usually in sw you need wings of bombers to fly under the shields of a ship to deal significant damage.

jedi (force sensitive warriors) can do a lot more than eldar warlocks: first of all they can actually lift a battle tank with their minds, they can cut any kind of armor and can even create illusions, shoot lightning, stop projectiles ecc. or if they are really strong can actually telekinetically bomb an entire army, this is without considering true masters that could do a lot more (nihilus was able to eat an entire planet for ex.), all of this without the risks of the warp backfiring. As i wrote comparing psy powers to the force is like comparing magick in a low-magick setting with forgotten realms magick, they could do the same thing mostly but on a very different scale. Finally if you consider sith lords with their sith sorcery... well actually they can do wathever you imagine even resurrect the dead...

As far as the Power Armor vs. Lightsaber thing goes, Power Armor is primarily made of Ceramite; Ceramite is explicitly an extremely tough, heat-resistant material. I'd say it is up there with cortosis (or at least phrik) in resisting a lightsaber.

Apparently not heat-resistant to do anything against plasma weapons, though, which a lightsaber is.

The protective properties of power armour are often exaggerated even within 40k. I mean, it does not even protect reliably against a las pistol, although it is of course better than what the common soldier has available. Even a flamethrower is capable of cooking the wearer, it just isn't a guaranteed kill.

A lightsabre can cut anything, they can cut even spasceships bulkheads (remember that in sw capital ships can enter atmosphere). Cortosis is a froce reactive material and is resistant because it shorts out the lightsabre. In sw universe when a material can't be cut by a lightsabre is actually considered exotic and rare, they are the exception. For thicker materials like bulkheads or tank armour a lightsabre needs more time only because it has to dig something that is thicker than the actual blade lenght, when we see jedi taking their time to cut something is usually because they need a hole to pass, swing a lightsabre at something and you will have a cut the lenght of the blade in an istant.

For bolters they can only dodge but not deflect, jedi hunters use explosive shells too.

Hmm. Does that make sense? The projectile would detonate at the blade, with the shrapnel that would threaten the target burning up in the plasma field. The only likely source of damage would be heat, but I doubt a bolt projectile would cause that much of an explosion.

The only Jedi hunters I know were the Fel-Empire's Knighthunters, but they used phrik-laced electrostaffs and sonic weaponry to deal with their quarry.

shrapnels from a 20mm explosive round are serious buisness: germans during ww2 used minegeschoss (high-explosive-fragmentation) as their main air-combat rounds and a heavy bomber could be destroyed with 5-6 hits from a 20mm cannon. As soon as the projectile hits the blade it will explode filling the air with shrpanels and high temperature air (the explosion is enough to ignite wood and the shrapnels are able to pass even armoured glass), the result to me is a dead jedi or a very injured one.

In the expanded universe like in legacy or in swkotor bounty hunters hunted jedis using projectile weapons (often with explosive rounds or rounds loaded with chemicals) and even carbonite launchers, flamers and sonic weapons.

For bolters they can only dodge but not deflect, jedi hunters use explosive shells too.

Hmm. Does that make sense? The projectile would detonate at the blade, with the shrapnel that would threaten the target burning up in the plasma field. The only likely source of damage would be heat, but I doubt a bolt projectile would cause that much of an explosion.

The only Jedi hunters I know were the Fel-Empire's Knighthunters, but they used phrik-laced electrostaffs and sonic weaponry to deal with their quarry.

As far as the Power Armor vs. Lightsaber thing goes, Power Armor is primarily made of Ceramite; Ceramite is explicitly an extremely tough, heat-resistant material. I'd say it is up there with cortosis (or at least phrik) in resisting a lightsaber.

Apparently not heat-resistant to do anything against plasma weapons, though, which a lightsaber is.

The protective properties of power armour are often exaggerated even within 40k. I mean, it does not even protect reliably against a las pistol, although it is of course better than what the common soldier has available. Even a flamethrower is capable of cooking the wearer, it just isn't a guaranteed kill.

I wrote in my reply that Bolterrounds would be a problem for Jedi

Maybe not so much that they hurt the jedi when they reflect it, but rather that the explosion puts them off balance (as seen in the Swtor trailer) and they would be open of another burst of bolter rounds to the face.

Also I believed that the Power Armours heat resistanse only gives it a small edge over the Lightsabers cutting quallity, we see lightsabers in the movie often enough bouncing off of surfaces.

Meaning that a Makashi Slash (very light, and fluent motion without alot of strenght or force behind it) would probably not slash right through it.

Every other Lightsaber Form would probably generate enough strenght to penetrate the armour and a strong slash would probably cut right through it.

I like to look at these things more from a situational and narrative standpoint opposed to the simplified rules the tabletop game gives us.

If we look at other resources from GW, like Inquisitor, which is a D100 game, we see how much stronger a Powerarmour is.

Also the movie "Marine Rules" given by GW show how narrative Marines would play, where a squadron of 5 marines would be about 1500 pts worth.

That is the problem with the simplified Rules of Warhammer 40k, which evolved from a loose, satirical skirmish into a warfare tabletop

m not sure how exactly to explain it ... imagine a 20 meter pole: The first meter would be easy to dodge, like a blade, because this part is swung not far from the hand that guides it. However, the end of the pole will move a lot quicker. Augmented reaction time or Force-assisted movements won't help much if the shooter can just erratically wave it around to blanket an area.

Well, same can be said for a heavy stubber or even an autogun. I will point the gun towards you and follow you while you dodge and I'll touch you.

in SW there have been numerous ships capable of destroying a planet, let alone oneshot a capital ship (like the flag ship of griveous in clone wars)

Every imperial ship larger that light cruiser can perform Exterminatus. And every Imperial sector have dosens of them.

In SW there are no lances that's true but consider that they have torpedoes and capital sized turrets, i don't see how lances are better

Imperium ships have torpedoes too, and capital sized turrets are main weapon (macrobatteries).

have surely better shielding not relying on armour to protect heir hulls as much as 40k ships do (and if you consider mon calamari dreadnoughts that's even a wider gap between shield tech).

No. Not they have better shielding but they relying on shields. SW ships and stations are VERY fragile in WH terms - one lucky shot can destroy SW ship for good. It's impossible in Imperium, because ships here have meters of armor.

And yes, Imperial ships have void shields too. Multilayered, when you're speak about capitals.

The shielding tech on capital ships is so good that usually in sw you need wings of bombers to fly under the shields of a ship to deal significant damage.

It's not "shielding is good". It's "weapons are bad". That's why you need lances - to make a massive ONE hit to overload shields.

SW came to this sweet idea only in the last two years of Sidius Empire.

As i wrote comparing psy powers to the force is like comparing magick in a low-magick setting with forgotten realms magick, they could do the same thing mostly but on a very different scale.

You understand you're speaking about setting where psykers teleports through half of a galaxy, one psyker disrupting warp moving in full Galaxy or one psyker mind controlling planets at once, and call it "low-magick setting", yes? Sidius is a puppy when you compare him with Varan the Undefeatable. Not to mention such persons as Magnus the Red.

Cortosis is a froce reactive material and is resistant because it shorts out the lightsabre.

Nope, it isn't. It's just a mesh that can conduct and ignore blaster bolts, that's are the same as lightsaber beam. Lightsaber itself isn't magic, non-force-user can use it. It's just not rational when you haven't jedi prescience.

But it can be useful instrument - such as Han Solo proved.

In sw universe when a material can't be cut by a lightsabre is actually considered exotic and rare, they are the exception.

When lightsabers was a serious problem - in Revan's time, for example - every damned thug from low-level band had a melee weapon that can't be cut by a lightsaber.

Every. Damned. Thug.

I saw The Force Awakens and I can honestly say if you can stop a plasma shot in midair, bolter shells are not going to be a problem.

The really important question, however, is how many creative ways can inhabitants of the 40K Universe slaughter Jar Jar Binks?

Well, yes, but Jedi haven't augmented reaction time, and they was discouraged to try use their own reaction time for dodge even in New Hope. Jedi used prescience, they just know how you will wave your beam.

And with melta you can't really create area of damage such as flamethrower can, such as "yes, you know what I'm planning to ignite - everything around; dodge THIS, you son..." Well. It's not really helping too because Jedi can JUMP, but it's better.

That knowledge won't help them, though, simply because you could move the beam faster than they can move. Just waving it erratically would allow you to cover a large area. Same as with a flamethrower, the only way someone could reliably escape such an attack would be plot armour moves like we've seen from Yoda in Episode III, though even that would depend on the environment.

shrapnels from a 20mm explosive round are serious buisness: germans during ww2 used minegeschoss (high-explosive-fragmentation) as their main air-combat rounds and a heavy bomber could be destroyed with 5-6 hits from a 20mm cannon. As soon as the projectile hits the blade it will explode filling the air with shrpanels and high temperature air (the explosion is enough to ignite wood and the shrapnels are able to pass even armoured glass), the result to me is a dead jedi or a very injured one.

The thing is, you seem to assume that the shrapnels would pass through the blade in order to hit the Jedi, whereas I assume they'd just burn up like just about any other material hit by the weapon. There would certainly be shrapnel (unless the projectile detonates inside the plasma field), but I think it's likely that it would only be propelled in a direction away from the blade.

That being said, there are some difficult-to-assess factors here, such as how exactly the blade is swung to block the shot (as this would affect shrapnel trajectory, possibly threatening the Jedi's legs), or whether the magnetic field that keeps the plasma contained would "block" the shot instead of allowing it to enter the plasma field.

I like to look at these things more from a situational and narrative standpoint opposed to the simplified rules the tabletop game gives us.

If we look at other resources from GW, like Inquisitor, which is a D100 game, we see how much stronger a Powerarmour is.

Also the movie "Marine Rules" given by GW show how narrative Marines would play, where a squadron of 5 marines would be about 1500 pts worth.

Even in Inquisitor (which I also like to use as a resource), lasguns can penetrate PA, though. I think the chance was actually similar to the TT, and the background description in the codex fluff. But one obvious problem Inquisitor has is that its weapons seem too reliant on random damage; it's entirely possible for a lascannon to cause less damage than a simple bow , just because the weapon stats mostly adjust the number of dice rolled instead of adding "fixed" damage at the end.

As for the Movie Marines rules, it's important to note that the "Movie" part of the name has a reason to be there. I mean, you even have Stunt Doubles.

The question would then be whether we're trying to compare the fiction - Movie Marines vs Movie Jedi - or try to find out how things would actually work if the setting was real rather than a scripted flick where the good guys always win.

Well, same can be said for a heavy stubber or even an autogun. I will point the gun towards you and follow you while you dodge and I'll touch you.

You've got a point there. Though both of these weapons do not produce a "beam", just a series of bullets, and if you auto-fire the entire clip you will have to reload quickly (at least with the autogun). You'll probably be able to hit with one or two bullets, but then your target will have an opportunity to engage you as you can't shoot again. Then again, maybe those one or two bullets are all that you need.

On the flipside, the melta generates a constant beam too thick for the blade to block, and easy to adjust in extremely quick motion at distance.

Another advantage of 40k weaponry that springs to mind is rate of fire, though. Unless you count the silly "laser ARs" from the new Battlefront game, SW blaster rifles shoot semi-auto, which makes their shots easier to block due to lower ROF. Any auto-firing 40k gun, on the other hand, could simply overwhelm this defense.

Maybe that's another reason why projectile guns are popular with SW's Jedi Hunters, as Nirgal mentioned?

... aw man, now y'all got me to engage in something I declared futile from the beginning.

I saw The Force Awakens and I can honestly say if you can stop a plasma shot in midair, bolter shells are not going to be a problem.

SPOILER! Burn the Heretic!

But to be honest that was the first time such a thing happened in any Star Wars resource (especially in cannon) and this thread started before the movie came out.

So yes, said Force User could stop bolter rounds mid air, but up until now he is the only one to know this techniquie

Spoilers indeed! Although it does make sense, given how their skillset works. If you can use the Force to throw people/droids, or lift an X-Wing out of a swamp ...

Though as far as I'm concerned, every Jedi is individual in their fighting style and the "tricks" they use/learn, so it's not something that should apply to everyone either.

Well, yes, but Jedi haven't augmented reaction time, and they was discouraged to try use their own reaction time for dodge even in New Hope. Jedi used prescience, they just know how you will wave your beam.

And with melta you can't really create area of damage such as flamethrower can, such as "yes, you know what I'm planning to ignite - everything around; dodge THIS, you son..." Well. It's not really helping too because Jedi can JUMP, but it's better.

That knowledge won't help them, though, simply because you could move the beam faster than they can move. Just waving it erratically would allow you to cover a large area. Same as with a flamethrower, the only way someone could reliably escape such an attack would be plot armour moves like we've seen from Yoda in Episode III, though even that would depend on the environment.

The Jedi could always do what Obi-Wan does here at 1:45: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uttiQ0LreX0&t=1m45s&ab_channel=XenoVR Which answers both the flame AND automatic fire problems.

Also again it depends on the Jedi we use. There's plenty of Jedi out there that could absolutely move faster than the Space Marine could move the beam in Legends.

That wasn't really a spoiler, Finding out Jar Jar is running the first order was the big spoiler to me.

Obi Wan really doesn't look in control of his emotions in that clip.....

Okay then another question, the Galactic Empire and the Imperium of Man join forces in an attempt to finally take over the galaxy for the glory of mankind. The rebels with their heavy reliance on alien allies are forced to join forces with the Tau Empire for the greater good of all.

Who wins? And yes very subjective and bases on personal opinion

Obi Wan really doesn't look in control of his emotions in that clip.....

Okay then another question, the Galactic Empire and the Imperium of Man join forces in an attempt to finally take over the galaxy for the glory of mankind. The rebels with their heavy reliance on alien allies are forced to join forces with the Tau Empire for the greater good of all.

Who wins? And yes very subjective and bases on personal opinion

The Empire/Imperium, because the Tau are annoying as hell and need some Exterminating!

Obi Wan really doesn't look in control of his emotions in that clip.....

Kenobi's pretty much the sole Jedi in the series outside of Yoda, who is always in control of his emotions. He's pretty much the posterboy for Jedi restraint and detachment, even in the most extreme of circumstances. Qui-Gon's death and Anakin's fall were pretty much the only things to ever ruffle his feathers. When bad **** happens he accepts it, lets it go, and then focuses on the problem at hand.

His fight with Durge certainly wasn't anything out of the ordinary, and in a scene shortly after, Kenobi even manages to crack a few jokes after defeating Durge a second time.

That knowledge won't help them, though, simply because you could move the beam faster than they can move. Just waving it erratically would allow you to cover a large area. Same as with a flamethrower, the only way someone could reliably escape such an attack would be plot armour moves like we've seen from Yoda in Episode III, though even that would depend on the environment.

Well, plot armor (and weapon) is the very definition of Force.

Spoilers indeed! Although it does make sense, given how their skillset works. If you can use the Force to throw people/droids, or lift an X-Wing out of a swamp ...

It's also comparable to Satine in The Old Republic 'parrying' a lightsaber blade with her bare hands in the opening movie "Hope".

Equally, it's no different to a gifted astartes librarian using a kine shield like the 'telekine dome' power. Phosis T'Kar - probably one of the most potent telekinetics in the Warhammer 40k universe* - was able to block titan-class weapons fire with such a barrier.

Equally, in the Ravenor series, you have a witch who pulls the classic 'parrying bullets' trick with a sword. Harlon Nayl is impressed, but his response is a genuinely curious "how do you do on full auto?".

The answer is "not well".

* Barring Daemons and Alpha-level-but-dribbling-pants-on-head-insane psykers, anyway

Equally, in the Ravenor series, you have a witch who pulls the classic 'parrying bullets' trick with a sword. Harlon Nayl is impressed, but his response is a genuinely curious "how do you do on full auto?".

Order 66 shows us that Jedi are not very well on full auto too.

Equally, in the Ravenor series, you have a witch who pulls the classic 'parrying bullets' trick with a sword. Harlon Nayl is impressed, but his response is a genuinely curious "how do you do on full auto?".

Order 66 shows us that Jedi are not very well on full auto too.

Depends on the Jedi. Obi-Wan Kenobi held up against an entire army for several hours, by himself while drugged in the novel "Labyrinth of Evil" (albeit he was singed from hundreds of near misses). Darth Maul also held up against against two heavy-repeating blasters at point blank range with relative ease in one of his novels.

Equally, in the Ravenor series, you have a witch who pulls the classic 'parrying bullets' trick with a sword. Harlon Nayl is impressed, but his response is a genuinely curious "how do you do on full auto?".

Order 66 shows us that Jedi are not very well on full auto too.

I think that was more due to surprise at the betrayal, than the auto fire.

Obi-Wan Kenobi held up against an entire army for several hours, by himself while drugged in the novel "Labyrinth of Evil" (albeit he was singed from hundreds of near misses).

Obi-Wan Kenobi was the best Order master in defensive form of lightsaber combat, Soresu. There was not a Jedi who could deflect blaster attacks better.

I think that was more due to surprise at the betrayal, than the auto fire.

I'd love to see a showdown between The Emperor of Mankind (pre-Golden Throne) and either Yoda or Palpatine.