Tis the season of Star Wars and as a tribute to it, who would win in universe vs. universe battles. Space Marine vs. Jedi, X-Wing vs. Storm Talon, who wins? Any other match ups welcome.

1st, I like your profile pic
2nd, I thought about that alot.


First Jedi vs Space Marine

Powers of a Jedi:
They have incredible Agillity, they can even reflect blaster bolts with their Lightsaber, sometimes even with the Hands
Then the force. Every Jedi would be a Psyker Padawans maybe at lvl1, while yoda would probably hang around lvl3-4
However they have none of the drawbacks of a Psyker (Daemonic incursions)

Weapons of a Jedi:
Every Jedi owns a Lightsaber, an incredible powerfull meele weapon that cuts through almost everything given enough time.
Other than that Jedi don't use any weapon and nearly 0 gear.

Drawbacks of a Jedi:
Jedi are peacefull, they kill only if they have to and they restrict their almost limitless power to mostly nonlethal tecniques.
Which doesn't mean that they are less powerfull then Sith, but Jedi simply try to avoid fighting and are therefore not particularly good at it.
Also they don't wear any kind of armour (they rely on agility) which is maybe a problem in this fight


Powes of a Space Marine:
Every Space Marine is trained for War and they are basically weapons of Massdestruction.
The killcount of one marine usually goes in the thousands and they live very long (some up to a thousand years) so they collect more and more experience in battle
Space Marines are physically augmented. They are much stronger, faster and more resillient than every ordinary human.
A Marine stands 250cm tall and a body trained by a brutal training routine every day.
Bones so dense it takes incredible force (you get it? )to break them, the skull is even bulletproof to ordinary weaponry.
Furthermore they have several extra organs which allows them to survive under the harshest conditions and even survive lethal blows with ease
That is without the...

Armour of a Space Marine:
The MKVII Power Armour consist out of thick plates of Ceramite and Durasteel.
Ceramite is a ceramic material that has heat absorbing properties.
Furthermore it enhances the strenght, speed and stamina of a Marine, due to a neural link, that ensures that the armour mimics and enhances the movements of the wearer, thus a Marine is not slowed down by his armour.
In some lore elements it even projects a weak energy field which absorbs minor damage (like in halo)

Weapons of a Space Marine:
Boltweapons: Self propelled Projectile Weapons that detonate after impact, meaning that a hit guarantees a gruesome outcome, as the detonation basically happens inside the body.
Chainweapons: Brutal Weapons which tear through armour and skin.
Powerweapons: Weapons that are surrounded by an energy field (cannot be destroyed by Lightsabers), they come in various forms and shapes and cut through the thickest armour as if it was paper.

Drawbacks of a Space Marine:
They have no way to protect themselves from the Force
Mind Tricks wouldn't work on them, as every Space Marine has a strong will, but to protect against force attacks one would need a Scriptor (or a Collar of Khorne..), who on the other hand would be nomed by the Warp at one point.
However Space Marines are honourbound and have different doctrines which may or may not bite some chapters in the ass.

Side Notes:
Space Marines have no way to defend against Ranged attacks, as they cannot deflect Bolterrounds, due to the explosive nature.
If the Space Marines would bunker down, they would win, however Jedi in close range to a Tactical squad would chop them up really good, Flamers would probably not help, because the Force

Also the Space Marine Armour would probably be able to take quite a beating from a Lightsaber and would not be cut open in one slash, except brute force would be applied.



Full Scale Gound War:
Space Marines win, hands down.
Jedi have relative small numbers to begin with and we see how the clones dealt with them, while it was due to deception, the clone army would probably still win in an face to face battle and we are not taking in account that Space Marines are better soldiers than the clones (and even more in number)

A Duel:
I focus one 1vs1 battles in close combat:

• Jedi Knight vs Sergeant= depends on the weapon of the Sergeant, everything else than a Powersword (due to speed) or Powespear (due to range) would probably loose against the superior Speed of a Jedi, these would compede pretty well, I would call it a Draw
  
• Jedi Master vs Vanguard= Jedi Masters are Masters of the Force and of Lightsaber combat. I don't see how the Vanguard would compete against the Force powers without a Jumppack, however once they are close this would be a tough one, enraged by the death of their brothers they would probably simply power through the Jedi Defenses and ignor Lethal wounds.
  But in a one on one fight, the Master would win.
  
• Jedi Master vs Captain= I'd say this one is interesting. Captains are Space Marines with hundreds of years of battle experience an with the absolute best equiptment.
  Where the Vanguard Marines may struggle with the force, the Captains superior skill and equiptment allows him to get close enough to get in close combat.
  Both would test the skill of one another, but even the greatest Jedi Master only knows one or two Lightsaber Forms, the Captain would adapt faster and would aim for the weakness of the Jedi
  May it be finesse, or simple brute force
  
• Councilmember vs Captain= We are talking legendary people here. Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, these dudes can collide ships with the force or push Droid Armies of a Bridge. They are also not affraid to apply brute force when needed, as they are in one with the force.
  As the Masters and Knight might struggle at times, not to fall to the Dark Side (and therefore hold back) the council Members on the other hand don't do so, and this would overpower the Captain, especially since he probably wouldn't be able to find a gap in the Forms of those individuals, as ther may simply be none.
  
• Councilmember vs Chaptermaster= Now we are talking. The fight of giants. every one is a named Character. A Chaptermaster is the finest Space Marine out of 10 Captains and personally choosen by the previous Chaptermaster (and trained)
  There is no Marine that would dare speak up to them, except maybe another Chaptermasters maybe
  This one would be hard and really comes down to who fights against who.
  However the average Chaptermaster would probably win against an average Councillmember (whose powers may vary pretty strong)
  

There you have it, this was a bit long and I'm sorry for that, but I believe that a Space Marine is stronger than a Jedi, simply because an Angel of Death is a Train of Power.

Thanks, and WOW you certainly did.

No problem, however I would say the Star Wars universe has Air/Space superiority, since the Empire is pretty bad at developing new Tech and maintainig it.

While the Star Wars universe constantly developes new Technology, Darth Vader Super Star Destroyer i.e. Dwarfs every Imperial vessel, except for Flagships of the Space Marine Legions (of which only a 3 or so still exist)

I'll be the spoilsport and point out that comparing entities from different franchises is pretty much impossible, as there is very little in the way of accurately translating the effects of various weapons and powers from one setting to another -- the result is almost universally just a biased opinion, and with this forum being full of 40k fans, I think it's clear which direction most people would swing.

The first response to OP is already a pretty good example. Not only are there quite a lot of examples of Space Marines being influenced by mind tricks in spite of their allegedly strong willpower (*cough*HorusHeresy*cough*), I'm also puzzled as to why we should assume that Marine power armour is somehow resilient against lightsabers - plasma blades - when 40k's own plasma weapons penetrate them with ease. Not to mention that the Force is an entirely different concept than the Warp.

And that's not even getting into the tricky issue of 40k not having a unified canon. If Space Marine Captains truly had "hundreds of years of battle experience", I suppose there are very few captains around in GW's take on the setting, given the lifespans we've been given in codex fluff. And with Star Wars, we'd be faced with having to decide whether to go with the official new canon or the now-defunct yet much more detailed Expanded Universe...

I'm sorry, but whenever I've seen threads such as these, they always boil down to what someone's favourite army is, simply because that's pretty much the only value we even have to work with.

I'll be the spoilsport and point out that comparing entities from different franchises is pretty much impossible, as there is very little in the way of accurately translating the effects of various weapons and powers from one setting to another -- the result is almost universally just a biased opinion, and with this forum being full of 40k fans, I think it's clear which direction most people would swing.

The first response to OP is already a pretty good example. Not only are there quite a lot of examples of Space Marines being influenced by mind tricks in spite of their allegedly strong willpower (*cough*HorusHeresy*cough*), I'm also puzzled as to why we should assume that Marine power armour is somehow resilient against lightsabers - plasma blades - when 40k's own plasma weapons penetrate them with ease. Not to mention that the Force is an entirely different concept than the Warp.

And that's not even getting into the tricky issue of 40k not having a unified canon. If Space Marine Captains truly had "hundreds of years of battle experience", I suppose there are very few captains around in GW's take on the setting, given the lifespans we've been given in codex fluff. And with Star Wars, we'd be faced with having to decide whether to go with the official new canon or the now-defunct yet much more detailed Expanded Universe...

I'm sorry, but whenever I've seen threads such as these, they always boil down to what someone's favourite army is, simply because that's pretty much the only value we even have to work with.

I would not agree with you here.

We know a fair share of stuff in the Star Wars Universe works from the movies, maybe adding new Cannon, just so we know that Lightsabers work with Crystals.

Then we know from the Codices and Rulebooks how basic Warhammer 40k stuff works, without relenting on some of the poorly written extra background.

It takes a bit work, but to figure out how certain thing interact is anything else than impossible.

While it still comes down to opinion, but in the end every human statement does, so I find this comment rather obsolete.

I.e. you give the example of Space Marines being influenced, which they indeed did, by the Warp. (which was to be honest, harder than a psyker waving his hand saying "pray to chaos", but that's another topic)

Later you say that the Force is something completely different than the Warp, which it is.

So if we seperate the force from the warp, a Marine may be immune to Mind Tricks, but not to the Warp.

In my previous post I simply made a comparisson on how a Jedis Forceabillities would probably stand in the Warhammer Rules.

Then Lightsabers, a Lightsaber is shown to cut through everything which is not made of energy, however it takes time to cut through thicker material.

An Energysword is described as ignoring armour, which is a significant difference, so my assumption that thick Powerarmour plates may take more than a light swing to be cut through is not without basis, especially since ceramite is described as to absorb heat and energy (not enough to be resistant against plasma weapons though)

So in my opinion, if you want to compare two Universes, you can do that if you put enough efford into building a basis on which you base them on.

It may be, like we say in Germany "Comparing Apples with Pears", but you still can compare Apples with Pears in the real world.

While it still comes down to opinion, but in the end every human statement does, so I find this comment rather obsolete.

Well, it's not obsolete -- if we'd be talking about a singular universe with fixed rules (be it 40k, or Star Wars, or even our real world), we would have actual facts and hard numbers to guide our interpretation. However, without a way to accurately determine how Item A may interact with Item B, all we're left with is a wild guess likely flavoured with a heavy bias.

So if we seperate the force from the warp, a Marine may be immune to Mind Tricks, but not to the Warp.

Indeed, it is possible. But there is no reason to assume it must be so.

Personally , I even agree with you on this bit, as the resistance seems to be born of a similar source -- in 40k, it is conviction/belief that renders warriors like the Sororitas or some Marines resilient against manipulation, whereas in Star Wars, it is said that Mind Tricks only work on those "weak of will" (which seems to be the majority though).

I just wouldn't be able to make a convincing argument from it, so I prefer to leave this one untouched so as to not end up with a list of arguments based on "might", "could" and "it's possible that". Especially as the very same similarity in mental fortitude can just as well be construed to oppose that theory: someone who does not have the conviction to resist the Warp may well not be able to resist Jedi Mind Tricks either.

Then Lightsabers, a Lightsaber is shown to cut through everything which is not made of energy, however it takes time to cut through thicker material.

*adjusts nerd glasses*

Actually, the time to cut is more of a result of material composition than thickness, as evidenced by various Jedi having little issue slicing through entire droids or cutting open AT-AT walkers with a single slash. There are some rare materials such as phrik or cortosis capable of resisting plasma blades, which made them popular as armour among Force users.

Meanwhile, 40k armour is neither particularly thick (according to Codex Angels of Death, Space Marine plating has 1 inch at the thickest point), nor is it especially resilient against plasma weapons. Any attack with a plasma pistol or gun is an automatic penetration (AP 2 vs Sv 3+). Indeed, plasma weapons shoot straight through even Terminator armour.

Of course it could be argued that lightsabers must not be as powerful as plasma weapons, even though they operated on the same principles (intense thermal damage caused by burning plasma), but that only furthers my argument that it's next to impossible to draw accurate comparisons.

There just isn't a lot of common ground, even if I agree with you that falling back to the hard numbers presented in GW's rulebooks and codices would be the best approach possible under the circumstances. What's missing would be a sort of "rosetta stone" to translate values from one ruleset into another (perhaps using one of Star Wars' P&P rulesets), but without that basis, all we're left with is interpretation based on personal preferences and scripted fiction.

I usually enjoy comparisons, but only if I can find said "rosetta stone".

Just for the hell of it, let me weigh in here: *Borrows Lynata's nerd glasses* A power sword is and was always intended to be roughly analogous to the Jedi lightsaber (Like so many other tropes of 40k). Given that, I believe that using the powersword is probably a better comparison than the aformentioned Plasma weapon. I remember hearing or reading somewhere years ago that the Powersword was only depicted as a sword to avoid Lucasfilm's VERY agressive copyright lawyers at the time! (Maybe that's where GW got the idea!) If that's the case than the lightsaber has a pen of 3 not 2 indicating it would NOT automatically penetrate Powered armor. I also remember certain heavier armors in the SW universe having at least some protective value against the lightsaber (Notably, the Cortosis weaves of the Old republic and Darth Vader's armor.) Given these factoids I believe it is not unreasonable to assume that Space Marine or SoB powered armor would also offer a similar amount of protection.

As to the power of the force/warp: Again, given the similarities in their depictions I would say it depends heavily on the Universe you are operating in as a base! A 40k Psyker would LOVE the fact their abilities do not endanger whole worlds like they do in 40k. Similarily, A Jedi or Sith would be dismayed at the potential consequences of their abilities in the 40k universe! After that, the function of Psyker abilities and force users are pretty close. Given the similarity I have no reason to believe that a given Space Marine would be especially vulnerable to the Jedi mind trick. Remember that just the chance to become an Astartes requires a will at least as strong as any successful candidate for the Special forces! No one who understands what that entails would accuse these people of being "Weak willed"!

Finally, we come to a Comparison: The Space Marine is undeniably physically superior to a Jedi but their Force abilities and mobility can cancel most of that advantage. As Ghost points out, after that it is a matter of which Jedi is going against which Space Marine. For a run of the Mill Jedi Knight against a "Standard" (Read: Tactical) Marine, I believe it would go either way! The Bolter may or may not be deflected by the Lightsaber but in a Melee fight, the Jedi has the advantage. It's not an absolute though since the Marine's innate toughness and armor would provide for quite a few "upset" victories! The biggest advantage the Marines would have at this level is that the Jedi tend to fight as individuals or in pairs whereas Space Marines fight as squads and companies. Given there overall equal footing with the Jedi their numbers would definitely be a factor! I don't think anyone is silly enough to believe that Stormtroopers or even the Clone troopers are any match for the Astartes! Once you get further up the Ranks of both Marines and Jedi, I believe things would equal out. As Individual characters tend to have more and more Power weapons the advantage of the lightsaber is pretty well nullified since I have to believe the energy field of a power weapon would allow for parrying and or at least prevent weapon destruction by the lightsaber! Skill levels would also see greater parity when you get into the ranks of SM officers vs. Jedi masters/council members.

Overall, call it a draw!

Except the Force is completely different than psychic energies.

Psykers call upon powers fished out of the Immaterium or Warp, an alternate plane of existence. Force users act very much on and within the material realm.

Psykers might function similarly to Force users, but the traditions of Psykers are based on Western philosophies of duality (eg the body and soul are separate entities and therefore the spiritual and mundane are separate) versus the Force's more Eastern Taoist/Buddhist philosophies of oneness/unity (the mind directly impacts the body and everything around it).

ETA: I think the closest reasonable facsimile to a Jedi in WH40k is a Grey Knight. Supporting evidence: Grey Knights can use psychic powers without fear of summoning daemons and lightsabers have a nasty tendency of killing people even when struck in places that such weapons shouldn't normally be lethal - and most of the time when they are less lethal is when the user doesn't want to kill their target. Rather like the Grey Knights' Force Weapons. Plus we have distinctive garb (Grey Knights power armor, Jedi robes) and weapons (Force halberds, lightsabers).

Alpha Plus Psyker vs Jedi Master? ;-)

Turn 1: Jedi's head explodes.

The end.

Alpha Plus Psyker vs Jedi Master? ;-)

Turn 1: Jedi's head explodes.

The end.

I think you mean:

Turn 1: 50/50 shot at either Jedi or Psyker's head exploding.

The end.

Well, that's perils of the warp for you.

I would also point out that whilst we can assume a lightsaber can go through powered armour (because it goes through freakin' everything except ridiculously exotic materials - that's the canon point of it - and because plasma weapons in 40k also reliably do a number on it), 40k does have one trick up its sleeve that star wars generally lacks (save in computer game adaptions) in the form of personal force fields. Common they're not, but they're not unheard of, either; every marine officer generally has the option of such, and since they stand a chance of stopping a turbo-laser shot (which are actually not a bad comparison size-wise with the star wars weapon of the same name!) then a lightsaber is well within acceptable threat parameters.

Note that the one time Jedi came up against something similar (shielded droidekas) in the films, their response was to cheese it.

Hmm, one of the best ways to figure out comparisons is to take them up against the enemies of the other. I'm not sure how well space marines would do against a droid army. Think about it, thousands of soulless humanoid machines using energy weapons attacking space marines, some of them with force fields. If only there was a game we could use to simulate it.

Wouldn't a lightsaber make bolt rounds explode on 'defelction'? In which case I don't see it ending well for them!

Yeah, bolt rounds are loaded with explosives, so introducing plasma to them? Not a good idea... Las weapons, chain weapons, plasma weapons... Not so good against lightsabers. Explosives and flame/melta weapons, though? Or the wonderful power weapon... Cutting off an activated Power Fist would be some trick.

You could actually force deflect (TK push) bolter rounds. Which be really nasty if you did it as they left the bolter.

A power sword is and was always intended to be roughly analogous to the Jedi lightsaber (Like so many other tropes of 40k).

Maybe in terms of design/look, but not function. Plasma is plasma!

Remember that just the chance to become an Astartes requires a will at least as strong as any successful candidate for the Special forces! No one who understands what that entails would accuse these people of being "Weak willed"!

Sidenote: According to the Index Astartes in WD #247, it's actually more like the opposite. Recruits have to be "susceptible to hypnotic suggestion", otherwise hypno-indoctrination and even the development of certain implants will fail. Being too strong-willed or too intelligent can disqualify you from becoming a Marine!

It's a moot point, though, as the subsequent indoctrination would basically "boost" this deficiency, so the final Marine would still end up having a stronger will. I'm just mentioning this here because it's an interesting aspect of recruitment, and for the sake of completion.

Well, technically Star Wars blasters are actually plasma weapons, and their armour is resistent to projectile weapons...

I mean, in melee an Astartes would almost certainly win almost any encounter, given that they could just grab them and use their superhuman strength to twist them into a new shape, Wookiee-style. In ranged combat, on the other hand, it could well be that all a Stormtrooper needs to do would be to point their weapon and pull the trigger. It'd probably take several shots due to the Astartes' redundant physiology, but it's not like blaster rifles come with tiny ammo clips.

That is, of course, if we assume that plasma = plasma, simply because it's one of the few things both franchises seem to have in common. As initially outlined, this depends so much on interpretation that such comparisons will lack any real scientific basis and instead fall back entirely on opinions, preferences and gut-feelings.

Yeah, bolt rounds are loaded with explosives, so introducing plasma to them? Not a good idea... Las weapons, chain weapons, plasma weapons... Not so good against lightsabers. Explosives and flame/melta weapons, though? Or the wonderful power weapon... Cutting off an activated Power Fist would be some trick.

I vaguely recall flamer weapons actually being a rather popular choice against Force users, too.

There's probably a Force trick to redirect the flames, but I reckon not every Jedi will have learned to do so. Either way, against a light saber, it'd pretty much be the ideal weapon. Meltas would be even better!

Recruits have to be "susceptible to hypnotic suggestion", otherwise hypno-indoctrination and even the development of certain implants will fail. Being too strong-willed or too intelligent can disqualify you from becoming a Marine!

Hypnotic suggestion is not a question of being weak-willed. It's a question of having the vocabulary, the perception and the will to accept said suggestions and control self's subconscious into not rebelling against the ideas that are suggested.

In some way, knowing that you are overtly hypnosed and being able to let it through is something hard for most of people, which explains why a lot of people aren't affected. Everyone can be, but some needs harder work.

Well, the exact wording was "susceptible". I'm not a native English speaker, but from how I understand this term it's less about acceptance and more about vulnerability.

To me seems to be comparing lord of the rings to d&d. The power levels are too different.

Lightsabers cut anything that isn't shielded, made of cortosis or empowered with sith alchemy. So a power armour isn't going to protect against it.

Force powers can do a lot more than psy powers, just think of force push... a jedi can throw a space marine with only his mind, only force users usually can counter force powers.

Jedi can deflect energy bolts but we know that energy weapons in sw do not shoot at the speed of light, so i doubt jedi could deflect las weapons. For bolters they can only dodge but not deflect, jedi hunters use explosive shells too.

Imho a jedi will kill easly a spacemarine as soon as he maneges to get close enough, like a 5th lvl d&d wizard would win the battle of pelennor with a couple of fireballs.

For spaceship combat sw wins too... many ships in sw universe can oneshot an entire planet, that is enough to me too see the power gap between 40k and sw.

Meltas would be even better!

I don't think so. Melta have narrow beam of superheated plasma so it's easer to dodge it if you have superagility.

To be honest I believe it's quite simple to imagine. Jedi Knights are not so far from Eldar Warlocks - extra dodge, battle precognition, fluid fast moves, psy additions to combat. Ah, yes, they have a habit to foresee. And Marines counts "kill an Eldar witch" as a feat that should be rewarded.

But it means Jedi realise all his potential and use it wisely, not as they used to.

SW tactics and combat ability is very, very low.

As far as the Power Armor vs. Lightsaber thing goes, Power Armor is primarily made of Ceramite; Ceramite is explicitly an extremely tough, heat-resistant material. I'd say it is up there with cortosis (or at least phrik) in resisting a lightsaber.

Force powers do not do more than psyker powers; the Force is Telekine and Telepathy for the most part (with some exceptions). There's other schools for Psykers. On top of that, throwing a fully armored Space Marine is going to be hard, and probably not do much damage.

For one, I think it is a toss-up of equipment and who has the jump on who. If the Space Marine gets a weapon into the Jedi, they're likely dead.

Secondly, a 5th Level Wizard would definitely NOT win the Battle of Pelennor with a couple of fireballs. A fireball, if it hits perfectly, kills at most 40 enemies on the ground. There were thousands.

Force powers do not do more than psyker powers; the Force is Telekine and Telepathy for the most part (with some exceptions). There's other schools for Psykers. On top of that, throwing a fully armored Space Marine is going to be hard, and probably not do much damage.

I don't think that there is a space marine that could stand up to Yoda.

Hmm. Does that make sense? The projectile would detonate at the blade, with the shrapnel that would threaten the target burning up in the plasma field. The only likely source of damage would be heat, but I doubt a bolt projectile would cause that much of an explosion.

The only Jedi hunters I know were the Fel-Empire's Knighthunters, but they used phrik-laced electrostaffs and sonic weaponry to deal with their quarry.

I don't think so. Melta have narrow beam of superheated plasma so it's easer to dodge it if you have superagility,

From how I understand melta weapons to work, though, they do not fire a single "pulse" but rather an ongoing stream. You may be able to dodge the initial impact, but all the attacker has to do is swing the barrel around.

It's like trying to dodge someone who is aiming a water hose at you. Except that the water is a stream of supraheated particles.

As far as the Power Armor vs. Lightsaber thing goes, Power Armor is primarily made of Ceramite; Ceramite is explicitly an extremely tough, heat-resistant material. I'd say it is up there with cortosis (or at least phrik) in resisting a lightsaber.

Apparently not heat-resistant to do anything against plasma weapons, though, which a lightsaber is.

The protective properties of power armour are often exaggerated even within 40k. I mean, it does not even protect reliably against a las pistol, although it is of course better than what the common soldier has available. Even a flamethrower is capable of cooking the wearer, it just isn't a guaranteed kill.