10 hours ago, Endersai said:

the complaints about TFA as derivate etc seem to ignore ANH = Hidden Fortress and both TFA and ANH are Lucasian takes on the nonomyth...

Naw, there's far more flaws with VII than just hitting all the major plot points of New Hope. Here's a very quick summation of everything I dont like about VII

No, it’s not unwatchable like Ghostbusters 16 or Batmanslaughter vs Space Jesus, but it just does nothing for me. And it’s not that the movie hits all the story beats that New Hope does.

1) I can’t give a f about any of the characters. Chrome Stormtrooper wannabe badass? Whiny emo Vader? Big Holographic Dude? Ginger Tarkin? Nope - none of the bad guys work for me. When you get to the good guy side, it’s a bit better, but I really just don’t care about any of them. (This, by the way, has all been sorted out by VIII - Kylo, for just one example, has some serious meat to work with now. But in the context of JUST that one movie, the characters are very, very weak)

And at least Vice Admiral Redshirt Dangerhair had some lines. Those planets that got nuked? They didn't even have names (and I mean in on screen. Of course they have names in the ancilary material. Ice Cream Maker Guy on Bespin has a name for gods sake). Bye bye Freema Agyeman looking lady. We hardly knew ye.

1B) I hated the whole Who is Rey? Who is Snoke that JJ and his goddamned Mystery Box was building up. Just tell the **** story, would you. Thank god that VIII got rid of all that nonsense.

2) JJ is a bad director. I’ll give you that Lucas is not a good people director, but he is a master at visual storytelling and knows how to edit. There’s no tension to the Trench Run climax, no pacing other that “Hit the gas, go, go go!” But then I have never liked any of JJ’s other projects, so this isn’t exactly a shocker to me.

3) The soundtrack stinks. I’ve listened to it over and over again, trying to find that hook - that “Into the trap” or “The Asteroid Field” or a “Duel of the Fates” moment, and aside from Ray’s theme (which is pretty solid), nothing there evokes any emotion.

4) It just doesn't feel like a Star Wars movie to me. Yeah, 1-3 had issues, but they felt like they belong to the others. R1? A bit weird, but not too off base. 8? Absolutely. E7? Not really.

5) And yes, it hits all the same story beats of New Hope. Worse than that, it was too safe. It smacked of the air of desperation. "We know you hated the prequels! These are the Star Wars that you remember! Come back! Love us again!"

It wasn't so much that it hit all the same beats as New Hope, but it did so with a wink-wink. "Hey, do you remember this line? And here's this thing you remember!" - there was a bit of that in E8, the message from Leia and so on, but it all felt organic, like it was a natural evolution.

49 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Naw, there's far more flaws with VII than just hitting all the major plot points of New Hope. Here's a very quick summation of everything I dont like about VII

No, it’s not unwatchable like Ghostbusters 16 or Batmanslaughter vs Space Jesus, but it just does nothing for me. And it’s not that the movie hits all the story beats that New Hope does.

1) I can’t give a f about any of the characters. Chrome Stormtrooper wannabe badass? Whiny emo Vader? Big Holographic Dude? Ginger Tarkin? Nope - none of the bad guys work for me. When you get to the good guy side, it’s a bit better, but I really just don’t care about any of them. (This, by the way, has all been sorted out by VIII - Kylo, for just one example, has some serious meat to work with now. But in the context of JUST that one movie, the charcters are very, very weak)

And at least Vice Admiral Redshirt Dangerhair had some lines. Those planets that got nuked? They didn't even have names (and I mean in on screen. Of course they have names in the ancilary material. Ice Cream Maker Guy on Bespin has a name for gods sake). Bye bye Freema Agyeman looking lady. We hardly knew ye.

1B) I hated the whole Who is Rey? Who is Snoke that JJ and his goddamned Mystery Box was building up. Just tell the **** story, would you. Thank god that VIII got rid of all that nonsense.

2) JJ is a bad director. I’ll give you that Lucas is not a good people director, but he is a master at visual storytelling and knows how to edit. There’s no tension to the climax, no pacing other that “Hit the gas, go, go go!” But then I have never liked any of JJ’s other projects, so this isn’t exactly a shocker to me.

3) The soundtrack stinks. I’ve listened to it over and over again, trying to find that hook - that “Into the trap” or “The Asteroid Field” or a “Duel of the Fates” moment, and aside from Ray’s theme (which is pretty solid), nothing there evokes any emotion.

4) It just doesn't feel like a Star Wars movie to me. Yeah, 1-3 had issues, but they felt like they belong to the others. R1? A bit weird, but not too off base. 8? Absolutely. E7? Not really.

5) And yes, it hits all the same story beats of New Hope. Worse than that, it was too safe. It smacked of the air of desperation. "We know you hated the prequels! These are the Star Wars that you remember! Come back! Love us again!"

It wasn't so much that it hit all the same beats as New Hope, but it did so with a wink-wink. "Hey, do you remember this line? And here's this thing you remember!" - there was a bit of that in E8, the message from Leia and so on, but it all felt organic, like it was a natural evolution.

Don't have likes anymore. You must stealing all my likes

11 hours ago, Desslok said:

And yes, it hits all the same story beats of New Hope. Worse than that, it was too safe. It smacked of the air of desperation. "We know you hated the prequels! These are the Star Wars that you remember! Come back! Love us again!"

It wasn't so much that it hit all the same beats as New Hope, but it did so with a wink-wink. "Hey, do you remember this line? And here's this thing you remember!" - there was a bit of that in E8, the message from Leia and so on, but it all felt organic, like it was a natural evolution.

If we're all generally agreed that Last Jedi shakes up some major themes (for better or worse, it was needed)... isn't there a danger that Abrams will do just this in the next movie?

Disney look at the split in the fanbase (which I think is fine; disagreement is a healthy thing) and decide that the next one will shamelessly recreate Return of the Jedi, beat by beat?

I'm happy with what I'm doing with my game, so I have no dog in this fight... But in consideration, I'm actually intrigued as to where things might go after Last Jedi, assuming they have the guts to continue its themes.

6 minutes ago, Maelora said:

If we're all generally agreed that Last Jedi shakes up some major themes (for better or worse, it was needed)... isn't there a danger that Abrams will do just this in the next movie?

Disney look at the split in the fanbase (which I think is fine; disagreement is a healthy thing) and decide that the next one will shamelessly recreate Return of the Jedi, beat by beat?

I'm happy with what I'm doing with my game, so I have no dog in this fight... But in consideration, I'm actually intrigued as to where things might go after Last Jedi, assuming they have the guts to continue its themes.

I think TFA’s hewing close to the original was calculated at every level. After the generally lukewarm response to the prequels, that familiarity was meant to get the audience comfortable and reassure them. It worked for some and not for others.

That LFL has signed Rian Johnson on to develop and shepherd a new trilogy indicates they’re happy with his work; that they didn’t kick him to the curb as they did with Colin Trevorrow and the initial directors of Solo indicates they’re fine with the decisions made in TLJ.

So, I don’t think there’s much danger of IX being a 100% nostalgia-fest. I’m guessing that it may well be a mix of the two.

6 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

I think TFA’s hewing close to the original was calculated at every level. After the generally lukewarm response to the prequels, that familiarity was meant to get the audience comfortable and reassure them. It worked for some and not for others.

That LFL has signed Rian Johnson on to develop and shepherd a new trilogy indicates they’re happy with his work; that they didn’t kick him to the curb as they did with Colin Trevorrow and the initial directors of Solo indicates they’re fine with the decisions made in TLJ.

So, I don’t think there’s much danger of IX being a 100% nostalgia-fest. I’m guessing that it may well be a mix of the two.

I think it's important to also point out that in these big tentpole franchises the ultimate decisions lie with the producers - Kathleen Kennedy for Star Wars and Kevin Feige for the MCU, to take another example. Sure, the directors have some level of say, but ultimately the producer (Kennedy in this case) has the final say on what happens. They guide the direction of things and where its going.

1 hour ago, StarkJunior said:

I think it's important to also point out that in these big tentpole franchises the ultimate decisions lie with the producers - Kathleen Kennedy for Star Wars and Kevin Feige for the MCU, to take another example. Sure, the directors have some level of say, but ultimately the producer (Kennedy in this case) has the final say on what happens. They guide the direction of things and where its going.

Indeed. I mentioned in the other thread that I think it’s amusing when people seem to believe Johnson was given free rein, especially since Kennedy has shown that she has no problem dismissing directors who aren’t in sync with LFL’s vision for the franchise, even if they’re already deep into production on a movie.

I think it’s safe to conclude that the story group has the major beats they want to hit mapped out. The directors have some discretion in how to get there, but if - say - TLJ didn’t include broken, curmudgeon Luke, the director would be out.

25 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

TLJ didn’t include broken, curmudgeon Luke, the director would be out.

That seems a little to broad, especially considering the way this stuff seems to be done, by allowing the director to make his pitch. The producers are still in command and charge and if they don't like something … but it does not seem like they or the story group hand out pillars for the coming story which needs to be included. More like stuff they want to see in tone and direction. They fired the guys from the Han Solo movie btw over that issue.

I think I will just link to one of Johnson's interviews were he describes how he developed the story.
http://www.businessinsider.de/star-wars-rian-johnson-interview-about-the-last-jedi-fan-backlash-2017-12